just guys being dudes [Patrick Barron]

The Title Of The Game Column Is Also It's Over Because It's Over Comment Count

Brian November 18th, 2019 at 1:32 PM

11/16/2019 – Michigan 44, Michigan State 10 – 8-2, 5-2 Big Ten

This, finally, is what the program that used to proudly proclaim that they brought "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness" with them has been reduced to:

“I think it was a little bit of poor class on their part, poor sportsmanship to come over to our sideline barking how they were,” Michigan State linebacker Tyriq Thompson said. “It comes with the game, with the rivalry. It is what it is. Still, it’s just terrible taste.”

Whining about the Michigan sideline waving to them, and asserting an advantage in "class" immediately after a game in which one of their defensive linemen was ejected for head-hunting Shea Patterson. Last year that same guy tried to injure Michigan players, twice.

This site doesn't go in for "class." Class is a way to complain that you got your ass beat and someone enjoyed doing it to you. As Spencer Hall has asserted, great teams taunt. The least interesting question in football is whether team X ran up the score. I don't want to hear it if the answer is no. Twist the knife.

It's not like Michigan State can work harder to beat Michigan. There's nowhere else to go. So show them where things are at.

[After the JUMP: where it's at]

-----------------------------

This is where things are at: without one of the most unlikely endings in college football history Mark Dantonio would be 1-4 against Jim Harbaugh. The 1 is a four-point win over John O'Korn. The three Ls are all by two scores or, in this case, five. In the most competitive of them MSU gained 94 yards of offense.

Michigan State is headed for a bowl sponsored by a suburb of Chicago if they can beat Maryland and Rutgers. Next year they lose seven starters from their defense, which has already flagged badly as the talent starts to run out. Dantonio is about to be deposed in a lawsuit from Curtis Blackwell. The aftermath of Blackwell being made the fall guy has cratered MSU recruiting, which has zero top-15 players in Michigan and zero top-20 players in Ohio as they trundle towards a recruiting class currently ranked behind Minnesota, Kansas, Georgia Tech, and Iowa State. Cincinnati, Purdue, Indiana, Maryland, and Kentucky have higher-rated commits in MSU's home state than MSU does. Six guys have already hit the eject button and headed for the portal.

Faced with a disastrous offense last year, Dantonio went the Brady Hoke route, firing nobody but rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Faced with clear evidence his quarterback was concussed against Illinois, Dantonio again went the Brady Hoke route, asserting in a press conference that everything was fine and no check was needed to be made only for the school's medical staff to assert he was lying in a statement issued hours after his press conference.

Michigan State's athletic director is a vastly unqualified internal hire who owes his job in part to being Dantonio's buddy. Bill Beekman is not going to fire Dantonio. If Dantonio does decide to pack it in, good luck having that guy convince a coach to sign up for a job in the same division as stable, winning editions of OSU, Michigan, and PSU—especially after MSU's fanbase now expects 10 wins instead of 7.

This is as good as it's going to get for Michigan State in the near future.

-----------------------------

This is the way Mark Dantonio deserves to go out. Punt/Counterpunt summed up the real legacy of his tenure:

That’s how you build a cult of personality. You convince people that applause, criticism, and outright neglect are all signs that things are working. It’s how you can get a Glenn Winston, a Donnie Corley, a Josh King, and Demetric Vance, an Austin Robertson, a Curtis Blackwell, a Delton Williams, a Chris L Rucker, a Demetrius Cooper, an LJ Scott, a Demetrious Cox, a MacGarrett Kings, a Jon Reschke, a Max Bullough, and a Joe Bachie. It’s how you can let Will Gholston play after he practiced some MMA mid-game, let Will Gholston play after he was knocked unconscious, or let Brian Lewerke play after getting knocked half-unconscious, then make three contradictory statements about it.

Anything goes as long as you beat Michigan. Finally, this culture has caught up to Michigan State. Finally, the program that spawned the above paragraph is looking for its fainting couch because it has nothing else to do. It took way too long but, finally, it's over.

Fake tough guys always get exposed. 

AWARDS

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[Bryan Fuller]

Known Friends And Trusted Agents Of The Week

you're the man now, dog

-2535ac8789d1b4991f1c37dee-a502-44d9

#1 Ronnie Bell. Nine catches, 150 yards, a fair number of those made by Bell himself after the catch. 42-yard slot fade was harder than it looked after the DB fell down; body control to catch that and keep his feet was excellent. Also a crucial part of Michigan's success attacking the perimeter as he absolutely leveled MSU DBs every time his blocking became relevant. On a per-involvement basis probably grades out higher than…

#2 Shea Patterson. But not by much. Patterson had a fair number of throws that weren't great and had his numbers boosted by a lot of screens and easy RPS YAC… and also put up 11.6 YPA. Also had a couple of successful runs.

#3 Lavert Hill. Doesn't get the credit he deserves most of the time because he's not on the screen. Hill's line: 1 assisted tackle, 1 PBU, one INT. He now has as many PBUs as unassisted tackles on the season. This is the first time he's broken out of HM territory. Is this because he stepped out of bounds after the INT so he could flex on Cody White? Maybe! But also he's further down the list below than he should be because of the nature of the position.

Honorable mention: DPJ turned nothing into a TD and almost a second; we'll call the punt return and ensuing fumble even. Nico Collins drew yet another redzone PI and scored a touchdown of his own. Mike Danna had another sack in a strong outing. Carlo Kemp forced the lone ground TFL and added a sack and a half. Josh Uche didn't get the stats but added five pressures per PFF. Khaleke Hudson blocked a punt and legally annihilated an MSU WR.

KFaTAotW Standings

NOTE: New scoring! HM: 1 point. #3: 3 points. #2: 5 points. #1: 8 points. Split winners awarded points at the sole discretion of a pygmy marmoset named Luke.

18: Josh Uche (#3 MTSU, #3 Army, T2 Rutgers, #2 Illinois, HM ND, T1 Maryland, HM MSU)
17: Aidan Hutchinson(#1 Army, HM Rutgers, T1 Iowa, HM Illinois, HM ND, T1 Maryland)
15: Shea Patterson(HM MTSU, #1 Rutgers. HM PSU, #2 MSU)
14: Whole Dang OL(#2 PSU, #1 ND, HM Maryland).
13: Zach Charbonnet (#2 MTSU, #2 Army, HM PSU, HM ND, HM Maryland), Nico Collins (HM Rutgers, HM Iowa, #1 PSU, #3 Maryland HM MSU)
12: Cam McGrone(HM Rutgers, T3 Iowa, HM Illinois, #3 PSU, #2 ND), Jordan Glasgow (HM MTSU, T3 Iowa, #1 Illinois, HM Maryland), Ronnie Bell (HM Army, T3 Rutgers, HM Illinois, #1 MSU)
10:  Ambry Thomas (#1 MTSU, HM Rutgers, HM Illinois), Kwity Paye (T2 Rutgers, T1 Iowa, HM PSU, T1 Maryland)
9: Khaleke Hudson (#2 Iowa, HM Illinois, HM ND, HM Maryland, HM MSU)
7: Josh Metellus (HM Army, HM Iowa, #2 Maryland), Hassan Haskins (#3 Illinois, #3 ND, HM Maryland)
6: Lavert Hill (HM Army, HM Iowa, HM ND, #3 MSU)
3: DPJ (T3 Rutgers, HM MSU), Mike Danna (T1 Maryland, HM MSU)
2: Dax Hill(HM Rutgers, HM Iowa), Tru Wilson (HM ND, HM Maryland), Will Hart (HM MTSU, HM Maryland), Carlo Kemp(HM MSU)
1:  Josh Ross (HM, MTSU), Sean McKeon (HM, MTSU),Brad Hawkins (HM Army), Christian Turner (HM Rutgers), Nick Eubanks (HM Illinois), Brad Hawkins (HM ND), Giles Jackson (HM Maryland), Michael Barrett (HM Maryland).

Who's Got It Better Than Us(?) Of The Week

Michigan induces a false start, blocks a punt, and immediately hits Nico Collins to go up 34-10 and effectively end the game.

 

Honorable mention: Cornelius Johnson provides the exclamation point; Lewerke flutters two INTs into Michigan CBs' arms; DPJ scores a touchdown out of a bunch of nothing; Paul Bunyan wears pants.

X4OROG3KOKTIFUY4YU4SNSLDIY_thumb_thu[2]MARCUS HALL EPIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEK.

Lewerke nails an RPO that puts MSU on the one-inch line; MSU scores on the next play and for a queasy second doubt plagues your mind.

Honorable mention: Michigan's second drive ends with a blatant uncalled PI; Jacub Panasuik cheapshots Patterson; Jim Harbaugh's post-game press conference is not a vicious wrestling promo aimed at Mark Dantonio in an attempt to goad him into staying.

OFFENSE

It turns out they were indeed close. Jim Harbaugh after Penn State:

"I feel like we're very close offensively and very close to hitting our stride, hitting on all cylinders," he said. "Really good evidence to back that up and also what I see."

This was widely derided. Since they've put up 45, 38, and 44 against ND, Maryland, and MSU. I did not specifically deride this quote but I did roll my eyes at it, so here's the mea culpa: I pulled the trigger on BPONE too fast this year and particularly with Patterson and Gattis.

Hit 'em where they ain't. I can't tell you how many times this hasn't happened. Michigan has gone into a lot of games in which it seems like the right approach is to gesture vaguely at the run game and rely on passing. Outside of the occasional Ohio State game, when the gloves are always off, I'm not sure there's been another outing where they've followed through so emphatically.

I'll get exact numbers later in the week but some box-score approximates follow. Delete 10 Tru Wilson carries, almost all of which happened after the game was decided, and the goal-to-go-inside-the-five carries that Haskins had from the wildcat. If you disregard those Michigan had 16 rushes and 37 dropbacks* as they shredded the #11 SP+ defense. A defense that had been shredded by Ohio State and Wisconsin previously, yes, but now we get to talk about the Michigan offense in the same sentence as those two offenses.

Importantly for the future of the offense, this felt like Josh Gattis's thing much more than the Notre Dame game. The ND game was a lot of stuff that we'd seen last year with the occasional Speed In Space cameo. This was about 90% the latter, starting from the opening snap when they attempted to go deep, got sacked, and kept on throwing. MSU's defense dares you do to this; Michigan did it.

*[some of those happened in Tru Wilson time but also there were some short yardage carries, etc. I'll get the full picture in UFR]

The easiest example of the above. Michigan hit Ronnie Bell on ~3 RPO hitches where he was the innermost receiver on the trips side. When the linebacker level ran at the line of scrimmage there was no one within five yards of Bell on those catches, so he got to ramble upfield for first downs.

Earlier in the year I'd complained that Michigan was running the same RPO slant that was all the rage three years go and that opponents had learned to defend that fairly well. This was the opposite, a dead-easy throw that was going to be a successful play.

Also in this bin were Michigan's various flare screens, which both gained chunks of yards and moved MSU's eyes. Immediately after one of these flare screens Michigan got an eight yard run in part because one of the MSU LBs was looking at the edge of the field until the RB crossed the line of scrimmage. This is likely to be an RPS beatdown.

And introducing: wide receiver blocking. Michigan's WRs were called into a ton of blocking action because of the edge stuff. In addition to the obvious flare screens Michigan ran a speed option on which the pitch was made, got Giles Jackson two edge carries, and had a flat route to McKeon that was also a screen, with the WRs blocking downfield.

Bell and Collins stood out; Collins would get a stalk-block on his DB about 10 yards downfield and that guy went backwards and never got off his block. (I should mention here that I've been told that the bubble against PSU where Collins ran a slant was not a Collins issue—that was the playcall.) Bell executed about five cut blocks where he tossed his waist into the body of MSU DBs and ended them. One DB was able to get up and make a tackle on Jackson; the other guys stayed down and Michigan got chunks.

One of these Bell blocks got flagged for reasons that are mysterious on first viewing, because it looked identical to the other cut blocks. I know the cut block section of the rulebook is riddled with subclauses and it's possible Bell may have violated one of the many and arcane rules therein. I'm at a loss as to which one it was.

While we're on Bell. As I said above, that slot fade catch was fairly impressive:

49076764602_b4f1e91fe6_k (1)

[Barron]

It could have been worse. Patterson's first half was a little wobbly, which resulted in a couple of throws where he took guys off their feet when they were about to run for 30 yards after the catch. The seam throw to McKeon was similar, although it's a lot more understandable to take a guy off their feet when it's 30 yards downfield. The slant to Black in the endzone was also well behind him.

Otherwise Patterson was excellent. Michigan got stuck in third and 14 early, called a route combo on which MSU had everything covered, and then Patterson slid out of the pocket to give Ronnie Bell time to get to a pocket of space on the sideline. He was able to break the pocket and make a few other plays happen, and his errors were limited to marginal balls. There weren't a lot of uncatchable ones, and there weren't any big errors except the sack immediately before the long field goal were he tripped.

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Literally didn't lay a finger on him [Fuller]

Even the bad stuff worked. Patterson checked it down to Peoples-Jones at the line of scrimmage twice. Neither of these plays were screens; they were just checkdowns on which DPJ got unblocked defenders almost immediately. He was a few inches away from turning those two opportunities into 60 yards and two touchdowns. Instead he had to settle for just the one.

This was oddly reminiscent of DPJ's punt return style, which is to look like he's not really doing much and then just outrun people without changing direction. Turns out he's fast.

Hello again Tarik Black. In the event Michigan loses Collins and DPJ to the NFL a lot is going to be on Tarik Black's plate next year, so it was nice to see him sky for a deep ball like he did very early in his career. He hasn't made a lot of downfield contested catches since.

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[Fuller]

Haskins-cat: approve. After a wildcat run last week when Patterson motioned out of the backfield Michigan went with a straight-up wildcat this week with Haskins and Mason in the backfield. This scored from the two in two plays the first time out; the second time Haskins got stopped at the LOS but momentarily broke a tackle and was then ruled down at the five. Patterson came in and Eubanks scored on the next play.

I don't mind wildcat snaps in short yardage situations, especially near the goal line. Telling the opposition you're running when they already expect you to run isn't much of a negative compared to buying back a blocker.

Vastardis a contender? When Ruiz went out for the back half of a drive, walk-on Andrew Vastardis came in. Vastardis has been the second-string center since Stueber's injury flipped Hongiford out to tackle and Spanellis moved to guard, so I imagine Michigan just wanted the guy who'd been snapping for the last three months to spot Ruiz. I wonder if that would still be the case if Ruiz was out for more than a few snaps.

Vastardis did have a low snap to Haskins but other than that he looked fine. Nice to have another option for next year, when at least three starting spots on the OL will be up for grabs.

DEFENSE

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[Barron]

Early thing, adjustment, over. Michigan met substandard opposition and whooped it, so there's not as much to say. This happens a lot.

The most interesting subplot of the day was the existence of an MSU Fall Camp Drive, albeit delivered in a different way. Usually these are obvious because they're end-arounds with a lead blocker and whatnot, but here the early success MSU had from their bunch sets was more of a football coach thing not immediately apparent to the layman. James Light:

MSU was able to work Michigan's expected coverages for a couple of third down conversions; they got the RPO not-quite-TD, and then as soon as Light noticed what was going on so did Don Brown and MSU's offense went in a hole.

Four! Four. Four. Elijah Collins's long run: four yards. Four! Michigan doesn't have the DTs to grab a bunch of TFLs even against a shaky OL but at no point did MSU have a successful run from Collins.

They did have a couple from Lewerke. I was surprised live that MSU wasn't running him more but after the dust cleared he did have 10 non-sack carries that went for a total of 30 yards. So that didn't work either.

MOVE. Michigan's MOVE call started off the satisfying false start/blocked punt/Collins touchdown sequence. Michigan DTs suddenly shifted right and an MSU guard came out of his stance. Couldn't hear Brown bellowing MOVE on the tape this time, unfortunately.

Still trying mesh. I missed Michigan's first sack of the afternoon because I was watching the coverage. MSU ran mesh, I momentarily thought "oh no," and then I saw Brad Hawkins sliding down to cover what was probably Lewerke's first or second read. He held the ball and ate a sack. That is strange. You'd think that if any opponent would be current on Michigan's vulnerability, or lack thereof, to crossing routes it would be MSU.

SPECIAL TEAMS

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lunch [Barron]

Only Marquise Walker can argue. Khaleke Hudson is probably the best punt-block specialist Michigan has ever had. This is related to his pass rush ability, where he's able to redirect and keep a lot of his momentum. On the one he returned to sender he zipped around the punt protector like he was not there.

I wonder if Michigan's punt block ability will continue after he's gone. It will at least in part—Michigan has had a couple other guys block punts over the last few years. But if Hudson is uniquely well suited to taking out spread punts there will be a step back.

Field goals. They were made, all by Quinn Nordin. I suggest they keep making them.

Uh… there was a punt. One punt. Against MSU.

Mild kickoff adventures. Jackson failed to field one kickoff that didn't get very far, had one return to about the 35, and almost touched the kick out of bounds. David theorized that the sun may have played a factor on the first. Meanwhile Michigan put all of theirs in the endzone except one pop-up the upback fielded. I prefer to get touchbacks whenever you can because against a poor opponent they're just extra bits of variance without a lot of upside.

MISCELLANOUS

Is this the ghost of a koala that was axe-murdered? You be the judge.

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[Barron]

Yes, go for it on the plus 40. We're not really talking about this. Not much else in game theory territory except I wasn't a big fan of Michigan's approach after they got down to the red zone just before the half. Going run-run to burn clock probably wasn't worth the decrease in expected points given the state of the MSU offense, and MSU promptly demonstrated why Michigan's gameplan was to avoid running up the middle.

Targeting roulette is also over. Probably? After years in which I feel utterly at sea whenever a targeting penalty is assessed or reviewed, I finally think I have a handle on it, and so do the people applying the rule. Did you strike someone with the crown of your helmet? You're gone. Did you hit a defenseless player (ie, a QB or WR immediately after a catch) in the head? You're gone. Otherwise… eh, probably all right.

I think it finally seems like targeting is usually going to be called right. Khaleke Hudson annihilated a WR over the middle; everyone braced for a flag; none came out, and that was correct. Kwity Paye was under threat after a borderline PF, and the replay booth correctly found that he'd hit the shoulder only. I've seen targeting called when guys put the crown into an opponent and targeting waved off when they put their facemask on the opponent.

Things aren't perfect. That Army targeting call when Turner got knocked off his feet and a second guy got ejected was pretty bad, but at least that felt like a rule applied in a situation it shouldn't be instead of something totally random. It still feels like CFB has finally arrived at a spot where most of the targeting calls are predictable and correct. Not all, but most.

Personal foul roulette, however. This game has turned into one of college football's most consistent ref shows. There's some justification for that, but a brief survey of the personal fouls shows a poor strike rate:

  • MSU gets flagged for a late hit on DPJ; the hit comes before Peoples-Jones is actually out of bounds.
  • Aidan Hutchinson is flagged for mutual shoving.
  • Luke Campbell is flagged for something that happens off screen and does not get a replay, because the replay is used for a taunting call on Cody White. White does loom over Hudson in a confrontational fashion and this one is probably correct.
  • Tarik Black gets flagged for a flex after his catch down the sidelines. This was ridiculous but did result in a spectacular reaction gif.
  • MSU gets a PF for shoving Hudson in the bench area.
  • Panasuik #1 gets a no-doubter and is ejected.
  • Panasuik #2 gets flagged after his helmet comes off; he argues with the referee about a penalty for a while and then gets flagged for saying something to the referee.

The hit rate on non-obvious calls there is pretty bad.

HERE

Best and Worst:

Best: Hudson Hawk

Khaleke Hudson had an underwhelming junior year, in some part due to shifts in duties that required him to play more like a traditional linebacker (e.g. trying to hold up against Wisconsin's ground game or trying to cover WRs) and less like his natural Viper position. He wasn't bad or anything, but after a record-setting sophomore campaign 2018 was a step back.

But in one of the more pleasant surprises of the season for the defense, Hudson has largely returned to his previous destructive self, even if the counting stats aren't quite there. Yes, he's still not great when asked to be your classic linebacker and can get a bit lost in coverage, but as a guy who can attack from the edge and keep runs tamped down, he's been great. And his blocked punt in this game (the 5th of his career), effectively ended the competitive part of the game for MSU; the doors sorta blew off when Michigan scored on the subsequent play. His presence will be missed next season, even if there are a number of viable options to fill the gap.

ELSEWHERE

Tom Van Haaren:

ANN ARBOR, Mich. -- Michigan safety Josh Metellus was waving goodbye to Michigan State players after the Wolverines' 44-10 victory over the Spartans on Saturday. Metellus and his teammates took exception to the chippiness during the game and thought it was time for the Spartans to leave.

"I was telling them to go home," Metellus said. "It was time for them to leave and they didn't deserve to be in our stadium. I was trying to wave them goodbye because some of them wanted to stay on the field and it was our time to shine. We came out with the 'W' so we were just telling them to go home."

Baumgardner:

“Josh Gattis and the offensive staff really had this game plan wired,” Harbaugh said afterward. “They’d predicted what some of the adjustments were going to be in this game.

“And just about every one of them was right.”

All of this against Dantonio, who spent the better part of eight years giving Michigan absolute fits with his ability to call defense, turn under-recruited players into standouts and get everything to work exactly right against the Wolverines. Five years ago, Michigan limped out of East Lansing after Dantonio punched in an extra rushing touchdown, payback for the Wolverines shoving a tent stake into the Spartan Stadium grass. On that night, Oct. 25, 2014, MSU owned this rivalry. In every area.

That’s over.

This wasn’t John L. Smith bad. This was worse. Michigan State hasn’t taken a beating like this against Michigan since 2002, Bobby Williams’ last act in the rivalry. The game where MSU’s soon-to-be fired coach was asked whether he’d lost his team, and replied: “I don’t know.”

Orion Sang:

Shea Patterson said something that was startlingly accurate after Michigan football's 44-10 win over Michigan State on Saturday afternoon.

"Usually it’s kind of the other way around," he said. "Usually the defense is the one to thank and everything."

Ronnie Bell has everything but a touchdown. Maize and Blue Nation. MGoFish. Sap's Decals. Hoover Street Rag. Touch the Banner.

Comments

FreddieMercuryHayes

November 18th, 2019 at 2:06 PM ^

I mean, I relish this gamer.  But it also kind of reminds me of I think was that 2007 post after the Little Brother game?  Where Brian proclaimed MSU would never make it to the Rose Bowl.  Or later on when he reviewed that year's recruiting and it was 'to the salt mines' or something like that.  I mean, I don't think anyone would have predicted UM's ability to destory itself of the next decade, but I think there's a bit of a blind spot for MSU there. 

I get that logic and predictive data say that MSU's run is over and they can't keep hitting on such a high rate as they did mid-Dantonio era.  But maybe I'm just a whipped dog and expect our rivals to keep coming up Milhouse. I can see MSU hiring Fickell and end up with a better coach than Dantonio.  I would think the next guy can't be better than the best coach ever, but hell, OSU managed to do it with Meyer and now Day seems pretty good (although this may still be a Wylie Coyote year for them).

Anyway, it is finally good to see UM twisting the knife in a program that deserved it so much.  Deserved for, like, real reasons.  Not for stupid shit like 'arrogance'.

michgoblue

November 18th, 2019 at 2:54 PM ^

After the 2007 Little Brother game, MSU football was not heading in a great direction.  The only thing that saved them from being where they are today was the implosion of the dominant football program in the state (Michigan).  As a direct result of the failed tenure of RR, MSU was signing recruits that, in ordinary circumstances, would never have considered MSU over Michigan.  That, and nothing else, led to their success.  Add into that, PSU imploding at around the same time.  

Unless MSU goes out and hires Meyer, Saban or any of the other top-10 national coaches, things are not going to reverse.  We are the dominant program and, as a general rule, get our pick of in-state talent.  Sure, they may snag one here or there, like always, but their roster will largely be built by low 3* and below players.  Also, what good coach is going to look at MSU's current roster and cultural problems, then look an insanely dominant OSU, a top 10-15 Michigan and a top 10-15 PSU - all in their DIVISION - and want to take that job?

Ty Butterfield

November 18th, 2019 at 2:06 PM ^

It would be great if Michigan can keep the whole staff together going into next season. They may finally start to find something on offense. 

mGrowOld

November 18th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^

Get used to this young ones.  THIS is how the M/MSU "rivalry" has played out for about a century.  We win 5, 6 games or so over them then we forget to take them seriously the same year they have a bunch of seniors (like 1978) and we lose.  Then we get focused again, win for most of the next decade until lightning strikes and they win another game or two.

You dont get to 71-36-5 without pretty consistent domination.  That's they way it's always been and that's the way it's going to be from now on out.

It's over Sparty.  Over.

FreddieMercuryHayes

November 18th, 2019 at 2:42 PM ^

Yeah, I agree.  I think in those pre Bo years when MSU was on a high, they dominated the rivalvry, then during the Bo years, UM did.  Then from then on, it seems like 2 UM for every 1 MSU win until the John Lish years and Dantonio years when streaks started happening again.  Who knows what it will look like going forward in the modern college football landscape.

Red is Blue

November 18th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^

Not sure if done on purpose, but starting in 1950 is about the optimal long term place to start for MSU.

Wins by Decade  1940*   1950   1960   1970   1980   1990   2000  2010

Michigan                  8        2          2        9         8         6          7       4

MSU                         0        7          7        1         2         4          3       6

tie                                      1          1     

 

* did not play in 1943 or 1944.

 

Series Record Michigan-MSU-ties

1950 - today 38-30-2  (56% M)

1960 - today 36-23-1   (61% M)

1970 - today 34-16    (68% M)

1980 - today 25-15   (63% M)

1990 - today 17-13  (57% M)

2000 - today 11-9

2010 - today 4-6

saveferris

November 18th, 2019 at 4:17 PM ^

This is absolutely correct.  The best case that MSU can hope for is either Dantonio salvages the program to Perles level performance where it's 6 to 9 win seasons with an occasional upset over Michigan or they find a Perles level coach to take over for Dantonio and he achieves the same thing.  If Spartan Nation thinks they're going to find a coach who can deliver 11 win seasons year after year with Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State consistently playing Top 15 football, they are delusional.

Certainly, MSU could find another coaching prodigy that will elevate them briefly, but those guys don't stay for the long haul.  The Nick Saban's come in, succeed a little more than the previous guy, get noticed by the bigger programs and move on.

It is indeed over Sparty.  OVER.

wile_e8

November 18th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^

Satisfying rewatch (relisten?) of the game: Put the DPJ touchdown on a loop, listen each time for the MSU LB screaming when he gets dusted. 

? @UMichFootball gets their 3rd touchdown of the game and Harbaugh is HYPED pic.twitter.com/TAX2bVeRv9

— FOX College Football (@CFBONFOX) November 16, 2019

I might need to edit this a couple times to get the embed correct

EDIT: OK, apparently I need to do something besides pasting the embed code and I don't know what it is

Carpetbagger

November 18th, 2019 at 2:16 PM ^

In my ongoing (probably futile) quest to teach my wife more football than "Oh we scored!", I replayed that same back to back sequence of flare pass/middle run, pointing out the linebacker watching the jet motion instead of the ball too.

I maintain you don't need to run your QB more than once or twice a game to have an effective run game either if you sell all the options and motions like you are supposed to.

Also, I assumed the Hutchinson penalty was a combo of 2nd person in and makeup for the DPJ call.

TCW

November 18th, 2019 at 2:17 PM ^

Brian's never-ending stream of shots at Hoke always seem odd given his unwillingness to do the same with RichRod, who won a total of six conference games in three seasons.  He has a fondness for Rodriguez that is tough to understand, given the results he produced.

Tuebor

November 18th, 2019 at 2:26 PM ^

Probably due to the fact that RRod, while he did perform miserably, got a raw deal from the administration, previous staff, and former players.  I mean RRod just wanted 250K to bring his preferred Defensive Coordinator with him and got turned down.  Now, Harbaugh's son makes more than 250K.

 

Hoke was brought in and had full support of everyone and then his incompetence eventually ran him out of town.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 18th, 2019 at 3:36 PM ^

This is it right here.

We never got to see what the RR era would've looked like with Hoke-level support from admin and various program satellites.  There's a decent chance it would've been spectacular.

Plus, RR, despite going 3-9, did the program a huge favor: he dragged it kicking and screaming out of the stone age that it seemed determined to stay in.  Modern S&C coaching instead of "eat pizza."  Learn what an offense looks like in the 21st century.  Had the program hired a "Michigan Man"** that people had grubble grubbled about, we might still be feeling the backwards-looking effects.  We have not kept pace with Ohio (partly because we don't pay like them) but neither are we Nebraska or Tennessee.  We can look at Knoxville and say "there but for the grace of RR goes us."

**and I don't hate that meme, but it can be used for nefarious purposes

saveferris

November 18th, 2019 at 4:33 PM ^

Precisely.  Rodriguez took over a program that was already teetering on the brink of collapse and got it to improve every season despite getting almost no support.  Hoke took over a program that was fairly rebuilt and ran it into the ground.  We'll never know if Rich Rodriguez would've found some success had he been given 4 or 5 seasons to continue building this program, but I think we can definitely say he's a better coach than Brady Hoke.  If any good came out of that era, it hopefully broke the narrative of the Michigan Man once and for all.

shoes

November 18th, 2019 at 7:51 PM ^

For the umpteenth time, RichRod did NOT run off Mallett. he had made his decision to leave before he ever met RR. It could have worked as a passing spread (see RR as OC at Tulane). For that matter Mallett was a jerk and it's not clear he would have stayed even if Lloyd had. Carr had about had it with his immaturity. Boatload of things to criticize RR for, but that is not one of them.

TrueBlue2003

November 18th, 2019 at 8:15 PM ^

Pretty sure it was RichRod's fault that he hadn't met Mallet.  When Rodriguez was hired he didn't reach out immediately to Mallett and let him know what a passing spread would look like with Mallett at QB.  That's the same as running him out of town.  If you want players to stay after a coaching transition, you have to ask them to stay and I was under the impression RichRod never did that.

saveferris

November 19th, 2019 at 7:20 AM ^

This is the ultimate strawman argument because I assure you Rodriguez didn't choose to be 3-9, no coach chooses to be 3-9.  Still, the presumption that a more acceptable result was achievable with the talent on hand that would've placated all of the Old Blues who didn't like the hire in the first place is pure speculation.  If Rodriguez was able to get Michigan to 6-6 or 7-5 and make a shitty bowl with a more gradual approach to installing his brand of football, the entire fanbase is still unhappy and grumbling.  Anybody who thinks Rodriguez could've taken that team and coached it to 9 or 10 wins is delusional.

And Rich Rodriguez didn't run off Ryan Mallett.  That story has long been debunked.  And the fact that there was no other serviceable QB on the team isn't Rodriguez's fault, that fault lies squarely on the shoulders of Lloyd Carr and his staff.

Rich Rodriguez was a bad fit at Michigan, but he is empirically a better coach than Brady Hoke; but Hoke was a "Michigan Man" and somehow that made him a better choice to lead this program, which proved to be absolutely incorrect.

FreddieMercuryHayes

November 18th, 2019 at 2:39 PM ^

Hoke never should have gotten the job based on his actual past performance as a coach.  He should have gotten a mid level B1G job.  He got it only because he was one of the 'in crowd' in the recent AD family and Carr tree.  RichRod absolutely deserved the job and had the records to prove it.  Hell Bama tried to hire him the year before and UM only got him because WV's AD was like 'nah, you're not gonna leave we're going to do whatever we like'.  And then UM preceded to make his life a living hell and actively work against him.  He got a shitty deal from UM, and while he didn't make it any better, and definitely didn't perform well, his situation was completely different than Hoke's.

wile_e8

November 18th, 2019 at 2:40 PM ^

RichRod did a poor job, but partially thanks to Dave Brandon, partially thanks to the people that undermined RichRod from the start so we could get a Michigan Man in to fix things, the Hoke era was accompanied with an air of arrogance that made the frequent bouts of incompetence so much worse. And that relates much more closely to the late Dantonio era than anything RichRod did. 

corundum

November 18th, 2019 at 4:10 PM ^

Rodriguez: 3-9, 5-7, 7-6

Hoke: 11-2, 8-5, 7-6, 5-7

 

Rodriguez improved every year culminating in Hoke's first season where he was able to sleep walk to a BCS bowl win. Hoke clapped away for four years while the program deteriorated. Hoke was obviously a far worse coach than Rodriguez.

TrueBlue2003

November 18th, 2019 at 7:35 PM ^

Ehhh, it's not hard to improve on 3-9.  And when it's largely your fault you were 3-9, you can't deflect the blame.

It's also egregiously revisionist to say that Hoke's BCS bowl win was some foregone conclusion that anyone could have done via sleepwalking.  Hoke brought in Mattison and drastically improved the defense.  Something RichRod had no chance of doing (he was a terrible, TERRIBLE delegator).

There's a reason RichRod has failed since leaving Michigan and is no longer even a head coach.

They're both bad coaches, and RichRod is probably a little better (I guess since he actually has a job in football since he is a better tactician) but to say Hoke was FAR worse is a major stretch.  Literally no one could have been far worse than RichRod.

DualThreat

November 18th, 2019 at 2:19 PM ^

That Cornelius Johnson play.  Please do that against OSU.  (May work even more convincingly if Johnson fakes like he got beat on the block.)

Mongo

November 18th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^

I think we all were a bit too harsh on this team, and especially so on Gattis and Patterson.  But I truly believe the person who turned the ship was Harbaugh.  The mid-season run game adjustments were superb and it seemed to feel like a Harbaugh team again.  Gattis then adapted his goals into that direction and voila ... we have a Michigan power-spread attack humming. 

The read option pass game Josh marries with the power tendencies of a Harbaugh team could become a thing to reckon with over the next few years.

After witnessing this MSU beat down, I am now a believer.  This team is hitting it's stride. 

Carpetbagger

November 18th, 2019 at 2:53 PM ^

Absolutely. I'm not a fan of inside/outside zone running attacks at all. The marriage of the Harbaughffense and Gattis Speed-in-Space concepts make perfect sense to me on the field though. This team can compete for the playoffs next year, assuming a bit more progress. I thought we were 100% doomed against OSU a few weeks ago, now I only think we are 70% doomed.

reshp1

November 18th, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^

My guess is Harbaugh went out of his way to hold up his end of the "handed the keys to Josh" agreement. Gattis probably struggled a bit as a first time play caller and Harbaugh finally had to get a little more involved, but also I think Gattis in the interim has also found his footing a little bit and settled in. Shea getting healthy plus overall just more reps also plays into it. Whatever the case, the team seems to be clicking finally.

Mgrad92

November 18th, 2019 at 4:11 PM ^

Gattis is a first-time play-caller, true — and he’s calling plays for a head coach in his first season with someone else as his full-time play-caller, too, isn’t he? Maybe it wasn’t so much that Harbaugh had to get more involved, but more that for the first time Harbaugh had to figure out what the right level of involvement is for a head coach with a full-time OC.