Harbaugh's policy on practice/playing time for injured players?
Maybe you think this doesn't deserve it's own post, but meh. It's related to Solomon and the recent transfers, but my post is about something more specific. First, I want to say I'm not at all accusing the staff of doing something wrong, but I'm just looking for more information and insight on the situation. I've actually been one of the few defending the program the last couple weeks and I don't think these transfers show there's anything chaotic or unsettling about what's going on in the program, though it does suck for next year.
A lot of people have been guessing about the "common theme" Solomon's mom hinted at regarding transfers. People have mentioned playing time, racism, losing to OSU etc., but the common theme to me seems to be something about how injuries affect the depth chart and how some players perceive that. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all. It's hard to say without knowing more. Umbig11 mentioned this but it's buried on page 6 or so on the board post of Solomon's transfer: "I will keep it short. You need to be available to play to help your team win. He’s missed a lot of games. Last year can be misleading too. He was credited for playing in 3 different games, but only played 7 or 8 snaps. No doubt it will hurt the depth chart. There will be more attrition."
Playing time in and of itself doesn't make sense for obvious reasons given Hudson and Solomon. I also have absolutely no idea how this could be race-related. It's not like these guys are getting benched for scrappy lunch-pail white players. But Hudson transferred almost immediately after being declared behind Steuber once he had a minor injury. It seems like Solomon did roughly the same. People are talking about rumors of Black considering a transfer and that would also seem to be related to injuries. We also all know about Zordich hinting that one of the CBs (Hill or Long? Both? I forget) may be falling behind because of injuries. Walker had other issues, but he also did have some injury issues. I can't recall hearing of anything about Singleton while he was at Michigan but he came in with an injured ACL. Some transfers like Asiasi (family) and Wheatley (weight) don't seem relevant to these latest transfers.
I'd be curious if umbig11 or others could be more specific about how injuries are treated within the program in regards to the depth chart and practice time and whether this is different from other programs. Maybe it's part of Harbaugh's emphasis on competition. There's nothing wrong with that. Some have mentioned how OSU and Alabama have also lost huge numbers of players from recent classes. It'd be hard to compare the reasons for all of these though since most aren't publicly commented on.
December 18th, 2018 at 9:35 AM ^
I want the team and the players to be successful. We just lost 62-39 to in the biggest game of our head coach's career in the 4th straight loss of his career to our biggest rival in game that literally everybody in the country thought we should and would win. That alone is reason for consternation. If all was right, that would not have happened. To venture that some of the issues that are being discussed right now and that outcome share no common ground is kind of crazy.
December 18th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^
Exactly. It's one thing to be unhappy about the coaching and your personal playing time. But it is easier for some if the team is crushing it. But when you're unhappy and get the shit beat out of you on national TV and get embarrassed, I suspect it becomes a lot more intolerable.
December 18th, 2018 at 9:54 AM ^
There is massive selection bias in just looking at the comments of those that leave. Of course there is going to be common themes. If you analyzed the tweets of other players that have left other programs you'd probably see the same thing. In the opposite sense, have you ever noticed that wildly successful people, when interviewed, say stuff like "Dream big, don't give up on your dreams, blah blah blah." Does that mean that is the key to success? Surely there are tons of people who failed but dreamed big and never gave up. Guess what, nobody's doing an interview with them because they failed.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:35 PM ^
Roughly half the recruits I went to parris Island with didn't become marines. A lot of the kids I know who went to college couldn't hack it and dropped out. I assume the same type of pressure hits these kids the same way and at the same time. Some can hack it while others can't. I won't bad mouth the ones who have to leave, but kudos and congrats to the ones who stay.
December 18th, 2018 at 6:51 AM ^
Thank you for your service mgohillbilly.
December 18th, 2018 at 7:53 AM ^
What a sane response.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:46 AM ^
Semper Fidelis!!
December 17th, 2018 at 11:43 PM ^
Could not agree more. 2/3 of today’s athletes would have dropped or been thrown off of Bo’s team back in the day.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:08 AM ^
This is true but I am not sure how relevant it is. Do we as a program want to win or do we want to have players who Bo Schembechler would have approved of 30 years ago? Can they co-exist in the modern football culture? Honest question.
December 18th, 2018 at 11:21 AM ^
Great point. Bo was a very, very good coach and from all I can see, a truly great man.
However, he was NOT a great coach.
So emulating Bo in how you run the Xs and Os, practice, etc. of your football program is actually not the best strategy.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:57 AM ^
I think Bo did. Was a no bs coach. Thus The Team was drilled into their heads. When woody met Bo before a bowl game he told Bo the team was soft. JH is no where near the drill sargeant they were.
December 18th, 2018 at 2:37 AM ^
Most these kids could destroy any of us in a second. That comes from intense training and hard work. You watch our players go up against 325 pound lineman for our entertainment -for free and you think they are entitled. Lets revisit the definition of that word. Watch a player get carted of or take a hit at 20 mph head on. Good god what a shit take. These kids work their asses off. Entitled - what a douche.
December 18th, 2018 at 6:15 AM ^
I'd like to see you say that to Ben Mason in person.
December 18th, 2018 at 9:25 AM ^
I talked to Ben Mason in person at Briarwood Mall on Sunday night. From my experience, I don’t think anyone would be anything but polite to that man.
December 18th, 2018 at 10:28 AM ^
This is pretty much my sentiment too after reading everything to this point.
Transferring because they fall in the depth chart because of some injury is a snowflake's reaction. They're not supporting their teammates who apparently improved enough to take their slot which is the antithesis of "The Team, The Team, The Team". Buy into that philosophy or get off the team and make room for someone who will and is willing to put in the effort. The quality players will fight for their slot and establish a clear enough separation that when they come back from injury they pick up where they left off, i.e. what Harbaugh preaches about - a meritocracy.
December 18th, 2018 at 11:20 AM ^
91 I don't think 'entitled pussies' is hardly an accurate statement. In order to get a college scholarship at a top tier program, those players have put in countless hours in the weight room and practice field. They have attended camps and often hire personal trainers to achieve their max potential. Then once they get to campus they are surrounded by other top level talent. They go from king of the hill at high school to just another fish in the pond. They have many things they have to manage outside football - classes, parties, girls, etc. Then after a period of time a player may discover that the passion that they once had for the game has disappeared. So many factors come into a players life on campus that football can become a secondary focus.
Then factor in all the health risk playing the sport and you can see that 'entitled pussies' falls way short of an accurate description of today's modern athlete.
December 19th, 2018 at 5:52 AM ^
Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey!
Macho, macho man (macho man)
I've got to be, a macho man
Macho, macho man
I've got to be a macho! Ow!
Macho, macho man
I've got to be, a macho man
Macho, macho man (yeah, yeah)
I've got to be a macho!
Hey Macho man, those guys work harder in a single 4 hour practice than you’ve probably ever worked in your whole life. I think to please you and your crowd could only be done by bringing Durkin back to be the He Man Pussy Haters Club Toughness Commandant and require him to kill one player a week in order to insure proper toughness and man making.
Imagine if Durkin had been at OSU under Meyer directly before going to Maryland instead of here, the MgoMcCarthyism would have off with peoples heads if they dared dispute that he was obviously the same guy he was under Meyer and must have at least behaved the same way there if not actually learned his deadly methods from Urban.
But of course it worked in reverse and when there was any wonderment expressed about what he might have been doing here or what it means that he was here and this is who he is, the very idea that anyone could even consider that being a potential sign of anything or anything even worth thinking about let alone looking, into was an outrage!
NO, NOT POSSIBLE.... why, why, no, they just must be pussies! If they can’t handle it or it’s actually hurting, injuring or wearing them out and harming performance and careers, well then they’re not working hard enough and we need to double down!!!!!
They practice twice as long as every other team in America, 4 hours. They run more and they hit more in practice than most if not all. You have it backwards. Why haven’t the 4 hour practices caught on anywhere else?
All the slow starts, the looking flat, not looking as intense or motivated as the other team too often, is it posssible that’s tired legs and battered overworked bodies?
Maybe it’s just the excuse of pussies, you could be right.... but you could be wrong....
December 17th, 2018 at 11:33 PM ^
Whether this is playing into what's going on at U of M or not, it may be.
I know a several D2 coaches, both men's & women's sports. One universal frustrations they have is the difference between players injured vs players hurt. They have players with a sore knee, quad, etc & they won't practice... Having something 'sore' isn't the same as an injury. It frustrates the coach because there's a 90% chance the player is taking advantage of the situation using it to sit out practice, yet since there's a chance there is an injury the coach doesn't feel comfortable pushing them. So if you have a 2nd string player who gives 100% all the time, practices thru a muscle strain, sore ankle, etc. It's probably pretty easy to move them past the #1 who is more likely to sit it out vs practice or play thru it.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:38 PM ^
That thought hadn't even occurred to me, but just anecdotally, this has been an issue in every organized sport that I've been a part of. There have always been guys--even top guys on the teams--who looked for any reason at all to get out of practice, meetings, whatever.
But the talent gap was always so big at the lower levels that I played that top guys would always always get the playing time anyway.
But yeah, some of us would have to be prohibited from practicing to stop. Then there were others who were always trying to get a note to be excused...
December 18th, 2018 at 12:53 AM ^
Soreness is almost always a symptom of some sort of tissue damage. If you try to play through it, you risk aggravating the injury even worse. It's usually better to rest even if you can work through it.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:37 AM ^
So you only work out one day a month.... since most good workouts are followed by some soreness?
December 18th, 2018 at 7:58 AM ^
If I had to guess, I would say that this is exactly what is going on. And it's a sensitive thing for the players and parents because they see their bodies as huge commodities that could cash NFL checks. And they want to protect themselves even against little things. But Harbaugh's job is to put the most competitive college football team on the field each week, and if a guy's not practicing or not practicing hard, he probably gets skipped over for someone who is. Parents like Solomon's no doubt view this as punishing players for being injured.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:30 AM ^
" But Harbaugh's job is to put the most competitive college football team on the field each week, and if a guy's not practicing or not practicing hard, he probably gets skipped over for someone who is. "
Problem is - that may not be the way to put the most competitive college football team on the field each week.
December 18th, 2018 at 11:00 AM ^
Yeah, I understand that there's a difference between the best player and the hardest-working player. I think Harbaugh has made a calculation that the best long-term solution (for program culture) is to reward the harder working player, all else being close to equal. This probably results in situations like Steuber playing before Hudson in a particular game, but Harbaugh seems to think the benefit of motivating players to "work hard" (e.g., play through pain) is worth the cost of lower talent at a position in a particular game.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:30 AM ^
You got that right Blue in PA. Then these “hurt”players all of a sudden are great come game time and can’t figure out why they don’t get to play in games
December 17th, 2018 at 11:37 PM ^
Good job inventing/elevating a nonsense racism rumor that will now make its way across the vile troll internets.
December 18th, 2018 at 12:58 AM ^
I didn't invent it. Multiple people mentioned it in the comments on the various posts here. And my post was to show that I DON'T think it's racism but rather something about the depth chart. But yes, only now, after someone so influential as a random message board reader as myself mentioned it will it go viral. I'm sure I'll be a big subject of debate on whatever Skip Bayless' current show is.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:41 PM ^
The racism stuff feels like internet commenters wanting to make it something that isn't there.
Guys leave programs. I've posted this elsewhere, but Alabama lost 10 guys out of a class of around 24 that was #1 nationally. And a number of them were 5* types at spots with rotations. It happens. I am sure some guys move on because they feel they aren't given a shot.
December 18th, 2018 at 7:28 AM ^
Justin Fields is leaving Georgia because of racism. Hopefully this rumor that I just made up makes it to the Georgia blogs and they lose recruits becaus of it.
December 18th, 2018 at 7:56 AM ^
To be fair, racism is pretty rampant down here and Athens-Clarke County is no exception.
December 19th, 2018 at 7:04 AM ^
To be fair it’s rampant up here and on here too, and always has been. Assholes don’t like to admit it though.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:43 PM ^
Players shouldn’t lose their position due to injury. Each player that is transferring is doing so primarily because of that reason. It maybe being spun as racist by some but I suspect that it’s motivation you either rise to or you dont. None of these players are being processed because Harbaugh wants them at Michigan. They have to work to keep their position because there is always competent capable competition. We get upset there isn’t a meritocracy and then get upset at the results of one. The schizophrenia of the Michigan fan base....
December 17th, 2018 at 11:58 PM ^
Sometimes I wonder if it is a meritocracy, or if the coaches are playing their favorites. There are times when guys are on the bench and we know they are better than the guys that are out there. See Bolden/Gedeon. So if you have a guy who is stuck on the bench behind someone else and they think they are better than them, maybe it's entitlement and maybe it's coaches playing their favorites. I can see a player getting frustrated in this situation and wanting out, and we simply don't know if it's warranted or not. Is Steuber better than Hudson? We have no way of knowing that, but I think it's a fairly safe bet that Hudson didn't think he was.
December 18th, 2018 at 1:03 AM ^
I believe Durkin was the DC during Bolden’s senior year. Mattison prior to that. Don Brown may have done things differently. Also Bolden was apparently an extremely good practice player. But I get your overall point there.
In regards to Hudson I’d say let’s trust coach Warriner. Who has turned a terrible o-line into a competent one. Warriner is also regarded as one of the best o-line coaches in the country.
Personel decisions in regards to who starts sits for position groups are most often made by position coaches. So unless you think Mattison and Warriner, two guys lauded as great we’ll respected coaches both just play favorites? I think this is a dumb take. Sometimes I wonder why I come on here to read this stuff.
This board is in full melt down mode in regards to football. The takes on here are some of the dumbest I’ve ever seen. Especially bringing up racism. That’s toxic and BS. And unless you have something backing that up anyone throwing that out there is just trying to ruin people’s reputation and you should be ashamed.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:48 PM ^
Let's not forget when Jabrill Peppers got "injured" right before the bowl game, instead of being on the sidelines with his teammates he was sent away to the press box. The most bizarre thing I have ever seen in college football. Harbaugh didn't care about creating a spectacle on the sidelines, he wanted to punish Jabrill and that was the only way he could do it. It was probably too late to send him home.
December 18th, 2018 at 3:47 AM ^
This is the dumbest post ever written on MGoBlog. You have no idea why Peppers was in the press box. Peppers himself expressed no problem with it or Harbaugh.
Sit down, troll.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:46 AM ^
I regret that I have but one downvote to give for this post.
December 17th, 2018 at 11:49 PM ^
For better or for worse (we shall see) I think it may be as likely as anything that this is meritocracy at work. Let's say for the say of argument that the "this is a meritocracy" schtick is true. Players are expected to work harder than the next guy to start and stay there. Fail to work hard? Down the charts you go. Get injured and unavailable to get the reps in? Down the charts you go. Fall afoul of team policy/the law/etc? Out you go.
I'm not advocating this or railing against it - I'm not a player or a teammate to these guys, never been coached by someone like Harbaugh.... but from day one that's the thing that's been said time and again by the staff and it seems that if there is a common thread here it could be the one. Guys getting kicked off the team is obvious but speak to "earning it." as well. Guys transferring for PT speaks to it. Guys who got injured and weren't immediately handed back starter reps speaks to it.
Not throwing players under the bus either - there could be legit reasons to feel miffed or like you weren't valued the way you expected to be. But if future transfers are from guys that got hurt and didn't go back to being #1 right away, or got the yips and replaced by their backup, or got the short end of the PT stick for whatever reason - doesnt that all echo back to the meritocracy?
It sounds to me like this could be a number of players who all have slightly different reasons to want to leave, but that the tie that binds them together is feeling like the meritocracy didnt work for them for whatever reason. Maybe that'll be for the best for all parties in the long run. Maybe not. We'll see.
December 18th, 2018 at 12:35 AM ^
There is no Meritocracy. Gil gets half the snaps while Ross outplays him ever Saturday. O'Korn played over Peters. McCurry and Schoenle and to a certain extent Bell got snaps at WR on a team with DPJ, Collins, Black, Perry, Martin.
Christian Turner was 3rd RB got hurt, never heard from again. Owenu got hurt last year, Ruiz played over him the rest of the year. If Ruiz was that good how could he not beat out Kugler?
It seems more like a "it is your job until you get hurt then its the guy behind you's job as long as he is healthy.
I can't think of an instance where a young guy came in and took a job from a starter, which is odd considering the amount of talent in the first two large classes JH brought in. And it is something that would be expected often in a meritocracy where all that matters is the best players play.
December 18th, 2018 at 1:20 AM ^
The instances you bring up are totally irrelevant as they’re merely your opinion, and as you know absolutely zero about the metrics actually used by Harbaugh, an uninformed one at that.
Every rep, every lift, every play is graded and repped. When you’re hurt, you cannot be earning “points” in drills and reps in which you’re not particpating. Obviously, some kids come back from injury and play. We say Gary, Black, Mone, and many more. Some, for whatever reason, may feel they’re not able to catch up because of their injury. When you don’t do your work, you fall behind. I’d imagine it take a ton of effort to stay motivated when injured — more time rehabbing, but all the meetings and responsibilities.
Lets not forget that Brown has repeatedly used the word “Trust” when talking defensive personnel. You’re injured, you’re sick, you miss out on some development both physically, but perhaps most importantly, mentally. We heard some of this even about Gary. Get healthy! This isn’t to impune anyone. Football is a brutal game and what these guys feel and go through is staggering.
Somebody has to start, in a meritocracy or otherwise. But a true meritocracy measures what’s ACTUALLY done by each person and measures them against everyone else. If you’re hurt, or sick, or ineligible, or get in trouble, you’re behind ... full stop!
Like life, you’re going to have to do something above and beyond for a period of time to get back. Just to where you were. Now, if the other guy has improved and done everything at a high level, is it fair to bump his time down because you were starting first. Coach doesn’t play that game ... check the charts and it will tell you who is going to play and who is going in second, and third. He’s made this clear. It’s no mystery to the players.
If you’re bitter you lost your spot, the work harder or leave. Either way, it’s a win for Michigan as he either pushes past a barrier and becomes better for it, or he opens up a spot for someone who will. “Look to your left, look to your right ... one of you won’t be here in 3 years.” That’s that game they choose to play. Not everyone is cut out for it.
December 18th, 2018 at 2:56 AM ^
I partially agree, but your account doesn’t take into account talent. I don’t care about Jake McMurry’s ability to play through pain. Unless he runs the best routes, gets open, and makes fantastic catches and YAC, his better work ethic shouldn’t win time over a guy like Black.
I have no idea if it does, but I’d hate to be a starter and have to completely work back through fourth string.
Sure, count loafs. Rob Marinelli motivated Bears defense with loafs—if you loaf, you pay the price. But he was not replacing Urlacher and Briggs with practice squadders.
Internet speculation plus bored fans=middle of the night insomnia fillers. Let’s just go to bed and wait until Wednesday for real news.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:37 AM ^
Yes, playing less talented players because they are able to play through pain is a good way to lose games. Injured players should not be punished for getting hurt. Super talented players have millions of dollars at stake, so erroring on the side of caution with existing injuries is reasonable. Seems this might be the case, but no way to know for sure.
December 18th, 2018 at 3:11 AM ^
I don't know the metrics JH uses, but neither do you, so our opinions are equally uninformed. Clearly playing time is subjective. But a meritocracy is based on ability. It means the best player plays.
We didn't see Black. He was ready for MSU and only saw a few snaps with the weather that made sense. OSU was a full month after that so he was most likely ready to go. Maybe he wasn't who knows, we are just guessing. But McCurry got more fade attempts than Black. If Black was healthy, that is absurd.
Yep, every rep is graded. But it makes zero sense to hold an injury against someone. They were ahead of everyone before they were injured for a reason. Lumping injury in with poor grades or being in trouble makes no sense.
Brown can talk about trust all he wants, his defenses still get shredded by decent offenses. Maybe he should try the best athletes instead of the most trustworthy.
"is it fair to bump his time down because you were starting first" A meritocracy doesn't care about fair. It wasn't fair the kid got injured. But when both are back to being healthy the best player should play... full stop. Kids that are injured aren't just laying around. They are putting in work everyday doing rehab.
"Either way, it's a win for Michigan" Not if they are losing talented players because they were unlucky and got injured in a sport that has a high amount of injures. Not that that is happening, maybe time will tell why they left.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:20 AM ^
I know he uses some form of metric to determine who has earned the right to play. You keep saying, “the best player plays” in a meritocracy. That is only a partial picture, and overly simplistic — according to Coach himself.
What if the injured player isn’t putting out as much as expected during his rehab? Should he remain where he was before simply because he used to be highly rated. We’ve seen injured players get fully healed and back to their starting position. Solomon wasn’t able to. He did something wrong, was told he had, and quit.
The best need to work hard too. That’s all I’m saying. If he wasn’t getting the PT he wanted, I’ll bet it was explained to him why that is and what, specifically, he needed to do to rectify it.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:37 AM ^
" What if the injured player isn’t putting out as much as expected during his rehab? Should he remain where he was before simply because he used to be highly rated. "
If he is still the player that gives the team the best chance to win - yes.
December 18th, 2018 at 8:43 AM ^
Thank you. The objective is to win the games.
December 18th, 2018 at 11:30 AM ^
This is tricky. The best player will be determined by talent, effort, and attitude.
I think it's likely that Harbaugh overvalues what a player does OUTSIDE of games to determine this.
It's what a player can do IN a game that matters. If a player doesn't prepare (film study, weight room, diet, rest, etc.) it actually doesn't matter. If he is still the best player in the game, then he should play.
December 18th, 2018 at 11:13 AM ^
"You keep saying, “the best player plays” in a meritocracy. That is only a partial picture, and overly simplistic — according to Coach himself."
This is my whole point... there isn't a meritocracy. A meritocracy is simple, the best players play. The end.
You have no clue if Solomon did something wrong. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
December 18th, 2018 at 1:31 PM ^
All I am going by is what umbib11 said ... You MUST be ready to play when your team needs you. I think the safe assumption there is that Solomon wasn't meeting the expectations of the coaching staff in some measurable way, he was informed as much, felt slighted, and left. Pretty simple.
"I gave you C because, although you are a talented student, you've failed to complete ALL the work necessary to earn a higher grade."
"I got a C because the teacher didn't like me ... "
Sound familiar?
December 18th, 2018 at 8:35 AM ^
" Every rep, every lift, every play is graded and repped. "
Sure... but are we grading (and using for personnel decisions) a number of things with highly suspect predictive validity?
Just because you have and use an objective measure - doesn't mean it's a good one.