Harbaugh's policy on practice/playing time for injured players?

Submitted by Gulogulo37 on December 17th, 2018 at 11:12 PM

Maybe you think this doesn't deserve it's own post, but meh. It's related to Solomon and the recent transfers, but my post is about something more specific. First, I want to say I'm not at all accusing the staff of doing something wrong, but I'm just looking for more information and insight on the situation. I've actually been one of the few defending the program the last couple weeks and I don't think these transfers show there's anything chaotic or unsettling about what's going on in the program, though it does suck for next year.

A lot of people have been guessing about the "common theme" Solomon's mom hinted at regarding transfers. People have mentioned playing time, racism, losing to OSU etc., but the common theme to me seems to be something about how injuries affect the depth chart and how some players perceive that. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all. It's hard to say without knowing more. Umbig11 mentioned this but it's buried on page 6 or so on the board post of Solomon's transfer: "I will keep it short. You need to be available to play to help your team win. He’s missed a lot of games. Last year can be misleading too. He was credited for playing in 3 different games, but only played 7 or 8 snaps. No doubt it will hurt the depth chart. There will be more attrition."

Playing time in and of itself doesn't make sense for obvious reasons given Hudson and Solomon. I also have absolutely no idea how this could be race-related. It's not like these guys are getting benched for scrappy lunch-pail white players. But Hudson transferred almost immediately after being declared behind Steuber once he had a minor injury. It seems like Solomon did roughly the same. People are talking about rumors of Black considering a transfer and that would also seem to be related to injuries. We also all know about Zordich hinting that one of the CBs (Hill or Long? Both? I forget) may be falling behind because of injuries. Walker had other issues, but he also did have some injury issues. I can't recall hearing of anything about Singleton while he was at Michigan but he came in with an injured ACL. Some transfers like Asiasi (family) and Wheatley (weight) don't seem relevant to these latest transfers.

I'd be curious if umbig11 or others could be more specific about how injuries are treated within the program in regards to the depth chart and practice time and whether this is different from other programs. Maybe it's part of Harbaugh's emphasis on competition. There's nothing wrong with that. Some have mentioned how OSU and Alabama have also lost huge numbers of players from recent classes. It'd be hard to compare the reasons for all of these though since most aren't publicly commented on.

M go Bru

December 18th, 2018 at 4:25 AM ^

According to Brian Cook's grading system, Solomon has been greatly outperforming the starting DT when he does play. But for some reason he hasn't been getting a lot of snaps. Who knows why? Could be injury? Could be sickness / flu that was supposedly affecting some players. Or it could be the strange dynamic such as the Bolden / Gideon, Ross / Gil situations.

A lot of great players (Brady, Edwards) almost left the program. We never knew that until after the fact. In this day of instant media these things get reported from day 1. Let it play out. Who knows what the final outcome will be.

I was really hoping Solomon was going to get a lot of playing time in this bowl game and stand out.

You always play through bumps / bruises in football. I played RB in HS and got hit in my inner hamstring. It robbed me of my quickness / burst off the ball for 3 weeks. 

I wonder how much of our play / cramps / lack of pass rush in the last 3 games of the season could be attributed to the flu? I know Solomon left 1 game in the first half and did not return. It was unclear if it was injury or sickness.

4godkingandwol…

December 17th, 2018 at 11:59 PM ^

My guess is it is something about the injury thing. My concern is that it feels like the staff puts unnecessary pressure on kids to play hurt. It may not be direct, in your face messages, but harbaughs comments about it being Rashans decision to not play a game, Zordichs comments about hurt vs injured, and other subtle things just lead me to worry about how the coaches put soft pressure on kids that can be off putting and has potential to blow up in Michigan’s face with headlines like, “harbaugh puts pressure on injured players to play.” Add a few quotes from former players and transfers and linking him back to Durkin and next thing you know... no one is thinking about Urban Meyer and Zach Smith. 

Sten Carlson

December 18th, 2018 at 1:55 AM ^

You’ve got 100 or so guys essentially engaging in a brutal game who once the hitting starts, are basically battered and bruised the entirety of the season.  The odds that you’re going have guys who, for whatever reason, don’t work as hard through their injures, and/or dont maintain their other schematic duties.  If coaches are getting the all clear from the training staff, but the kid is unsure, or isn’t up to speed enough to be fully trusted, and you’re expecting him to contribute, then he gets hurt again, then sick should he be coddled along, or get a stern talking too.  

I’ll bet he got the latter and didn’t like it too much so he left.  I don’t mean good riddance, but if he needs to leave it will open up a spot for someone else.  Obviously, he wasn’t meeting the expectations of the program, and was told as much.  

The Wolverine …

December 18th, 2018 at 6:07 AM ^

I totally agree with this statement, our 10 yr old plays sick all the time come Sunday night/Monday morning, my wife will be like poor little guy, I’m like he’s playing us, she’s like be compassionate babe! I’m like you’ll see....trust me, I’m right every time because I notice his patterns. I also know a grown adult who my wife works with who loves to party on the weekends but loves to call out on Mondays and wonders why their boss treats them like a child sometimes....?

FrozeMangoes

December 18th, 2018 at 12:06 AM ^

It is interesting to think about.  JH did keep playing Kaep when Alex Smith got hurt with the 49ers.  Everything is subjective in playing time and it does seem JH puts a premium on practice reps when determining depth chart.  It is hard to know what is true and what isn't sometimes when he speaks with the press but he also said Peters was second until he got dinged up and then it seems never passed Dylan again. 

 

Bward9

December 18th, 2018 at 1:12 AM ^

Let’s also not forget that Kap led the 49ers to a super bowl and was one play away from winning the whole thing. I’d say that speaks to meritocracy.

Black missed almost the whole season. I’d think we’d be lauding Harbaugh for easing a guy that almost missed two whole seasons of football back in. That seems like it speaks to someone who takes injuries seriously no?

Position coaches are most often the ones who deal with playing time. 

Jonesy

December 18th, 2018 at 12:07 AM ^

" You need to be available to play to help your team win. "

 

You interpret it your way, I interpret it as you have to go to class and stay eligible. We don't really know what he means.

BlueWolverine02

December 18th, 2018 at 12:20 AM ^

I'm not sure I completely buy this.  Playing Bolden over Gedeon?  Throwing a fade to that walk on WR instead of a guy like Black?  Giving freshmen Higdon some of his first carries in a high pressure situation against MSU?  Sometimes I think they play the guys they think earned the right to play as opposed to the guys that give them the best chance to win.  It's not always the same thing.

BlueWolverine02

December 18th, 2018 at 1:28 AM ^

What about them?  When a blanket statement like Harbaugh plays the players that give him the best chance of winning is made, it only takes one instance to punch a hole in that argument.  It's not like I think Harbaugh is intentionally sabotaging the team.  I do think he is stubborn and I wonder if he always makes the best decisions though.  Hell, was holding onto Drevno for so long in the best interest of this team winning?  All you need is a few instances to see a trend.  Why was Gil getting so much PT when Ross was, by most accounts, clearly the better player?  

jgoodman

December 18th, 2018 at 1:06 AM ^

Don't forget Harbaugh giving Joe Milton a snap in the Penn State game for no apparent reason.

 

Honestly, I find this explanation pretty compelling.  It would also explain why Nordin liked Hudson's tweet.  Nordin was starter until he got the flu and then he didn't play again.  Seems like Harbaugh held the flu against him.

 

If Moody was really the better kicker, how come he did not win the job earlier in the year?  Kicking is pretty easy to evaluate in practice: have them both kick 100 fields goals and give the starting job to whoever makes more.  If was Moody was truly the better kicker, he should have started from day one.  

 

jgoodman

December 18th, 2018 at 1:21 AM ^

Nordin has been missing kicks since last year, yet somehow Moody only took over the starting job once Nordin got sick.  The timing is suspicious.  Was one week of illness really all it took for Moody to overtake Nordin in terms of skill?

 

If Jordan Poole got sick for a week, would you expect Charles Matthews to suddenly be a better shooter than him?

The Wolverine …

December 18th, 2018 at 6:18 AM ^

I really think it was Moody being clutch in a real game situation. I’ve played basketball for over 35 yrs and I’ve played with some great practice players who started because they were killing it, but weren’t great players during a real game situation that couldn’t make it happen like they did in practice. With that being said I think Nordin may have been the better kicker in practice, but we all have seen him miss plenty of times in games. Moody made it happen in the real game situation.

Bward9

December 18th, 2018 at 1:30 AM ^

The takes on here are laughably dumb. The only one I’ll give any shred of credibility to is starting Bolden. Even then the biggest problem with the 2015 defense were injuries to Glasgow and Mone.

Milton got a snap in a 42-7 win Wow! The horror! 

Nordin? Really Nordin? Did you watch the guy kick?

McCurry played in a game we got throttled by OSU.

Just keep the conspiracy theories coming. I hear the earth is flat, we didn’t land on the moon, you shouldn’t immunize your children, the US took the towers down. This board is a clown show.

Bward9

December 18th, 2018 at 1:50 AM ^

I think we’re extremely thin at WR. You can’t play DPJ and Collins the whole game. Your other options are: 

Bell- true freshman, needs to add weight.

Martin-has had trouble getting open 

Perry-I’ll give you has played less than expected can’t remember his snap count during the game.

Black-A guy who has missed almost two whole seasons due to injury.

I’m not going to go back and research at what time the play happened, but I think by then the game was effectively over. Even disregarding that, when your down that much your playing four wide receivers at once, and often running go routes. The top two guys could need a breather especially when one is a punt returner. I can see him getting in there. So yes I have no problem. Especially when you get fifteen yards. 

FrozeMangoes

December 18th, 2018 at 12:29 PM ^

Nordin had struggled for almost two years.  It took him getting the flu to lose his job. That isn't a meritocracy. Why wasn't Moody kicking earllier?  Why does Gil play over Ross? Why did O'Korn play over Peters? Why did Owenu play over Ruiz then Ruiz over Owenu after Owenu got hurt?  Why does McCurry ever see the field.  He is the 8th best WR in an offense that primarly uses 2.


 

Sten Carlson

December 18th, 2018 at 1:44 AM ^

What else is the reward for a football player other than playing time?  

Everyone there, from walk-on to 5* wants PT.  Harbaugh has said he measures everything and uses the collected data as carrots, if you will, to earn PT.  

If a player who is battling up the depth chart performs to a point when he’s earned a rep, wouldn’t the only true reward in a  meritocracy be getting an opportunity to make an impact in the game for your team?  Is garbage time the only reward he should get even though to earn that rep he had to put perform someone ahead of him on the depth chart?  That’s why we saw Milton, DMac, and others.  You earned the right to go make a play, go attack the opportunity.  

Fans criticize when it doesn’t work, but people act like a coach is a genius when it does.  The kid is developing and doing everything you want him to do, find a spot for him to have a shot.

arrowhead

December 18th, 2018 at 1:03 AM ^

You've got a lot of assistant coaches relying on a salary to support their families, etc. Assistants run the show and HC's respect their opinions or else replace their assistants. I can't image, for example, an experienced OL coach favoring one guy over another except for skill levels. While I don't recall as many players leaving DURING the season it is what it is and if you can't accept being dropped a "level" during practice then you either work harder or quit. Has Solomon done anything during the past 2 seasons?

Fortunately for us, JH knows how to coach (although it might not show up all the time). His record is pretty air tight. He has some pretty good assistants with proven track records. If an assistant has one player over another JH will accept that as he should. 

 

Magnum P.I.

December 18th, 2018 at 8:14 AM ^

Yeah, my take is that Harbaugh is just an old-school coach who thinks he's playing the long program culture game by rewarding guys who are "tough" and fight through minor injuries with more playing time. It is kind of an outdated approach given what we know now about the importance of taking care of one's body and tending to minor injuries so they don't turn into major ones. But it's his approach to culture building, and he's been successful with it.

Everyone here is losing their mind about the racial element, too, but the reality is that a Black player is more likely to come from a low-income background than a White player. This is a statistical fact. Low-income players, especially talented ones, have more on the line when it comes to staying healthy and giving themselves a shot at an NFL payday. Staying healthy means not pushing it when you have minor injuries.

Not pushing it when you have minor injuries seems to mean that you lose playing time and "trust" in Harbaugh's system. It's not rocket science here. 

Realus

December 18th, 2018 at 11:18 AM ^

Sadly I am starting to agree with you.  When Harbaugh first came to Michigan, I thought we were getting the best coach possible.

But I think Harbaugh has a couple of major issues:

1) He thinks there are "right" ways to win:  A strong defense, a ball control offense.  I can't believe I am saying this but I think Harbaugh would almost rather win time of possession than the game.  His criminal lack of use of the incredible receiving talent he has in favor of his admittedly good RBs and FBs is insane.  A better offensive coach would likely be passing 60% to 70% of the time.  Not so because passing is so much better, but because he's got the dudes on offense to run an aggressive passing attack.

Other than having integrity and scoring more points than the other team, there are NO right ways to win.

2) He is old school with all of that "thoughness" bullshit.  It is possible that Harbaugh runs the toughest practices in the country.  This wears down players bodies and may create situations where very good or great players don't succeed.

3) He is old school and will award playing time based on how well a kid practices, how much he goes to class, etc.  Similar to item 1.  While that is important to creating a certain culture, it is not putting the best players on the field to win.

One thing is for SURE.  Harbaugh is NOT running a meritocracy.  Maybe something close to it, (I don't think so) but definitely not a meritocracy.

To be clear, I still thin Harbaugh is the best coach for Michigan.  His many strengths include:

1) Having the best record since 2004 to 2007.  In fact, if we win the bowl game, we will have a better record than 2004 to 2007.  We would match 2001 to 2004.

2) Having a proven ability as a coach and program builder (see all of his previous coaching stops).

3) Having some integrity.  As an outside observer, it is hard to tell exactly how much integrity UM football has.  But I will say with complete confidence that we are in the top half.

4) Player development - It seems that players develop very well under Harbaugh and his staff.

5) Game plan - Usually very good to great.  Not always though :-(

6) In game coaching - at least in the top 25, probably top 10.

7) Defense - Great defensive staff

So he is very, very good.  I though he was elite but now I am not sure.

Magnum P.I.

December 18th, 2018 at 12:58 PM ^

Oh, I think Harbaugh is a great coach, and I can't think of anyone else I'd want in his place here. I'm not even criticizing his playcalling (though I agree it would've been nice to make better use of our receiving talent--recruits take note of that stuff, too). He's just an old-school guy when it comes to ideas on being hurt/injured, "tough", etc. I'm sure Harbaugh loves guys like Ben Mason who will play through anything and sacrifice anything to help the team win (to be honest, what coach wouldn't). But Ben Mason knows that he's not playing in the NFL and therefore doesn't have millions and millions of dollars to lose if he gets an injury.

Guys like I imagine Solomon to be (I'm speculating of course) are probably going to be tough fits with Harbaugh. Highly rated guys like Solomon are rightfully focused on doing what they need to do in college to get to the NFL and get paid. For guys with likely NFL futures, the logical thing to do if you get a small injury is to hold yourself out. There's too much on the line. Under Harbaugh, though, this decision also means you might lose playing time once you're healthy, which also risks your NFL future. It's all about maximizing the likelihood of an NFL payday for the top-rated guys. 

Jimmyisgod

December 18th, 2018 at 7:50 AM ^

Leave it up to this site to start totally unfounded racism rumors. 

Kids are leaving because Harbaugh is tough, we want him to be tough. They’re also leaving because the competition is high. And they’re leaving for all the other normal reasons, homesick, school is too hard, playing time, etc etc. 

We’re bribing in 26 kids a class the last 4 years. That allows us to have more turnover. OSU and MSU have been bringing in less. That gives us an advantage. 

Carcajou

December 18th, 2018 at 7:55 AM ^

The definitions of a couple of terms seem to be used differently here:
Meritocracy: while for some this may mean simply the most able, the most skilled athlete; but in another way it refers to the person who "achieves" or "earns" the most in a given time period, especially that week in practice (and meetings and the weight room). It's a morale issue for the rest of the team as well. Add to that the mental aspect of the game, which coaches evaluate but we can speculate on (knowing and executing the right assignments, etc.), probably has something to do with many of the personnel decisions we question. A linebacker who is a superior talent but who can't make the proper checks and gets his own assignments wrong is a liability.

Trust: can have a lot of meanings--trust in the players to act responsibly off the field; players trusting the coaches and trainers and doing what they are asked to do; (especially defensive) coaches often use it to describe the importance on focusing on one's own assignment, maintaining one's gap or responsibiliity and playing team defense raither than "freelancing" to make a play that destroys the structure of a defense.

HL2VCTRS

December 18th, 2018 at 8:18 AM ^

I think your first definition is really important. I’ve never taken the meritocracy as “the most talented player will play,” but more as the hardest working talented player will play. Good players who work during the week will be trusted to play on Saturdays. Good players who can’t or won’t work during the week will get left behind. 

I’m not necessarily saying that philosophy is right or wrong... just my interpretation of meritocracy in Harbaugh’s lingo. 

Franz Schubert

December 18th, 2018 at 8:58 AM ^

I’m saying you play the best player in order to win. That’s the objective right? Winning games. Do you think Urbsn Meyer would play a less talented player because he works incredibly hard? Hell no, he’s all about winning.  Handicapping your team on some outdated notion of manball or toughness is stupid. Meritocracy is based on talent. The best player plays, give the intangible guys some snaps when the outcome is decided. 

Sten Carlson

December 18th, 2018 at 9:52 AM ^

Meritocracy is NOT based on talent as talent is a nebulous, subjective measure.

What if you’ve got a 5* player who is super talented, but completely lazy and all but refuses to do more than the bare minimum, do you play him anyway?  How then do you motivate the other, not as talented, players to work as hard as possible to maximize their talent?

What you’re proposing is the complete antithesis of proper motivation, and I’d be shocked to find out that any elite coach uses this kind of system. 

Franz Schubert

December 18th, 2018 at 10:02 AM ^

You play the player that gives you the best chance to win, which is the most talented. Period. It’s most assuredly what Saban and Meyer do to win. Not playing someone as punishment for being injured is dumb. 

Sten Carlson

December 18th, 2018 at 1:38 PM ^

It's not, Period though, no matter how often you say it is.  The annuls of sports history are littered with uber talented players who, for a variety of reasons, weren't able to produce.  Further, and perhaps MOST importantly for the effective functioning of a CFB program, are all the instances of player who DO PERFORM against all odds.  How do you define and quantify talent? 

In almost every walk of life the saying, "talent will only take you so far ..." is applicable.  Your perspective and comments are so overly simplistic and naive it's almost staggering.  But, I guess anything to discredit Harbaugh.

Sten Carlson

December 18th, 2018 at 9:18 AM ^

This ^^^ !!!!

I said almost the exact same thing above, but you defined it better, Carcajou.  

Rebuttals to my post we’re overly simplistic.  The idea is that one cannot excel upon talent alone.  Again, I’m not saying this is what happened with Solomon.  But, Harbaugh made it clear that players are never “in the dark” about why they’re in their particular depth position because they measure EVERYTHING and use those data to quantify PT.  

At Michigan, being the “best” isn’t only measured on the game field — although I’ll bet there is some kind of weighting system — it’s measured in the classroom, meeting room, weight room, practice field, etc.  A guy drops out of the rotation, possibly to a less talented player, because he’s being out performed in some other area.  Fans, or some fans, think this a travesty — see above — and think the “best player should play” ... full stop!  But, if you’re responsible for building a culture of 100% dedication and hard work, allowing a more talented player to skate by, when other players know they’re not working hardest, totally destroys the backbone of your culture.  

Mr. Yost

December 18th, 2018 at 8:52 AM ^

Guys, PLEASE STOP!!! I haven't been on this board in over a year (maybe more), but I actually woke up to a text message from a former player saying "you see your boys on MGoBlog? That's how this shit starts...wait until the media or other coaches get a hold of this! SMDH."

I'm only posting because players, parents, RECRUITS, and media are reading what you're saying. I'm now working back in the B1G (not Michigan) - but yes, other schools read your comments as well and they will make their way into the hands of recruits. Now that you've seen him, do you really think crazy ass Zach Smith wasn't taking threads like this and using them against Michigan?

And they don't call it negative recruiting (even though it is), because they don't have to say anything...it's you all providing the content, they're just the messenger to get it in the hands of a recruit or his parents. I've sat in senior staff meetings and talked about how we were going to "change the narrative" - these threads have real impact. 

 

Anyway, some of the reading comprehension in this thread is GOD AWFUL, the OP was NOT saying race had anything to do with the recent transfers. He gave examples of speculation from others. He's saying our coaches bench you when you say you're hurt and you don't automatically reclaim your spot that you felt you've earned. This is problematic, but it's not far-fetched when you think about Harbaugh. In fact, it's exactly what's happening. 100% confirmed.

In addition, Harbaugh is a shitty communicator on almost everything...so HE may be benching you because he thinks you're a pussy and you should practice or play through being hurt because you're not actually injured...but he may not tell you. Now this is 2018, if you're an 18 year old black kid in today's climate...do you think it's out of the question you or your family may question if it's race if no one is being straight up? Especially when people are in your ear and undoubtedly there is someone who is going to mention it and make you think, even if you weren't thinking about it before. Again, Harbaugh has to know that's coming. 

(Want another example of Harbaugh being a terrible communicator? See Jennifer Coney. Harbaugh absolutely didn't mean what he said or came across as saying - but it's 2018, you have to be smarter.)

Mind you - in Harbaugh's defense, if you're a coach, you CANNOT say "I think you're being a pussy and you should be practicing and playing through this being hurt...and if you're truly injured, sit your ass on the bench and get out of my practice." That would be a disaster. So the communication never happens, minds wander, it's a fucking mess. In reality it's Harbaugh that's going to have to change, the kid in 2018, going on 2019, is not.

It's not race and it IS injuries and Harbaugh, for whatever reason hasn't adjusted to today's climate or today's student-athlete. This isn't Bo and this isn't the 70's and 80's. If you want a team full of Mike Martin, Vincent Smith, Taylor Lewan, Wormley, Glasgow and Winovich's, that's what you should recruit. Harbaugh called Ben Mason his favorite player after ONE camp as a true freshman. How telling is that? A freshman! It's not because Ben Mason is white, it's because he's a crazy person that has a high tolerance for pain and he's a true tough guy. A Harbaugh guy. But, he's also white...and again, you have to be careful/smarter in 2018 as much as that sucks - things can and will get taken out of context.

But please stop with the race argument, you do NOT want that floating around this program. It actually already does without the fanbase arguing about it. I've always said Harbaugh is missing the boat by not having more black assistant coaches who can truly relate to kids from tougher or urban backgrounds (and their parents) - take that how you want, but it matters. Wheatley was his saving grace and he's gone.

Race is ALWAYS going to be factor in everything whether was choose to talk about it or not, I'm just asking that you all be responsible. You have a sport dominated by young black men, led in this (and many cases) by old white men. We can acknowledge that race is ALWAYS a factor in today's work without speculating on if it's the reason for all of these transfers OR complaining because someone brought it up as a reason for the transfers. Newsflash, no matter WHAT happens in today's world, race is ALWAYS going to be brought up as a possible factor if multiple races are involved. Debating or getting mad about that fact isn't helping. Again, just be responsible.

 

TL:DR - Stop arguing/complaining about race in this thread - it's not what the OP said and some of you are so fucking sensitive that it gets brought up in an OP and you ignore the whole post (which was telling you exactly what's happening). You all always want inside info and he literally gave you some. Understand that just like a recruit and his Twitter...anything YOU put on the internet (including this website) can be used against Michigan.

The OP is correct, this is about Harbaugh's philosophy on playing injured versus playing hurt (right or wrong, that's what it comes down to). Harbaugh needs to adjust or his philosophy is going to come back to hurt him - even if he's in the right.

As for Harbaugh, all he has to do is acknowledge it, address the entire team, squash the race bullshit and be clear on injuries vs. being hurt and how it'll impact playing time. That said it's time he change his mindset and allow for a little more leeway. Stop hiding being that meritocracy bullshit.