WTKA Roundtable 4/22/2021: The Ingrained Provenance of Football
Things discussed:
- Gymnastics Natty!
- BTN Plus is awful. They are making it impossible to grow their fanbases because you have to be hardcore to be there. Production is the pits.
- Was Michigan right to quash their spring and keep the spring game to a minute of useless tape?
- Big discussion about how the program is killing any goodwill that’s left, only letting the haters air their grievances.
- The 20- and 30-somethings aren’t as tied to Michigan anymore because they haven’t been engaged. They’re Dave Brandon’ing.
- Basketball: did the opposite. Craig tells the story of Beilein walking the media through a practice.
- How did Al Borges benefit from inviting Heiko in?
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment two is available here. You can also watch the video here:
THE USUAL LINKS
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
- Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
I can’t believe I have to tell this to an athlete: DON’T LISTEN TO YOUR HATERS.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:18 PM ^
Of all the things Harbaugh might have accomplished in his tenure as head coach, absolutely killing fan interest in the program was not on my list.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:40 PM ^
It's not all on him. OSU building a football factory and taking us behind the woodshed every year is really becoming a monster monkey on the programs' back. As long as that keeps happening...well, nobody enjoys being taken behind the woodshed.
84 grad here. I think football IS at a bit of a tipping point--tipping over into something like real oblivion, that is. You just hope that someone like Warde sees this.
I was a person who watched despite himself over the years. I don't do that anymore.
EDIT: I agree that this is not tied to the spring game.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:37 PM ^
I agree with the discussion. I guess we have to send emails about the program. I was vaguely fine with Harbaugh coming back to coach, but I'm very irritated that they actively seem to dislike their fans. What's the point? I'd rather go root for a team that wants the fans. I agree that Michigan fans are too negative, but you make people more positive by showing them progress, giving them hope. This is not that :/
I don't think Harbaugh/Michigan football hate their fans at all.....I think Harbaugh doesn't make it easy for himself with the media and in turn the media comes after him so his response is to limit their access......
Thats all and not very smart on his part....lets not make this more than it is.
I agree that Harbaugh doesn't make things easy for himself. An easy way to help with media relations is to create access/visibility for some of the charismatic young coaches that have been added to the staff. They all have stories that fans want to hear. It is a way to begin rebuilding the relationship with the fans.
April 22nd, 2021 at 10:08 PM ^
Michigan fans are collateral damage due to his actions vs the media.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:39 PM ^
I understand the argument for not showing the spring game but come out on the other side. I think fans are pretty forgiving about what happens in the spring. We just want to see our team. And I think that almost any performance would have left us with a better taste in our mouths re: the program than what last season left us with. Right now, the thought of watching the team this fall ranks slightly below my next trip to the dentist when it comes to things I'm looking forward to.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:43 PM ^
The fort mentality is annoying but we should probably also remember that the vast majority of fans are not nearly as invested in the day-to-day machinations as people who run a blog dedicated to the school's athletics and a radio station similarly aligned with said teams. Had something resembling a spring game occurred everyone would have complained about how some parts of the team looked like garbage, others looked fine, and then a week later nobody would have cared. Do I think they should have had a game? Sure, it would be nice. But do I think "haters" would have stopped railing against the program if one had occurred? Nope.
I'm largely staying out of these conversations at this point because the opinion of this blog is that Harbaugh will be gone in a year so who cares, and I don't see the value in arguing that, perhaps, all is not over. But we've now got a handful of months to fret about other things, I guess.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:49 PM ^
I agree that showing or not showing the spring game is not a big deal overall. Harbaugh's fate will come down to winning or losing real games. But, as you say, it would have been nice (nothing more or less) to see the spring game.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
I disagree with you. Harbaugh will remain in charge until Michigan Football stops making as much money as it does.
The man is 0-5 against Ohio State, with 3 of the games noncompetitive.
If his name was Jim Cooper or Jim Fleck, he'd have already been fired.
Absolutely. I would have liked to see the guys practice because it got annoying reading reports of some people saying player X or position Y was garbage and then others say the opposite with just as much conviction. But I also don't think the vast majority of fans care either way and they just want UM to win, and that's unlikely to change regardless of how open a single practice is in April.
Winning will cure all, but we could use some fun too. What I've said before and will say again is this: if a Wolverine scores a touchdown, he should do the Ickey Shuffle. We need to be disciplined about this.
RE: Winning and fun. My thousand-foot-view is that at least a reasonable percentage of the team feels exactly this way. And I miss the Ickey Shuffle. Let's do it.
I would have liked to have seen a Spring Practice, simply because I'm a junky. LOL
The problem is.....most fans see Spring Practice and over analyze everything. They take the good as "THIS GUY IS AWESOME" and the bad as "THIS GUY IS TERRIBLE".....or "WHY ISN'T 'insert player here' STARTING/PLAYING?!". Tate Forcier comes to mind. That guy looked like the greatest thing since the wheel was invented. LOL. Maybe (at the same time) Sam McGuffie's hype was equally amazing. That era was most definitely open to the media and fans, but that didn't help at all.
I agree with Sam's "devil's advocate" take on the whole thing. It doesn't help anything, and only opens the door for more criticism, of the players and coaches.....from practices that are 4-5 months away from even starting fall practice. The kids read those things (regardless if they try or not), and it could definitely mess with their psyche. Those practices matter as far as development goes, but not from a fan expectation.
Also, with a new defensive scheme.....it is advantageous to not give the MSU's and OSU's of the world a whole summer to look at any kind of tape of that......because......they WILL. Regardless of how small.....any competitive advantage must be utilized.
As a fan, I just like to see the players play. If I were a coach.....then I wouldn't let anyone in to see this particular spring practice, either.
Tyrone Wheatley Jr’s touchdown at the open Ford Field practice, for example; didn’t seem to do him any favors.
If Spring Games "don't help anything"... why are almost all successful football programs doing them?
I mean, Kansas just had their spring game and they went 0-9. Most schools hold them as a way to generate interest and make money via sponsorships, food, parking, etc. I think UM should have them but I wouldn't consider it a prerequisite for success.
Spring Games are just a scrimmage, within the team. They are normally open to the public to help create excitement amongst the fan base. To show what they have been working on, and to introduce the newest players.
Does not normally translate into games. Example...a few years ago......Nate Schoenle (former walk on) looked like a stud, and was heavily targeted in the Spring Game. If you saw that name and said "who", then that's all you need to know about the legitimacy of Spring Game performance.
This year....not only is the fan base RIDICULOUSLY negative on the program (At the moment), and will do nothing but take the Spring Game performance to write nothing but nonstop negativity online, but the coaches are bringing in a brand new defensive system. Why would they show what they've been working on, to the public, when nobody knows what our defense is going to look like? Including our opponents....especially our rivals. What sense does that make?
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:43 PM ^
Are there any other major programs that actively try to hide their spring game from their alumni and fans?
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:44 PM ^
Arguments aside, the fan base generally likes football. It sucks to not see it.
April 22nd, 2021 at 12:46 PM ^
I think what has happened here is that the football program has basically lost the blind allegiance that it held forever. This is absolutely not all on Harbaugh. This started with the end of the Carr era, was made far worse with the Rich Rod era, and solidified with the Hoke era. The final kick in the nuts for this fanbase has been the fact that the messiah has not been and most likely is not the messiah. People have officially stopped the blind allegiance and are moving on with their lives. That being said, a couple of big seasons or a win over OSU can get things back on track quickly. People will come back in droves whenever the turnaround finally happens. The sad thing is that only God knows when that will happen!
I don't think it will take championship seasons, or even a win against OSU, to bring fans back in droves. Show us some progress towards success, and we'll follow happily! But all I've seen is regression over the last 4 years. Instead of improving on modern offensive football, we've seen stagnation instead of innovation and strict adherence to stubborn philosophies that have proven unreliable.
I expected Harbaugh to bring an offense that would be fundamentally sound, well thought-out, and cutting edge - based on what I saw from Stanford and San Francisco. We've gotten very little of that. Mostly, what we've seen is the same things we've seen since his arrival - insistence on running between the tackles (whether we can do it, or not); poor time management; a zero-risk passing game rooted in yesterdays tactics; an inability to place talent where it's good (ie: why did Chris Evans rarely go outside on a pass route instead of running past a guard? WTF?); and reluctance to deviate from what's not working.
I'm okay with the defense and special teams, but the offense has severely let me down. Show me improvement in those areas this year, and I'll climb fully back onto the JH bandwagon. Don't have to necessarily win everything - but show me those improvements. They will bring you instant competitiveness to grow from...
Oh yeah the RR era,where the team got better every year, just like now. Oh wait. Why RR still gets killed around here and JH still has a large part of the fan base behind him is mind boggling. Both were failures. Both.
"Oh yeah the RR era,where the team got better every year". This is such a stupid argument. Pretty easy to improve when you start your tenure at 3-9 and follow that up with 5-7. I supported Rich Rod at the time, but the guy sucked. That's why he still gets killed around here.
Did his record improve? Yes. Did I say he failed here? Yes. What in my message was wrong?
Lol
? ? ? ? ? ? ?
BWAHAHA!
Wait....wait.....HahahaHahahaHahahaHahahaHahahaHahahaHahahaHahaha.
Ok...I'm done now.
You are seriously comparing (Full seasons) 3 wins, 5 wins, and 7 wins.....after taking over a 9-4 team.
To
10 wins, 10 wins, 8 wins, 10 wins, 9 wins, and COVID half season....after taking over a 5-7 team?
What in the actual hell?! ? ? ?
See....this is the kind of stupid logic that runs rampant around here. THIS is a serious comment, that you think is reasonable. For the love of God....make it stop! ? ? ? ?
Regardless of your expectations for Harbaugh have been met or not....to say that the Harbaugh and the RR eras are even remotely in the same ballpark is just pure nonsense.
Again what in my comment is wrong? Tell me 1 single thing that I said that isn't true? ??????????????????????????????????????♂️????????♂️??????♂️?????????❤????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!?♂️?♂️?♂️?????????
April 23rd, 2021 at 11:30 AM ^
Listen. I feel like RR got a bad break. I feel like he was a good coach, but the program and it's fan base sabotaged his ability to do anything significant.
With that said.....the results still should have been better than 15 wins, in 3 seasons.
Your nonsensical statement of wondering why RR gets grief, and Harbaugh "has fans behind him".
Well, how about the fact that RR's BEST year is worse than Harbaugh's WORST (full) year. How about the fact that RR's first two seasons COMBINED have as many wins as Harbaugh’s worst (full) year. I mean....it's not rocket science.
Carr started the process of digging the hole. RR brought out the fucking back hole and dug a cave. Hoke came in and continued to tunnel into that hole. Meanwhile, OSU (At the same time) was building a mountain the size of Mount Everest.
Harbaugh came in and filled in that entire hole. It's even now. The fan base is pissed that he hasn't gotten to the same sized mountain as OSU has. The fan base that is behind Harbaugh is the group that remembers the fucking hole we were in, and appreciates not being there anymore. That understand that digging out of the hole and building the mountain are hard to do quickly, and at the same time. They watched one coach start to fail, and blamed it on his age. Then, they watched a super successful coach come in and completely fail. Then, watched another moderately successful coach fail some more. They watched Harbaugh come in and immediately turn things around. That's not "Michigan being Michigan"....that was the byproduct of Harbaugh’s program building.
Now, has Harbaugh lived up to the expectations of the fan base, from when he was hired? That's debatable. Most on here would say no. Some would say those expectations were unreasonable, to begin with. Regardless of what your stance is....you have to admit that he pulled us out of that hole.
However, to say that RR and Harbaugh are on the same level, as Michigan head coaches, is just on another level of idiocy. I mean.....seriously. What a ridiculous thing to even pretend is legitimate. Makes me wonder what kind of fans we have.....if that logic makes ANY sense, to them. ?♂️
Damn you suck at reading. Show me one line anywhere that I said they are on the same level?? Fuck you are an idiot.
April 22nd, 2021 at 10:47 PM ^
At least RR left us with the annual "BBQ" that still exists today !
didn't they cancel the spring game 2 years ago as well?
During the covid year, its obviously understandable.
Even crappy teams like Illinois have had a spring game this year....
Seth, you're wrong about the spring game!
Actually, you're right about the game but I wanted to make you right that most comments are negative.
You and Craig are also right that engaging fans is better than keeping them on the outside looking in.
Whoa. I definitely wasn't expecting such a deep dive on Al Borges. Seth throwing down the 27-for-27 card.
Things got rough there for a moment.
I haven't listened yet but I think the tensest I've seen Sam and Brian on the radio was when Sam was defending Borges and Brian was tearing into him.
I mean, we are not going to rehabilitate Al Borges.
There is knowledge, and there is application. Al Borges has forgotten more about football than most of us (MGoCoaches excepted) ever knew. Just because someone knows lots about offensive football doesn't mean that they can...
- Recruit
- Evaluate Talent
- Communicate the offensive ideas to the players.
- Develop talent.
- Put players into a position where they can succeed. (This is my nicer way of saying the inverse of what you said on the pod: "AL BORGES PUT DENARD UNDER CENTER.")
Building a relationship with a fanbase can build goodwill. But goodwill can't replace the above.
I completely agree - BTN+ is the pits. I agree with Seth that it's stupid for the network and the conference to make fans pay extra for these products - it does nothing to help the sports grow. Showcase your products, help them thrive.
What I didn't understand about the BTN+ discussion was the pricing conversation...
All sports, the whole conference is $15/month or $120/year (save $60)
All sports, Michigan only is $10/month or $80/year (save $40)
I got this for my son for his birthday. He loves it.
We discussed this. The way you get fans is they have interest because your recruiting is good or you are on a winning streak or something. They want to check it out. You're not going to turn down $80 or $100. You may be in a mood to say screw it and throw down 15. Then the quality is so terrible you are mad and don't want to watch the next game.
Streaming gives them such an opportunity to grow their fan base for these Sports, and if you're into one you start getting into another one. Advertising is already built in and they're already paying for the sports.
I had the now defunct BTN international 8 years ago or so and it was total garbage.
Sam is spot on. Michigan's football program is under fire from the very loud pessimistic portion of the fan base. The coaches are installing a new defense that probably makes a lot of mistakes right now. If they show that, all it will do is give ammunition to the crowd that wants to see Michigan fire Harbaugh.
As much as I want to see Michigan football, opening up the program seems far more likely to create more negative takes than positives right now.
If the offense looks good, people will focus on how bad the defense is. If the defense makes a play, people will trash the offense.
There's nothing to gain. The haters will spin everything into a negative to fit their narrative.
On top of that, they have a first time play caller DC who doesn't have any film yet. Running a public spring game gives Washington more to scout. Running vanilla plays only takes away game like reps and valuable experience.
Fans want to win. I'm in favor of the program doing everything in their power to make that happen.
VERY well stated!
So hide so people can't say anything mean. L what a fucking pathetic program ??????????????????????
Or just stop treating your fans like shit. Sports is supposed to be fun and entertainment, Michigan treats it like it's some special treat that if we are all good boys and girls, they will give us a cookie. Clowns
April 23rd, 2021 at 10:46 AM ^
Michigan: says nothing and prepares for the season.
MgoKarens: Michigan hates its fans and is pathetic!
I think you've proven the point!
This fan base deserves this program
Is the Roundtable ending? Why did Sam say they've agreed to another week?
They usually pause after basketball and then come back again for football. It's not ending permanently.
For those who want to watch more gymnastics. SEC Network has "Friday Night Heights," which my wife loves. They have 2 meets every Friday Night. BTN has gymnastics on occasionally and the coverage predictably sucks. They only update the scores after every rotation, vs after every routine on ESPN/SEC Network.
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