11 Warriors: Sympathy For The Devil
A sobering perspective on how far UM football has fallen in the rivalry (and national relevance). It's been so long since we've had any success in this game, at least in the win column. There have been some good games and some bad. There has been bad luck and injuries. But, the consistent factor is being on the losing side of the win/loss column.
Even though we're a little frustrated with the last season, the finish to the 2018 class, and some questional assistant hires or lack of fires, this article illuminated for me that coaching consistency is the best thing for us. We probably aren't getting any better coach than JH, and although we want it quicker than we're getting it, keeping him around for as long as he wants to be around seems like what's best for UM. We all knew last year was a rebuilding year and I get the feeling that a good 2018 on the field with a few key wins will give the program the energy it needs to regain it's recruiting momentum and take us into the future with a better shot in this rivalry than we've had in quite some time, even if it doesn't return to what it was in the 90s.
February 20th, 2018 at 4:15 PM ^
that the inexplicable failure of Hoke (Why did he not do better?) after the direction change from RR really hurt.
Harbaugh and Drev haven't done as well as I would hope, but I think they are better. We have recruited good interior line talent; and we have seen development. On top of that, we've had shitty luck with guys leaving for cause and getting injured.
This season upcoming is a big one; can we get an 'Okay' offensive line in pass pro and 'good' offensive line in run blocking? If we do that, we are in good shape.
If we do that, and get real QB play (and everyone gird yourselves, it may start slow. I wouldn't be shocked by a 'Rudock' progression with a Patterson), then we have a real shot at winning the conference.
February 20th, 2018 at 5:22 PM ^
That's a good assessment: "can we get an 'Okay' offensive line in pass pro and 'good' offensive line in run blocking?"
That is a reasonable split for the OL. If we get that, I'd be absolutely delighted. That's what I'll be hoping for.
February 21st, 2018 at 2:21 AM ^
"Many Michigan fans have been too arrogant, taken success as their birthright. It is hard to be an elite team. Personally, I don't mind that some fans have been brought down a few notches."
I agree there. A little more humility cloaking a quiet confidence would be one thing you'd think the last decade or so would have brought us.
February 20th, 2018 at 1:00 PM ^
Anyone who thinks Harbaugh needs to be replaced needs to have their head examined. Unless he totally craters the team (sub-500) for 2 or 3 years, there is zero chance he goes anywhere. Who would be better? Saban and Meyer are taken.
Our offense blew for several reasons last year. Harbaugh believes he has addressed that, or is addressing it. Maybe Frey was what broke the committee approach Harbaugh prefers.
Personally, I think we are playing for the BIG title in the 'Shoe this year.
February 20th, 2018 at 2:01 PM ^
Well, one plays for the Big Ten title in Indianapolis now, but your point is taken.
February 20th, 2018 at 2:56 PM ^
The trouble is, as fans we only have a very shallow bird's eye view of the program. I would hope at least 95% of people on this blog could see the mitigating circumstances of 2017, but I'm not sure. Regardless, fans want to feel like something is going to change after a bad season, so they look at the things that they can look at.
They look at recruiting: Well, unfortunately this small class isn't very highly ranked. Is it relevant for next year? No. But it's not what fans want to see. So then they look at coaches. They want to see change. They can't see the locker room discussions or duty-relegations, so they just hope for a staff shake up. Well, there have been changes but nothing obstensively major. Does it mean the current staff can't find a way to win? I don't know for sure, but it doesn't seem like a very well-reasoned argument to me.
As things have it, here we are with Harbaugh 0-3 vs. OSU, but if you ask me I think we pick up in 2018 where we left off in 2016. This time we just have to find that extra 0.1%.
February 20th, 2018 at 3:48 PM ^
"Anyone who thinks Harbaugh needs to be replaced needs to have their head examined. Unless he totally craters the team (sub-500) for 2 or 3 years, there is zero chance he goes anywhere."
Thinking Harbaugh needs to be replaced right now is really dumb, I agree, but I don't think there is anyone in our fanbase who believes that. Probably <1% of Michigan fans.
The question is: if Harbaugh keeps losing to rivals and can't find a way to beat OSU, do we just let that go on indefinitely? What if he is 1-8 against rivals after next season? Finishes behind OSU and MSU again? Harbaugh's teams have found a way to lose literally every chance at a signature win, despite leading and even looking dominant early in some of those games. That is extremely concerning and makes it hard to be optimistic.
IMO two more seasons are guaranteed for Harbaugh. He needs one win against OSU by the end of 2019, and two against MSU. Any less and you have to give another coach a chance. Make Don Brown HC and let him bring in the best OC available. Try something else.
With all this being said, I think Shea, if eligible, can do a ton to get us over the hump this year. I'm no master of evaluating tape, but this guy seems like he will be able to have success despite the OL. If he can play at an elite level (come close to matching his starz, essentially) and Michigan's young, talented receivers take the next step, then Michigan suddenly has a top 25 offense.
February 20th, 2018 at 1:01 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 1:03 PM ^
The worst year in program history has its 10-year anniversary this fall, and there's been little to no recourse for the lumps it has taken trying to figure out what it should become in the post-Carr era. Michigan has cycled through leadership, chaos, controversy and coaches. The only consistency has been disappointment.
I may not always agree with Ramzy, but I respect his writing and opinions, and in this sentence, he touches on something that I think we as a fanbase are experiencing. For about 40 years, we were consistent and had an identity - a very clear identity.
Then there was 2008, then a lot of up and down and left and right and terrible offensive line play and so on and so forth, then we hire Harbaugh. We are quite far removed from having a consistent identity, and Harbaugh is really only in the early to mid stages of giving it a consistent identity again, I would say.
The disappointment is there, and the burden of it is heavy, but I think we've got the right person at the helm. The question is this - can he build the staff to eventually do what we're all hoping he would do?
February 20th, 2018 at 1:24 PM ^
I don't. I don't respect him, as a person or as a professional (whatever his profession might be).
There are a lot of good writers and good people at 11W; Ramzy Nasrallah is not one of them. I understand some of the attraction, insofar as Ramzy was a critic of David Brandon along the lines of Brian Cook and most of his readership. And Brian and Seth seem completely sanguine to Ramzy's singular offense of having repeatedly called Brendan Gibbons (never convicted, tried or charged with Criminal Sexual Conduct) a "rapist," repeatedly, in print.
Remember the attitudes of the MGoBoard when as Michigan's AD, Brandon wrote a few (choice; I loved them) email responses to "fans" who flamed him with emails? Brandon's responses were positively Victorian, compared to Ramzy's insane public freakout aimed at me on their site. "Michigan's shitstain helmets," "dumbfuck sandwiches," erect half-inch penis..."
I have a modest level of interest and curiosity about things Ramzy Nasrallah writes. "Respect" is out of the question.
I say again; I had trouble with one and only one person at 11W. That one person was Ramzy Nasrallah.
February 20th, 2018 at 2:44 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 6:27 PM ^
Smh
February 20th, 2018 at 7:29 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 1:09 PM ^
But their kool aid?? Come on, be better than that!!
GO BLUE!!
February 20th, 2018 at 1:13 PM ^
I think it is a curious thing, the relatively generous amount of fandom that Ramzy Nasrallah gets here. On one level, it is true that he is appealling to many of the same social/generational constructs and prejudices that dominate the MGoBoard membership.
And let's be real; Ramzy has an MGoBoard membership, and he is socially/professionally friendly with Brian and Seth.
But most of you must not be reading him all the time, if you take him so seriously.
Behold; from earlier this month. Ramzy himself enters the fray if you read down far enough:
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/11w-scorched-earth-nassar-headline#comment-4904573
February 20th, 2018 at 1:26 PM ^
We think it's our "birthright" to have control of this rivalry and own them because of our overall series lead. The few times we actually do beat rivals like MSU and OSU in football, one of the first comments I usually see on here is "Order Restored". But no one is entitled to anything in any rivalry though in college athletics, because future results are never set in stone. And by the way, if we don't begin to change things soon, that false birthright we're so accustom to (overall series lead) will be taken away from us too in about a decade
February 20th, 2018 at 1:47 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 1:30 PM ^
I think part of the frustration (among many, many other things) is that Michigan has endured hard times for nearly a decade, and OSU hasn't had consistent tough times since....what...before Woody showed up? I know Cooper brought them a lot of misery with regards to the Michigan game, but he still won a lot. He still had great teams that made the Rose Bowl and competed for titles.
Most every program cycles through bad years at some point or another. Michigan, Texas, USC, ND, Alabama, Georgia, Clemson, FSU, Florida, Miami, Nebraska, almost everyone. All of them have had stretches of bad years, and some even have them right now. Alabama was garbage for a few years before Saban showed up. But for OSU, the good times have kept on rolling for years and don't appear to be stopping anytime soon. Everyone is waiting for the pendulum to finally swing back the other way after 50 years and it's just not happening. Meanwhile, Michigan bumbles its way through one season after another, always looking up at its rival.
Sadly this rivalry is irrelevant right now. Even many OSU fans (especially your millenial OSU fans who grew up only knowing OSU dominance over Michigan) don't think of this as a rivalry anymore. Their own recruits are saying it's not a rivalry anymore. It's hard for me to blame them because I know I'd be saying the exact same thing if I were in their place.
You want to get your respect back as a program? Get big time recruits? Compete for titles? Shut up the Jim Romes and Paul Finebaums of the world? Then beat OSU. That is all you can do. Because I can guarantee you that if you want ANY of this back, that road goes right through Columbus.
February 20th, 2018 at 2:03 PM ^
They are beating us because they are better.
Indiana has come close to beating us numerous times, but we always pull it out . . . because at the end of the day we are better.
We do we expect? We are not better than Ohio State, and our scheme does nothing to help us overcome that. if anything, it makes it worse.
Like Indiana, we've been close a bunch of times, but the better team always pulls away when it needs to.
Because the gap is still too big.
February 20th, 2018 at 3:22 PM ^
But were they actually better in 2000? 2004? 2007? 2012? 2016?
February 20th, 2018 at 3:39 PM ^
No (we also lost in 2000), no, definitely yes, definitely yes, no.
February 20th, 2018 at 4:23 PM ^
How could you make that list & leave off '06?
February 20th, 2018 at 1:34 PM ^
Couldn't you have just thought this quietly to yourself?
February 20th, 2018 at 2:04 PM ^
We were beating Ohio State in the 80s and 90s when we had superior QB play.
They were trotting out Stanley Jackson and Steve Bellisari while we were trotting out a steady stream of future NFL QBs.
When was the last time we went into the Ohio State game with an objectively better, experienced, non-injured QB?
Navarre in 2003 and Denard in 2011 (both wins) are the ones that stand out.
Henne was close in '05/'06 (both very close games), non-broken Gardner in '13 was probably close.
But it's been slim pickings for 15 years, and the results show it.
Until we fix that, we can't even begin to talk about turning things around.
Harbaugh has the QB talent on the roster to do it . . . we'll see if he can match it to an effective scheme.
February 20th, 2018 at 5:29 PM ^
I understand the OL pass protection (with the emphasis on protecting the QB) was bad this year, but I really think people are ignoring the OSU game.
With a superior QB we would have blown OSU out (by at least 21 points).
With an average B1G QB we win, easily.
With an average Div-1 QB with probably win.
It's the QB. The QB. The QB ... that has held us back the last two years :-(
February 20th, 2018 at 8:56 PM ^
Look at the film. How many sacks came more than 3 seconds after the drop back? Most. There were breakdowns & blown assignments that happened but those always will. When you have 3 seconds you have to make it happen. The difference between a HS qb & next level is that HS QBs look for the open man, CFB QBs see from defensive position who has leverage and throw the man open. Henne was the last one to do that at M(Ruddock for 1/2 season as well).
February 21st, 2018 at 2:35 AM ^
Agreed!
Too much whining about protection when QBs are taking 4, 5, 6 seconds to throw.
Michigan needs elite QBs to consistently win big games. Elite passers can use their eyes to move defenders; then with a quick release that doesn't permit defenders to make a play on the ball, throw a good receiver open...and not take a sack on 1st or 2nd down.
Most Michigan QBs of the last decade or two have been unable to manage to do those things consistently.
February 20th, 2018 at 1:37 PM ^
Not enough bleach under the sink to tempt me to dwell on this kind of thing right now, sorry.
February 20th, 2018 at 1:51 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^
"keeping him around for as long as he wants to be around seems like what's best for UM" - Not sure I agree with that. Obviously, performance is going to matter. That being said, folks saying that he could be on the hot seat next year are, I think, pretty fair off base. Unless there are significant and deep issues beyond the record on the field.
February 20th, 2018 at 1:55 PM ^
What is annoying as hell is that this is all self-inflicted. There is nothing structural holding us back.
We are already there on defense.
On offense there is nothing stopping us from doing what Penn State did . . . shift from an anemic pro-style offense featuring a shell-shocked QB behind a leaky OL, to an effective college offense.
James Frankilin is no genius, yet he's sitting on a Big Ten championship and a rising program that was recently on its death bed.
Because he had enough sense to do what we did on defense . . . bring in a top college coordinator and get out of the way.
We are behind Ohio State, and we're in danger of being passed by Penn State. There is no way in hell that needs to be happening.
February 20th, 2018 at 3:31 PM ^
I agree with EVERYTHING you said, except HOW TO EXPLAIN JH SUCCESS AT STANFORD and Stanford's continuing success since?
They're still using his offense, haven't changed 1 significant thing about it.
So WHY are we struggling?
Calling Space Coyote....!
February 20th, 2018 at 5:53 PM ^
Why should Stanford be our goal-state?
They have not had a sniff at the CFP, and won't any time in the foreseeable future.
They would be a middle of the pack Big Ten East team, just like we are now.
February 20th, 2018 at 6:04 PM ^
February 21st, 2018 at 2:38 AM ^
I don't think anybody is saying Stanford should be "our goal-state". I think we were expecting that Stanford would be our floor.
February 21st, 2018 at 1:21 AM ^
The answer, at least for me, was posted a few days ago. The Pac-12 defenses are not as good as Big Ten defenses, especially against the run. Leaving aside JH's NFL-caliber QB for a second, his sytem worked, because P12 defenses weren't built to stop it. Look at the top-flight defenses we face....OSU, MSU, PSU, Wisconsin, all built to stop the run first. Further, we have had to be even more run-heavy due to a lack of quarterback competency - and, no, Speight was never competent at the level we needed him to be compete with the above. So we are running an offense that our rivals are built to stop.
Innovation is what's needed, not re-tread NFL washouts and unwanted college castoffs, only brought in because they run JH's system -- and make no mistake, that's why they're here. We are a "system", little different that Hoke's "manball rawr" outfits, but with marginally better offensive recruiting. Marginally at best, since OL recruiting has been seemingly left to coaches who kinda suck at recruiting and who are further fighting an uphill battle due to record, focus on academics, etc.
On defense, we brought in a young (-ish) fire-pisser to go with one of the best veteran D coaches around, and then surrounded him with other clearly talented coaches. On O, it's JH's system and that's that. Coaches are kept or brought in to run it. And in the B10, the system just ain't gonna work as run-heavy as it is, because that plays into our rivals' strengths.
Right now, M is a story of two philosophies.
February 20th, 2018 at 5:31 PM ^
We just need an average B1G OL (in run blocking AND pass pro) and an average B1G QB and without ANY other improvements we would challenge for the B1G championship every year.
JH has brought us so far. The final steps may be the hardest, but we are close (not soooo close, but close).
February 20th, 2018 at 2:03 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 2:32 PM ^
I'll say it again. Michigan is not a top tier football program anymore. They need to play like the underdogs because they are and because it's a better attitude to have when it comes to performance. As much as I hate disrespekt, it works. If the team and higher ups in the program embraced where the program actually is then we'd likey be a bit more creative and think of ways to get a competitive advantage and build an identity and culture. We dont do this because they think "This is Michigan!" is enough and we can just rely on our name and the success will follow. Michigan Football has a culture problem. Beilein's teams have an identity, play a certain style and it has worked. Football must do the same and I'm doubting Harbaugh can achieve this.
February 20th, 2018 at 2:49 PM ^
Identity? Why does everyone keeps saying this like we need identity to win championships. First of all our identity is simple: PRO Style offense with a bad ass defense. Thats our identity and has been as far back as i can remember (remove RR years). The defense is there unfortunatly the offense hasnt been good for years now. Which leads me to my next point, that you dont need these “identity”. You play to win games. Look at osu, bama, fsu, msu and more who are constantly tweaking their offenses to WIN games.
The problem with the football program is non of these stuff (identity, leadership or culture). The problem is luck. There has been nothing but bad luck for this program since 2008 and we cant seem to find our way out. We have one of the best coaching stuff with great recruits and we are still nit catching a break. Multiple 5* busts, we had to play our 3rd string QB last year, injuries which have put our best players out for the season. I mean this to me shows the program just cant catch a break.
February 20th, 2018 at 3:15 PM ^
We tried Rich Rod who was successful before MI. We tried Hoke who was successful before MI. We tried Harbaugh who the jury is still out on, but is not showing the progression he had prior to MI. What is the once constant during all these differing styles and philosophies? The culture and attitude. Good teams don't need as much luck to have consistent success. MSU and Wisconsin recruits 18 3 stars every year and best us regularly now. You could bring Saban to Michigan and have the #1 recruiting class 5 years in a row and we'd probably still have "bad luck" until we change the attitude around the program. Internal attitude drives your otward action. I'm a koala who read some stuff on the internet and has strong feelings so you know my take on this is ironclad. dont even argue bro.
February 20th, 2018 at 11:06 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 3:36 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 3:54 PM ^
This is an interesting perspective. I do not believe I agree with it.
Bo is gone, but he should always be celebrated. That we now have a connection to him in some way is helpful, not the other way around.
I saw every game Bo ever coached, and went to more than I'd feel comfortable admitting to, because some people just do not understand the call of college football.
JH may be our next Bo. He may not be. In either case, what we need is the next Bo, not concern about cutting ties with the previous one. He was/is a legend, and we need another one. We had fallen so far that people do not take us seriously any more.
If I were you, I would not bet the mortgage payment against Harbaugh.
February 20th, 2018 at 4:48 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 6:12 PM ^
I hear you, and I respect yours as well.
February 20th, 2018 at 4:06 PM ^
"Football will be a struggle until we can hire a coach and let him develop a culture and program that is their own."
You're done with Harbaugh?
I'm not there. After two major coaching changes and their assorted costs, I'm very comfortable staying the course with a guy with a long track record of success. Maybe it won't work out. However, I can almost guarantee pulling the trigger on a new coach (and a new one after that) will just spiral us downward.
February 20th, 2018 at 4:35 PM ^
February 20th, 2018 at 4:12 PM ^
Coach B had just taken a team of Pittsnoggles to the E8 I believe? I for one "expected" something of him!
And, Yeah you do sound like a jerk a bit. My fear is what you mean by "develop a culture" is start doing things the way the $EC/osu do.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, and list all the "clean" coaches that have been to the CFP? Swoops/Riley maybe? And they're "student athletes" leave a bit to be desired oft times...