Radish Talk Comment Count

Brian

10/28/2017 – Michigan 35, Rutgers 14 – 6-2, 3-2 Big Ten

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LET RAIN MAN BALL [Marc-Gregor Campredon]

Arizona quarterback Khalil Tate is doing this:

Arizona is ranked for the first time in a minute after four straight Pac-12 wins. Tate watched Arizona's first four games from the sideline. Last year he completed 40% of his 45 passes and rushed for under 5 yards a carry.

A bit further north in that same conference, Stanford barely escaped an awful Oregon State team as QB Keller Chryst averaged 4.3 yards an attempt. Sophomore KJ Costello played the vast majority of previous high-scoring wins over UCLA and Arizona State. Twitter was rife with bitching about Chryst and stupefaction at what it would take for Costello to enter the game as the Cardinal labored towards a win over the 1-7 Beavers. You may remember that Michigan's first choice at QB two years ago was Costello; it was only after he committed to Stanford that Michigan started looking around.

A bit further south in that same conference, Sam Darnold watched USC start 1-2 under Max Browne last year before emerging as a 67%, 3000-yard, 31-9 TD-INT flamethrower and Rose Bowl winner.

A bit closer to home, Michigan State quarterback Brian Lewerke spent most of the 2016 season watching Tyler O'Connor bork it before getting a chance midway through the year. A few years back MSU also spent a brief, wonderful period as the worst offense on the planet under Andrew Maxwell before pulling the trigger on the Connor Cook era. Wisconsin left Alex Hornibrook, the conference's #2 QB by passer rating, on the bench early last year, and then benched him for their final two games.

Nobody knows! Even coaches. Coaches think things. They have the limited amount of data that practice provides, and then there is game data, and all of this information pales in comparison to a giant, looming Fear Of The Unknown. Some decisions make themselves; others have to wait until there's literally no way a second-year player is worse.

There is a moment when even if the backup sometimes seems like a semi-sentient radish in a human suit, he's the man, man. Welcome to that moment.

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John O'Korn's struggles after Purdue sent the Michigan internet down a fairly appalling rabbit hole of speculation about Brandon Peters. "Promising young player stuck on bench for bad reasons" is such a trope that everyone knows the name of an otherwise obscure baseball player who Lou Gehrig replaced: Wally Pipp. The hundred-year persistence of this pattern was not good enough.

Nor were a plethora of recent examples at Michigan itself: Mike Hart behind David Underwood. Ben Gedeon behind Joe Bolden. Heck, even this very year Michigan went with Nolan Ulizio despite the fact Juwann Bushell-Beatty is older and apparently better. Sometimes the wrong guy is playing.

None of this mattered. O'Korn was bad so something had to be wrong with his backup.

So the last few weeks you couldn't throw a rock on a Michigan message board without hitting someone either implying or directly stating that Peters was a weird aspie with a fidget spinner and no future, Rain Man in a helmet. It's one thing when this comes from anonymous insider wannabes and entirely another when Rivals's Chris Balas calls a redshirt freshman a "big recruiting mistake" and says he "wouldn't be surprised" if Peters transferred.

Gasoline on the whisper fire, based on nothing. And this the second time Rivals has fueled baseless Peters transfer rumors that had to be debunked. The first time it was by Peters's father. This time Peters did it himself.

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easy [Campredon]

It turns out Brandon Peters is at least as plausible a second-year quarterback as anyone else suspected of being a sentient radish. Never in the history of Michigan Stadium has a soft toss in the flat or a fullback checkdown been met with more rapture, because everyone was worried that there was a good reason Peters was behind O'Korn, and that meant doom both now and later. Rutgers guys were annoyed at it, for some reason:

"It seemed like the crowd was kind of obnoxiously cheering," Rutgers redshirt senior Dorian Miller said with a smile. "(Peters) completed a 10-yard ball and the crowd belted out. Football is football, so I'm sure you could apply that to any team and the fans would respond like that. It's not a knock on them."

Just when folks who haven't seen Peters in action started wondering if this guy's arm strength was substandard, Peters stepped up in the pocket and ripped a laser at a receiver just in front of a safety. The ball got in a half second before the safety arrived, and the absurdity of the whisper campaign really settled in.

Brandon Peters is a quarterback in 2017, which means he was scouted to death in high school. And the thing that really leapt out to both Ace and I was that slow build to a ripping throw. Peters has the natural ability to vary his throws so they're catchable when they can be and darts when they have to be. That featured in his recruiting profile:

He varies trajectory and speed based on the situation. My favorite throws in the Brownsburg game above are two high-arc, low speed passes to his tight end that are the exact right throws in those situations. That's the definition of a "catchable ball."

Peters seemed like a savant, especially in the aftermath of Shane Morris's approach to the game. He had no QB guru, like most quarterbacks do these days. He ripped through high school football. This wasn't a guy completing half his passes who might be moldable into a guy down the road. Personality issues didn't prevent Peters from impressing the entire recruiting industry and flying up rankings after a senior year ending at the Army game.

So what are we doing when we search for some personality flaw when a second year player can't get into the game just yet? Why is a mountain of evidence from across college football not enough? And so what if the dude is more engineer than prom king?

Even if Brandon Peters isn't George Clooney—and I'm not saying he is or is not—has anyone actually seen Rain Man? Placed in his element, Rain Man is a baller.

HIGHLIGHTS

AWARDS

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this guy's mustache got an HM [Barron]

Known Friends And Trusted Agents Of The Week

-2535ac8789d1b499[1]you're the man now, dog

#1 Rashan Gary. Gary was rampant, consistently blowing around the corner to sack and/or terrify the quarterback. The Rutgers LT gets some NFL hype; Gary, and Chase Winovich to a slightly less rampant extent, made that guy look like a walk-on.

#2(t) Mason Cole and Mike Onwenu. Cole and Onwenu tentatively seemed like Michigan's most mauling OL on a rewatch, but probably I could have given this to any member of the blocking crew and not been particularly off.

#3 Sean McKeon. McKeon was able to dig out a throw low and behind him to convert a third and long; he was the only guy to pull in multiple passes. He probably would have scored on that fourth down if Peters put it on him. In addition, McKeon's blocking was excellent for a second consecutive week.

Honorable mention: That guy's mustache. Poggi, Hill, Kugler, JBB, and Bredeson all chipped in on a dominating ground game. Isaac and Higdon made the most out of the blocking. Winovich, Hurst, and Bush were all their usual selves.

KFaTAotW Standings.

8: Devin Bush (#1 Florida, T2 Cincinnati, T2 Air Force, #1 Purdue)
5: Chase Winovich(#1 Air Force, #2a Purdue), Mo Hurst (#1 MSU, #2(T), Indiana), Karan Higdon (#1 Indiana, #2 PSU), Rashan Gary(T2 Indiana, #1 Rutgers), Mason Cole (#1 Cincinnati, T2 Rutgers).
4: David Long (T3 Indiana, #1 PSU)
3: Ty Isaac (#2, Florida, #3 Cincinnati), Lavert Hill(#2 MSU, T3 Indiana))
2: Quinn Nordin (#3 Florida, #3 Air Force), John O'Korn (#2 Purdue), Khaleke Hudson (T2 Cincinnati, #3 PSU), Sean McKeon(T3 Purdue, #3 Rutgers), Mike Onwenu(T2 Rutgers).
1: Tyree Kinnel (T2 Cincinnati), Mike McCray(T2 Air Force), Zach Gentry (T3 Purdue), Brad Robbins(#3 MSU), Brandon Watson (T3 Indiana).

Who's Got It Better Than Us Of The Week

Brandon Peters completes a short waggle pass to Ty Wheatley for a first down.

Honorable mention: Peters completes another soft toss to Poggi on his next opportunity. Higdon breaks free for a game-sealing long touchdown. Kareem Walker scores. Various annihilations of the Rutgers quarterback. Various annihilations of the Rutgers front seven.

imageMARCUS HALL EPIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEK.

Michigan misses a run fit against a wildcat formation, ceding a long touchdown that tied the score at 7. At the time it felt like that was the start of a very long day indeed. Also long wildcat touchdowns remind me of the Penn State game.

Honorable mention: O'Korn throws a pick in the direction of Gentry when he's covered by a 5'9" guy; O'Korn fumbles the snap and Michigan eats a 14 yard loss; Rutgers uses the same damn screen play MSU scored on to get down to the two.

[After the JUMP: hamblasting the hamblasted]

OFFENSE

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Higdon checking the board to see if he's got a trailer [Campredon]

A hamblasting. Rutgers's rush defense has a pulse this year. They've held most opponents under the national average of 5.1 sack-adjusted YPC, with one notable exception and one weird one:

  • Washington: 4.3 YPC
  • EMU: 3.8 YPC
  • OSU: 8.6 YPC
  • Nebraska: 4.5 YPC
  • Illinois: 3.5 YPC
  • Purdue: 6.8 YPC

It's not great but neither is it last year's 95th-ranked outfit. So Michigan putting it on these guys is legitimately encouraging, especially given the context. Michigan had 13 yards passing a third of the way through the game when O'Korn was replaced and ran almost three-quarters of the time even when Peters was in.

To average 7.6 YPC* given the above helps redeem all the stuff I've been saying the past few weeks about the run blocking's improvement. There were far fewer One Guy plays, and many of the Zero Guy plays featured Michigan blockers hammering their opposition. On a rewatch of the game I saw McKeon, Onwenu, Cole, JBB, Bredeson, Mason, Hill, and Wheatley all rack up dominating blocks that'll probably end up being +2s in UFR. There are probably some others lurking out there as well.

A game against Rutgers isn't proof of anything but I do think Michigan's been building to this and should continue on more in this vein than the rough first half of the season. Michigan has two more weeks of iffy run defenses remaining before the stretch double-header against Wisconsin and Ohio State. Prior to this weekend Minnesota and Maryland were 89th and 50th, respectively, in S&P+ rush defense. If Michigan can approach what they did in this game the next two weeks you could maybe have some optimism heading into Madison.

*[FWIW: I deleted two John O'Korn fumbles, one Brandon Peters broken play, and the three O'Maury Samuels rushes behind the backup OL from the official box score to arrive at this number. I'm pretty sure those also won't make the S&P+ box score numbers since those omit garbage time and sacks and sack-type substances.]

New items. Michigan debuted a couple of run plays that befuddled Rutgers, including a few runs that superficially looked like power but were designed to cut back into the gap that the "pulling" guard had vacated. There was also an odd play on which the backside tackle pulled and buried himself in the line on which the POA was off tackle the other way.

Michigan managed to keep Rutgers off balance with a bunch of key-breaking reads, and I was maybe going to fuss up about how they did all this against Rutgers against Penn State before remembering that Michigan's ground game was set up for success there, too, except for One Guy.

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wheel route remains undefeated [Campredon]

Preseason hype: redeemed! It only took seven games but heyyyyyy someone else got to be Mike McCray versus a wheel route. Chris Evans's touchdown looked fairly easy, as wheel routes by super quick running backs against linebackers are wont to. Evans brings sufficient run chops to not be a tip when he enters, so an expanded role for him in the passing game should remain efficient even if and when Michigan puts it on film. Let's keep doing that, it looked real good.

McKeon arrives. This is the second consecutive game in which Sean McKeon's blocking was a clear positive. I'm still slightly skeptical this will last since McKeon isn't the kind of burly terror that Wheatley promises to be, but the thing I'm skeptical of is "Sean McKeon will continue paving the opposition flat."

He's established himself as a good blocker, and his receiving chops—while still in the low sample size realm—are also likely to be a B or B+ or worse. PFF details:

McKeon's 83.0 grade was tops on the team at the tight end spot and he continues to pace the other players at the position in the run block category (82.2) was nearly in the "elite" category. Zach Gentry is the other tight end who is seeing a ton of snaps (McKeon 34, Gentry 36), with McKeon consistently looking like the top all-around player at the position this year.

McKeon is a redshirt freshman out of who-dat ball in New England. Jim Harbaugh could take a broken toaster at tight end and I'd be like "this is probably fine." Luke Schoonmaker, who's a quarterback in Massachusetts? I'm in.

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Peters set up fullback YAC [Campredon]

Assets and liabilities. Peters went 10/14. The four incompletions:

  • Throws a fade at DPJ out of bounds on a questionable read; DPJ was already in the sideline, more or less, and Gentry was breaking open elsewhere.
  • Near-INT immediately before the Evans wheel route. Peters has Perry open on a slant on a three step drop but hesitates a beat; if that's in rhythm it's a completion.
  • Slightly overthrows Wheatley on a deep crossing route; Wheatley has a shot but it's high and hard and goes through his hands.
  • Fourth down pass to McKeon that's well short.

In addition there were two running plays on which things looked goofy. On one Peters failed to make a handoff and just slid to the ground near the LOS; on the second he did successful get the ball to Evans but it was a near thing.

Against those negatives: 8.6 yards an attempt with a long of just 20 and a lot of successful handoffs. Like the run game it's not proof of anything but it's a solid start.

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also easy [Barron]

Walker scores. Kareem Walker looked like a pretty tough out on his half-dozen carries, except for the one pictured above where he ripped into t the endzone untouched. The team's reaction to this was touching. Walker was very publicly on the edge of transferring because of early academic issues, and the team went nuts in response to his first touchdown. He's clearly a popular guy who everyone is glad to have around.

Collins contributed. It was just a hitch but he's playing and targeted so sure let's run him out there. At this juncture the next three years is way more important than a hypothetical fourth for the WR corps. Strange that of all the receivers the one guy who appears headed for a voluntary redshirt is Oliver Martin.

DEFENSE

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poor damn Insert Quarterback Here [Barron]

Back to the usual. Michigan once again had a tense fourth quarter drive were they were trying to keep the opposition under 200 yards. They succeeded.

This performance wasn't quite to the previous standard, as Michigan only faced 10 Rutgers drives instead of the 14 or 15 previous (non-PSU) games had required to get across the finish line. Nor did any of the Rutgers points come on a short field; the Cable Subscribers' best field position was their own 31.

It was still more or less what you'd expect an elite defense to do against a very bad offense, give or take a big ol' bust. That bust came on the long Janarion Grant touchdown, which was a wildcat play on which Kinnel started booking for the outside as Hudson close it off; I haven't taken a detailed look yet but I am a bit cheesed off at Kinnel's starting position against a wildcat. Sliding him down into the 8-10 yard range changes the complexion of that play dramatically, and should be a relatively easy adjustment.

Other than that it was a parade of three-and-outs leavened by the occasional first down, and one legitimate, 11-play, 75-yard touchdown drive. Kinnel featured there too, but in a freshman Jourdan Lewis fashion: he was in excellent coverage and removed one of the WRs hands from the equation; it was just his luck that that dude only needed the one available.

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poor damn Insert Wildcat Quarterback Here [Barron]

Solomon emerging. Freshman Aubrey Solomon got a majority of Michigan's bonus DT snaps in this game, somewhat supplanting Bryan Mone. 247 is now utilizing PFF data—I hope this clears up that situation, BTW—and had him for 30 snaps in which he did well:

Solomon scored out at a 81.4 on Saturday. This was a season high for him and was also sixth overall on the defense and fourth on the defensive line as the Wolverines dominated up front.

That was almost triple his previous high of 11 snaps.

Mone had a bit of a rough go against Penn State and Solomon offers a lot more upside against anything except short yardage. There's not a ton of separation in their play right now and he's obviously going to improve more quickly as a true freshman.

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a fan favorite [Barron]

Jump up and down. Mike Dwumfour picked up a late sack and hoo boy Rashan Gary, his childhood friend, and Mo Hurst, his mentor, were excited. I glanced over to the sideline and both those guys were way too far off the ground for gentlemen of their size.

The perfect cornerback game. Tackles between Hill, Watson, and Long: zero. They do not show in the box score at all. When they do show up on the field PFF has Hill performing at an All-American level:

With Hill, he's currently mislabeled as a safety, but his 89.4 season grade would be good for 7th in the country at the cornerback position and his 92.4 cover grade would be good for fifth. It's funny to look back at the worries regarding the cornerback spot during the spring and summer knowing now it's another strength of this team, led by Hill.

Mike Zordich should say more things are bad and watch them magically become not bad at all.

SPECIAL TEAMS

Got away with one. Janarion Grant was an ankle tackle away from a monster kickoff return, as James "Doug" Foug did not quite warrant a fake Dean Koontz novel title in this one.

Merph. Quinn Nordin missed a 37-yarder, which followed on from a missed XP last week. Allen Trieu is reporting that Nordin is injured and might miss some time coming up, which is Not Great. At least Michigan's backups here showed well in spring. 70 yarders are probably out of their reckoning.

MISCELLANEOUS

So there were some guys hangin' around. Patrick got some environment shots that are rather doozies. Meet Khalid Hill's immediate family:

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[Campredon]

And these guys with their uncanny Harbaugh impressions:

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[Barron]

And drum major Kevin Zhang:

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[Barron]

I COUNTED. Between 1:03 left in the third quarter and 5:46 left in the fourth quarter there were SIX commercial breaks. SIX. More than one per every two minutes of game time. At one point there was a timeout before a Michigan drive, during it, and after it.

Where was the halftime show? Y'all can celebrate the 200th anniversary of Michigan's founding next week against Minnesota. At homecoming, if I don't get War Chant and Temptation baby gets into rattle-throwing mode. At least there were a bunch of awesome old guys.

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[Barron]

But seriously War Chant/Temptation are not optional.

HERE

Best and Worst:

Worst: Pumping the Brakes...Again

I'm going to crib a lot of my earlier comments when it came to O'Korn's great performance against Purdue and how, well, everybody should maybe take a step back before proclaiming it a repeatable performance. Against Purdue I noted:

And let it be noted that Purdue had, by far, the worst defense Michigan has played this year. Coming into the game, they had a defensive efficiency of 60th; Florida was 42nd, Cincy 29th, and Air Force at 21, and in the case of Florida, that number is a bit depressed because they had only played 2 teams (Michigan and Tennessee). Last year, Purdue's defense was ranked well into the 100's in both fancy stats and raw defensive numbers. It is not a good defense, even if they are more aggressive and (I'm assuming) getting coached up by whatever screaming ball of blood vessels and sunburn that was tromping along that sideline...This is a long-winded way of saying that some of Michigan's improvements offensively are opponent-dependent.

Well, Rutgers and Purdue are ranked 33rd and 34th, respectively, in defensive S&P ratings at the time I wrote this diary. Both are inexplicably decent at stopping the pass despite having sack rates in the 100s, and both are middling in terms of creating turnovers. But, and this is so weird to say when talking about either of these clubs, they are both competent enough against the pass that you can't totally discount both O'Korn's and Peters's performances against them out of hand. Given the context, both of them played very well against defenses that weren't the 2016 vintage we all expected. At the same time, I'd argue that neither opponent probably spent much time preparing for either guy at QB, and at least Minnesota has a frisky enough defense that Peters will be tested by a unit capable of game planning for him. Still, this is slightly more encouraging than I expected.

Wolverines in Japan. Fan satisfaction index.

ELSEWHERE

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[Barron]

Peters post game via Sam:

It has long been the opinion of many that follow the program closely (myself included) that Peters is the most talented quarterback on Michigan’s roster. No other Maize & Blue signal caller possesses his combination of size, mobility, and arm strength. But the best talent doesn’t always equate to the most ready. That was the case for Peters who Jim Harbaugh said needed to improve his “command.”

I’ve come (a long way) since camp,” said Peters. “As far as communication goes to the O-line to all the players on the team. The biggest step I made was my communication so far.”

“I’ve definitely gotten a lot better at it,” he later added. “That’s something I’ve really focused on. It’s been my weakness ever since I’ve gotten to Michigan. I’ve really focused on it. And it makes a big difference for sure.”

Peters has a quiet, unassuming way. Those that don’t know him often mistake his temperament for stoicism for aloofness. Those that do know him know he is nothing if not a competitor. His teammates have taken note of that. They’ve witnessed the significant growth in his command of the playbook and his communication on the field.

“Brandon is a quiet guy, but as you (saw) today, once he gets going he starts talking,” Rashan Gary said. “He was like, can you get me back the ball?! When we were all about to go out on defense…’can I get the ball back?’ Once he got in his groove everybody was like, ‘alright BP, let’s go!’”

“From spring ball to now it’s two completely different quarterbacks,” Gary later added. “You see it in practice. He is talking more (and) checking down more. It’s crazy to see. (From) not seeing that too much in spring ball to now checking things down and making good passes. It’s unbelievable.”

It’s pretty clear that the recent rumors of Peters being a malcontent, the recurring rumors about him being a likely transfer, and the talk that he had already been passed up by freshman Dylan McCaffrey were all unfair and unfounded. (A topic which we focused on a few weeks ago). It appears that many fans were willing to believe those things because they found those explanations more palatable than the one being offered by Jim Harbaugh.

Long excerpt because I think it's important to get this across. Stop talking personal shit about someone you don't know, especially if you purport to be a journalist.

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more mashing [Barron]

Baumgardner:

U-M, by my unofficial count, created 210 yards for its ball carriers (and that includes John O'Korn's two lost fumbles) before contact Saturday, good for an average of 4.2 yards before contact per rushing attempt.

It's as simple as it sounds: On average, Michigan's backs were rushing four yards before getting hit Saturday. Karan Higdon, Ty Isaac, Kareem Walker and Chris Evans all did a fine job of finishing their runs and hitting proper cut lanes. But the offensive line was the star of the day.

Also on Peters. Brad Hawkins is now a viper. Speight's father says there's a "good chance" he can return this year. Maize N Brew. Maize and Blue Nation. MGoFish.

HSR:

Homecoming is an odd duck when you attend football games on the regular with your college roommate is that it should feel like a chance to be nostalgic, but, I mean, literally, I'm sitting with the same person I sat with for four years of games as a student.  We have all the same in-jokes, all the same reference points, and so on.  It's not a blast from the past, it's Season 21 of the same show (and like The Simpsons the first 11 seasons were much more fondly remembered by the masses.)

Sap:

DEFENSIVE CHAMPION – We all know that Maurice Hurst is a beast up front and his quickness is amazing, so…should we start talking about #73 as the best player in country? I know he just ate an under-manned Rutgers O-Line for lunch (Get in my Belly!), but this is not the first or second time Mo Hurst has been THE dominant player on the field. So, should Hurst get an invite to NYC come the first week of December? I think so!

Michigan opens –14.5 versus Minnesota.

Comments

Pimple Zoo

October 31st, 2017 at 11:51 AM ^

Brian is a very, very good writer (as are many of the contributors to this blog, which I enjoy immensely), but the usage of that term above was downright sophomoric, in my opinion.  The largely unfounded 'insider rumors' surrounding Michigan athletics can be maddening, certainly, but that's hardly a justification for punching down here. 

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 1:29 PM ^

but you can't really blame the insiders for wanting to give the clamoring fanbase an explanationf or why Peters wasn't playing.

And if Peters thrives and it turns out that Harbaugh & Co. made a calculated error, it is interesting to hear insights into what went into those calculations.

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 2:00 PM ^

would be ever having O'Korn as the #2 QB.

read stephenjrking's summary of the insider rumbling. basically, Peters got frustrated that he was placed third in the depth chart and lost his will to compete. Assuming that Peters doesn't have an O'Kornian fall-off (which I don't think is a huge assumption), then that decision was probably a mistake.

gbdub

October 30th, 2017 at 4:50 PM ^

So Harbaugh should have made the worse player the #2 to stroke his ego so he'd actually compete? That's not a mistake of Harbaugh's, that's a mistake by Peters that cost the team. If he had competed to his potential the whole time, maybe he gets to #2 by the time Speight goes down.

Or you know, maybe he's just a young player who is still learning, maturing, and improving rapidly, and now was the right time to play him, while Purdue was too early.

"Peters wasn't the second best QB on the team by the Purdue game" and "Peters is the best available QB on the team NOW" can both be true, without anyone making a mistake.

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 5:04 PM ^

Which is largely speculative, but is based off of the insider grumbling and rumors I heard from someone close to the program, is that Peters was never the worst QB.

He came in as a freshman very cocky and had some attitude/demeanor issues which Harbaugh didn’t like. So he was never the #3 QB by ability out of fall camp, he just hadn’t done enough to get out of Harbaugh’s doghouse.

gbdub

October 30th, 2017 at 5:39 PM ^

Coaches have "doghouses" for a reason. Would Braylon have ever been as good as he was without the Carr doghousing? His NFL career suggests probably not. Bad attitudes can be just as damaging to a team as bad talent. I suspect Harbaugh is a reasonable judge of the kind of attitude needed to succeed at football.

Of course this is all mostly baseless speculation impugning the character of a kid we want to be successful.

"Peters started the season not that good, but got better, and O'Korn looks worse than we thought, but he seemed like the best choice at the time" is a perfectly reasonable explanation that doesn't require labeling Harbaugh dumb or Peters an ass. Why the insistence on searching for some conspiratorial motive?

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 8:22 PM ^

I admit your counter argument for what transpired is perfectly plausible. I simply don’t think it is as accurate as what I laid out. I’m basing that off of 1) Peters floor was never as low as what we saw from O’Korn; 2) the insider info I’ve read and heard from friends. I could very well be wrong. But I still assert that I’m not calling Harbaugh bad, just saying he made a calculated decision that possibly backfired. Those happen. Look at the Lions thread and how everyone mocked Caldwell’s decision to go for it on 4th down. Caldwell knows infinitely more about football than any of us, but he still made a mistake. It happens.

TrueBlue2003

October 31st, 2017 at 1:55 AM ^

Even if you assume we would have beaten MSU (very likely/plausible) with Peters, he potentially has 3.5 more years starting here. Giving up a loss in a rebuilding year may very well be worth any lesson that may have been taught (and learned) in the long run.  Especially if that lesson applies to the whole team.  As Reader71 pointed out, everyone on a team needs to be held to the same standards in terms of focus and effort and you need to demand the same from your stars as everyone else or you can lose a team fairly quickly. 

gbdub

October 31st, 2017 at 10:09 AM ^

You have zero basis for that assertion other than two and a half quarters of good play against Rutgers. You have no idea if playing O’Korn for previous games was an error, because Peters’ hypothetical performance in those games is literally unknowable. The person with the best information to judge is.... Jim Harbaugh, and we know how he decided. That’s the only piece of solid evidence we, or anyone outside the program, has: Harbaugh thought O’Korn was the better choice until Saturday. That’s not a perfect metric, but history suggests it’s a lot better than chance, certainly better than tough guy hot takes on the inter webs. Hell at this point we have no idea if Peters’ performance is even sustainable. We all hope it is of course, but even if it is, that still doesn’t prove that Rutgers wasn’t the right time to bring him out. Maybe this was exactly the week he passed O’Korn. Without more evidence, you’re just bashing Harbaugh and/or Peters’ character for no reason.

jmblue

October 30th, 2017 at 4:02 PM ^

And if Peters thrives and it turns out that Harbaugh & Co. made a calculated error, it is interesting to hear insights into what went into those calculations.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Your backup QB is a guy who has to be ready at a moment's notice. Who do you want in that situation, a 5th-year senior with starting experience or a RS freshman?

If Speight's Purdue injury had not kept him out indefinitely, but merely knocked him out of that game, the decision to put O'Korn at #2 would seem vindicated - he came in and led us to victory on the road. It was the games that followed that make the decision questionable. But by that point, O'Korn had that one good performance in his back pocket, which probably earned him a mulligan for the MSU game. After IU, I suspect the staff probably was ready to test out Peters, but figured PSU wasn't the time.  So, Rutgers it was.

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 4:26 PM ^

if you replay the purdue game 10 times, how many times does O'Korn repeat that great performance? the data suggests not many times. imo, that was the coaching staff getting lucky.

if you replay the rutgers game 10 times, my assumption is that Peters plays at the same level damn near every time. We'll see if he backs up that assumption moving forward.

jmblue

October 30th, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^

Sure, I don't think O'Korn's likely to have another 10 YPA outing.

But if you're assuming Speight makes it through the season and that the backup might just need to come in for brief outings here and there, it could be tempting to go with the veteran, even if he isn't all that good, over the guy with no game experience at all.

 

 

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2017 at 1:29 PM ^

The issue I've heard on the board here with Peters, at least from the people who seem to have information, isn't that he has a bad attitude. It's that he got discouraged in preseason camp, wasn't digging into the playbook and meetings, and had taken a step back from the two guys ahead of him. And his lack of mastery of the offense was an issue.

What we saw Saturday was encouraging, because he made a number of accurate throws at the right moment to open receivers. He lucked out and didn't make the one big mistake, but sometimes luck happens. 

But his understanding of the offense is clearly pretty limited. Most of his throws were vanilla plays, and he had trouble knowing which way to hand off. He had to go to the sideline to get playcalls, and the extra time eliminates time other QBs spend at the line reading the defense to get the team into the right play. 

It's a serious limit, and a very plausible explanation of why he fell behind. Rumors suggesting an uptick in his workrate and extra time spent with Pep make sense, and help flesh out a picture of a young kid dealing with some headwinds, wavering (as guys this age including a number of us have been wont to do) and getting some stuff together.

I do expect that if he responds well to the opportunity, he'll pick stuff up. The wheel route to Evans, for example, was thrown well enough that the defender had no shot at it, but it was significantly behind the optimal spot--but more practice with his receivers will improve his ball placement quickly. Expanding the playbook and the reads will take more time, probably more than is really available the rest of this season. 

The team is going to wind up stuck with a bad playcall more often if he can't make changes at the line. It will be run dependent. He's going to make some baaaad plays. 

But the good news is that Peters at least has the potential to make a strike or two downfield to keep drives moving. And the OL is caving people on the ground. A conservative, run-heavy offense with a raw QB isn't going to terrify people, but if it can score 20-27 points a game it can win a lot with this defense. About the best we can hope for given that our QB situation this year is a disaster.

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2017 at 1:49 PM ^

Let's see, most of it is sprinkled into board threads. There's umbig11, obviously; there was also ghost of Jermaine posting in this thread with some very plausible stuff that has closely matched subsequent events. He claims to have firsthand knowledge. Of course he could be making it up, but so far is has passed the smell test.

 

Moleskyn

October 30th, 2017 at 2:10 PM ^

Yeah, I think umbig11 is pretty well-established by this point as being a credible insider source. I believe his credibiltiy has even been directly confirmed by leadership of this blog. Even if I'm mistaken on that, his nuggets of info have also been confirmed as things have become public knowledge.

As for Ghost of Jermaine, I am not sure he has the same level of credibility as umbig11. He has been making claims that would seem to indicate he has insider access, but I believe he's a bit newer to the scene and hasn't really had anything confirmed either by other people in the know, or by results revealed on the field.

stephenrjking

October 30th, 2017 at 2:59 PM ^

Yeah, I can't actually vouch for his cred. All I know is that the stuff he presented seemed credible (if salted with some editorializing) and fit the known facts both at the time he wrote them and the facts as they have emerged since. Smell test stuff. The scenario presented fit both the facts known to the public and a reasonable theory of the reasoning for why Peters dropped to third and hadn't yet gotten a good look.

Moleskyn

October 30th, 2017 at 2:06 PM ^

To me, the comments about him not having a firm grasp of the offense or playbook were backed up by a few observations:

  • Pre-snap machinations of the offense. I don't know what this is called, but the QB would regularly raise both arms up pre-snap, and that was apparently a signal to other players to move their alignment in the offense. O'Korn did this on almost every play, and every time he did it, players moved instantly and knew where to go. I saw at least two instances where Peters seemed to make the motion at the wrong (or inappropriate) time; in one instance, nobody moved when he made the motion, and he seemed a little confused. On the other, he made the motion and it took the players a moment to start moving into position. Again, I don't think this is a major thing, but I think it points to those "little details" that someone with a better command of the offense just gets.
  • The handoff exchanges to the wrong side. To me, this is more significant than the previous, as it could easily lead to a fumble or negative play. 
  • As mentioned in SJRK's comment, Peters having to get the play call from the sideline.

For anyone else, these things would be chalked up to "freshman mistakes", which I largely think they are. But they also back up the assertions we've seen around here of Peters missing the little details of the offense, and needing to put in more time. 

Despite these things, I am very excited to see him play, and I hope he plays the rest of the year and continues to improve. If UM can get at least average QB play the rest of the way, it appears that the ground game and defense will be able to keep us in it against just about everyone on the schedule.

MI Expat NY

October 30th, 2017 at 3:59 PM ^

Do we think any of that is at least somewhat a result of Michigan's heavily opponent-specific gameplanning and the resultant lack of prep for the backup?  There are only so many reps in a week, and if the play packages are changing significantly, have to imagine that limits the backup qb's preparation.  I know in the NFL, the backup gets almost no live reps and is expected to have everything down by watching.  Reasonable to expect that strategy wouldn't work so well for a second year college qb.  

Perhaps, knowing that Peters was going to play at least one series, they had a series scripted for him and he had that set of plays down pat, but didn't have the workload to have everything else for the week.  May explain why the first series was easily the smoothest.  

 

MinWhisky

October 30th, 2017 at 5:13 PM ^

If you had the best spring practice and game of any of the QBs, but found out you were ranked #3 , you'd be discouraged AND pissed.  Those feelings would be reinforced if you had to sit on the bench and watch Speight and JOK struggle during the season.  You'd begin to question JH's "meritocracy". 

In addition, as the #3, it was virtually impossible for Peters to gain a real "understanding of the offense".  He would have been very limited in the number of snaps he'd be able to take and that would be the main reason he'd be "pretty limited". 

If Peters does work out, and I hope he does, the person who should be second-guessed is JH.  He'll have fumbled the ball and maybe lost the entire season (see MSU) because he didn't get Peters ready early in the year.

outsidethebox

October 30th, 2017 at 8:36 PM ^

I see a lot of people spouting off all kinds of ridiculous scenarios-people who have clearly never been there and done that at any significant level. Where the hell are all of you coming from that you feel so free to spew all this crap out here...as though you have a clue??? Who cares if someone is an "insider"? The fact is that there are players and coaches who do not have the ability to (correctly) assess a matter such as this. Do they know what they are talking about???

Coaches make mistakes-at this level too...and very specifically in situations such as this. You have to be dumber that a load of bricks to not understand that there has been coaching error here. One can never know the extent of the error. The fact/truth is that Harbaugh gambled and likely lost...noone will ever know...it's water under the bridge.

But that is history. What is critical is the here and now-going forward. This is the difference between mediocre, good and great coaches...how do you proceed from here. Can you look in the mirror, swallow your pride and make better decisions.  And this group sure as hell better reconsider what their "meritocracy" means. 

I am new here. I do not have any alliances nor do I have any prejudices toward anyone...not that it matters because I am too old to give a damn about such things. I also do not know any history about Balas. But I will say that IMO he is BY FAR the best, along with Skene in assessing these sports issues. Hate him all you want...it appears y'all can't handle the truth anyway...but that's on you. Hate me...I do not care. 

 

robpollard

October 30th, 2017 at 1:36 PM ^

...than Brian stated, which was "Tate watched Arizona's first four games from the sideline."

That's actually not correct. He got plenty of run during the second game of this season when their original, experienced starter, Brandon Dawkins, was not playing well against Houston.
Tate came in to replace him and looked OK but essentially did what Dawkins did -- complete about half his passess, make a few nice runs (but nothing amazing), and threw a key interception to help end the game as a loss. He also got a bruised shoulder out of it, which along with his "ehh" play, kept him on the bench.

Then, three games later, Dawkins gets hurt very early in the game against Colorado on a late hit, and Tate comes in and starts his run of literally Heisman-level QB play. He's running by people like they are standing still, while also completing about 70% of his passes, frequently for huge chunks of yards and/or TDs.

It's astonishing.

markusr2007

October 30th, 2017 at 1:47 PM ^

Some other observations:

1.  Khalil Tate is just another one of those "lightning in a bottle" QBs for Riuch Rodriguez, like Shaun King, Woodrow Dantzler, Rasheed Marshall, Pat White and Denard Robinson.  I watched the WSU game and it was ridiculous. Tate is horrifying. It seems like opponents complete forget how to stop that stuff all over again.

2. Rodriguez still struggles with scoring defense, or any defense at all.  I don't understand his selecting Marcel Yates as his defensive coordinator.   Competent defense remains  Rodriguez's Achilles Heel and will always prevent his teams from achieving championship level greatness.

3. Of their 4 straight wins, only the WSU win this weekend was over a +.500 team, yet one of Rodriguez's most impressive wins of his tenure. But his Wildcats had give up 37 points and score 58 in order to pull it off.

4. I can't wait to see No. 17 USC shredded to ribbons in LA Coliseum by this kid.

newtopos

October 30th, 2017 at 2:35 PM ^

This article has some more info on his injury and the events leading up to his playing this year:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/21171679/behold-arizona…

His October was insane (he has already passed Saquon Barkley in rushing yards for the year, though he only started four games), and he was only 18 years old for three of the four games.  Try to watch him if you get a chance -- pretty amazing.

gbdub

October 30th, 2017 at 5:08 PM ^

Do the Wildcats have a running back? That always felt like the limitation of RR's Michigan offenses - without a Steve Slaton to match Denard's Pat White, good defenses could key on Denard and/or make sure his read was always "give", because the RB was a threat that quality defenses could always contain.

markusr2007

October 30th, 2017 at 1:36 PM ^

Gophers have the 23rd ranked passing defense, 36th ranked rushing defense and 21st ranked scoring defense.

Minnesota (4-4, 1-4) is going to be a far more challenging opponent than Rutgers in all aspects.

With the exception of Purdue, all of Minnesota's losses have been by 7 pts or less.

I don't trust them to lay down. So hopefully Michigan breaks their will early.

SalvatoreQuattro

October 30th, 2017 at 4:57 PM ^

Their defensive statistics are helped out a lot by playing three crappy treats. Granted, Buffalo has improved since then. But Middle Tennessee State did not have their starting QB and lost their best RB during the game. Minnesota’s defense is not bad. But it is not as good as it was under Claeys. They have taken a step back.

Ron Utah

October 30th, 2017 at 1:39 PM ^

While Peters looked like a RS freshman on the broken running play, near INT, and a few other moments, he also looked like a damn talented QB.  The playbook was very vanilla and he mostly had half-field or one-two reads, but it's hard not to be encouraged.  Can he be ready to upset OSU (and/or Wisconsin)?

The gameplan was, in many ways, a reversion to the Standford days: lots of pre-snap motion, tons of power and multiple pulling blocker plays, optional passes on many plays (must be decided pre-snap).  With JOK, we saw WR screens and lots of ideas on how to move the ball creatively.

We even saw an "easy" pass play--the wheel route to Evans.

Really loved the gameplan and playcalling.  Wish we had been running this scheme since day one.

taistreetsmyhero

October 30th, 2017 at 1:50 PM ^

have been shelved because the pass protection and QB play just couldn't cut it. Even if Peters pans out and is a significant step above O'Korn, he still may not be able to take in a whole new bunch of plays in the coming weeks.

But it will be interesting to see moving forward into next year if they try out all the 5 wide sets, complicated route schemes, etc. assuming that the growth of the OL continues and we have an average-at-worst QB at the helm next year.