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07/17/2018 - 6:53pm Less frequently, less time…

Less frequently, less time on the site.  Part of that is due to the fewer board posts, but I think that can be attributed, in part, to the new design as well.  

For example, I can fill my laptop screen with a single, one-word response (posted by one of our favorite posters) in this thread.  (I'm on a PC, and use Android on phone.)  I recognize that designing and implementing a website is very hard, that there was a ton of content to migrate, etc., but a message board with such a layout is significantly less enjoyable to read.  

05/02/2018 - 12:26am Moorehead's first year (and fourth game)

I hear what you are saying, but the 2016 PSU offense ended up in the top 20 in S&P+ Offense, and went on to hang 41 on Iowa, 45 on Michigan State, 38 on a top-ten Wisconsin, and 49 on a top-ten USC in the Rose Bowl.  We caught PSU in the fourth game of Moorehead's tenure.  The offense he implemented there was remarkable (and likely saved Franklin's job).  (PSU's offense in 2015 was ranked 62nd.)

05/02/2018 - 12:18am PSU's offense

It's not magic, it's recruiting.

PSU signed the nation's top receiver, a 5 star top-10 overall player.  PSU signed the number one ranked all-purpose back, a 5 star top-30 overall player.  They signed the nation's number 4 ranked TE.  They have the top running back (5 star) from the 2016 class.  They had a top 10 offense last year.  Ours was ranked 85th, and we retained Pep Hamilton.  The Shea transfer (and eligibility) was huge, and Moorehead leaving PSU is great, but the idea that their offense will fall off a cliff and ours will rise meteorically seems like wishful thinking.  (I hope it happens, but there are plenty of reasons for being cautious in optimism.)

05/01/2018 - 11:59pm PSU's advantages

Also, last year it was Moorehead vs. Pep Hamilton/Drevno (and McSorley vs. O'Korn).  McSorley actually rushed for 76 yards as well. 

We are fortunate that Moorehead moved on to be a head coach.    


05/01/2018 - 11:52pm PSU's OL

But why does that matter?  Moorehead showed that with his offense, even with that terrible OL, he could score on us at will.  Penn State had a top ten S&P+ offense last year even with that OL.  Give me that offense over any Pep Hamilton/Jim McElwain offense ever.  Hopefully Moorehead's departure has some immediate effects.

05/01/2018 - 11:39pm Miles Sanders

I haven't watched him, but Miles Sanders was a 5-star recruit, the number one running back in the 2016 class, and has averaged over 7 yards a carry in his limited time behind Barkley (who averaged 5.7 and 5.5 yards per carry the last two years).  I assume Sanders was playing in garbage time, but it is not crazy to think he will perform at a very high level.  Barkley was drafted extremely high (and added a lot in special teams), but I feel like we are already forgetting about Fournette, McCaffrey, etc. just from the past couple years and lionizing Barkley to an unreasonable extent.

The best thing for us is that Moorhead left PSU.      

02/16/2018 - 12:10pm Fisch v. Pep

Those quotes are describing the offense we had when Jedd Fisch was our passing game coordinator.  

2017 was a different offense, with a different passing game coordinator.

02/08/2018 - 11:53am Scot Loeffler

Boston College 2017 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 101

Boston College 2016 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 124

VA Tech 2015 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 72

VA Tech 2014 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 94

VA Tech 2013 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 91

Auburn 2012 S&P+ Offensive rank: No. 73

Instead of hiring coaches on the offensive side of the ball based on familiarity with one particular (outmoded) scheme, I would suggest we do what we did with Don Brown: hire a college coach with consistent past college success.  This isn't a guarantee of future success, but what is it in the numbers above (for Loeffler) or the numbers for Browns/Colts offenses that would suggest that it is more likely for those coaches to bring highly productive offenses to Michigan?


02/08/2018 - 11:19am Offensive coordinator

The biggest change at PSU was that they brought in Joe Moorhead.  If we had made a similar move this offseason, we would be looking at a much brighter future.  While we might not have OSU/Alabama talent, we do at least have top 10/15 talent.  And coupling very good talent with an innovative, modern college offense and excellent coaching can lead to pretty amazing results.    

02/06/2018 - 12:15am Unwillingness to move on from disaster on offense

Harbaugh's unwillingness to pull the trigger on a change after one of the worst passing offenses in UM history, be it out of a desire to help a friend/good human being get a "soft landing" at a new job or UM not wanting to eat three years of an extremely expensive, ill-advised contract, is probably the biggest sign so far that my expectations for Harbaugh were too high.  UM has some built-in disadvantages against programs like Alabama/OSU -- we don't cheat in recruiting, our state is not as talent-rich, etc.  The administration has opened up the purse strings for Harbaugh at an unprecedented level (and it can be justified).  But bringing in the Cleveland Browns' OC, running an outdated "pro-style" offense (I put it in quotes because successful pro team offenses are much more like modern college offenses), and then not being attuned to just how bad the results have been are all not good signs.  I'm glad the RPOs in the Super Bowl caught his attention.  I wish, however, he had been paying attention to successful college and pro offenses for the past few years, and had chosen to go with a modern, successful approach after the 2016 season ended and he was faced with replacing Fisch.   

02/03/2018 - 9:17pm 2018 Passing game coordinator vs 2016 Passing game coordinator

(And QB coach and WR coach.)


01/27/2018 - 3:56pm Georgia's OC offseason

Looking at endless hours of tape, studying the top 10 colleges offenses of the past year and the top 10 NFL offenses of the past year.  Learning from Oklahoma's offense, Penn State's (Moorhead's) offense.  Adding in RPO.…

I have no sense that Pep and Drevno are approaching the dumpster fire of the past year with this approach -- a willingness to learn, evolve, adapt.  At best, we have the metaphor of continuing to pump the same water pump, hoping that eventually water will come out.  That's not what Georgia did.  (And I think Georgia is an outlier for other reasons as well.)


01/27/2018 - 3:27pm Even younger on defense than offense

If youth was the cause of the problems, our defense would have fallen off a cliff this year.  It didn't.  We have excellent, proven defensive coaches.

We brought it in an NFL (not college) OC, who led one of the worst offenses in the NFL.  Prior to that, he was fired from a different NFL team, which also had less than stellar offenses.  The two years he was OC at Stanford, Borges at Michigan put up better offenses (and didn't have the benefit of Andrew Luck).  He was also OC at Howard, where his offenses were also, again abysmal.  He may be an excellent person and human being.  Why, however, is anyone surprised that our offense (and especially our passing game) regressed significantly under his watch?


01/20/2018 - 3:39pm 2016 v. 2017

In 2016, we had Jedd Fisch.  In 2017, he moved to UCLA.  UCLA's offense this year (its one year under Fisch) improved dramatically (Greg Robinson to Greg Mattison level improvement on S&P+).  Meanwhile, we brought in the OC from the Cleveland Browns (one of the worst offenses in the NFL), who had been let go from the Colts the year prior.  

01/19/2018 - 11:10pm Please hold on to the ball at least two steps pass the goal line

Just saw the first TD highlight.  Immediately thought of all those plays where runners have dropped the ball just as they were crossing into the end zone....

01/09/2018 - 1:20pm LSU's 2017 offense akin to our 2016 offense, not 2017 offense

2017 S&P+ Offense Ranking:

LSU: 42nd

Michigan: 86th



01/09/2018 - 12:29pm The defense lost more (player-wise) than the offense

There were far more starts among the players returning on the offensive side of the ball. 

Despite the youth and inexperience, the defense did not crater. 

The offense was historically bad.  

01/09/2018 - 12:16pm We are pulling for you, Ace

And thank you for sharing with us.  You are not alone. 

01/09/2018 - 4:31am Talent

Georgia just signed 9 out of the top 50 players in the 2018, including 6 five-star players.  We signed none.  Some of those top 50 players will play well as true freshmen. 

(Also of note: Alabama is trying to poach our one true elite recruiter (Patridge).)  

If I had to weigh the two, coaching/scheme on the offensive side is limiting us far, far more than recruiting.  According to 247Sports, we had the seventh highest team talent in the country this year.  Yes, Alabama, OSU, Georgia, and USC beat us out, but we were still well within the top 10, and ahead of teams like Stanford or Oklahoma..

That said, given the in-state talent disparity between Michigan and states like Georgia, Florida, Texas, and California, the fact that we do not cheat in recruiting the way SEC/certain ACC teams do (we thankfully hung on to Gary despite the inducements that our AD publicly mentioned were offered by another program, but we have clearly lost others), and that we have somewhat higher academic standards (e.g., we basically do not take JUCOs), we will likely be unable to consistently beat out Alabama, USC, Georgia, Texas, and LSU recruiting-wise (when those programs are not cratering). 

I think the better model for us is Oklahoma.  Not a ton of in-state talent, not known for shady recruiting practices.  They were ranked #16 in the country in team talent this year.  They have a good amount of talent, but they are not going to out-Alabama Alabama.  Rather, they utilize an explosive offense with Air Raid principles, and that offense gives the chance against even the best defenses (as in their game against Georgia this year).

01/04/2018 - 8:33pm Sam Pittman to Kurt Anderson

Arkansas might not have the same level of recruits as Michigan, but they recruited fairly well, and very consistently under Bielema -- always or almost always ranking in the 20s of 247Sports composites for recruiting classes. 

Nonetheless, their offensive production did suffer when Sam Pittman was hired away by Kirby Smart to Georgia and Anderson was hired to replace him. 

Pittman: 2014: #22; 2015: #4. 

Anderson: 2016: #39; 2017: #43.



01/04/2018 - 6:46pm Top 20 average S&P+ last four years

I like the idea, but I think you may have the wrong numbers for Enos:

2014: 88th (at CMU)

2015: 4th (at Arkansas, with Pittman)

2016: 39th (at Arkansas, after Pittman left for Georgia)

2017: 43rd (at Arkansas)

01/04/2018 - 6:39pm Primary reason

His offenses historically have been very, very bad.  (Auburn in 2012; Virginia Tech in 2013-2015; Boston College in 2016-2017.)

01/04/2018 - 12:23pm Exact opposite

That would be the exact opposite approach.  Don Brown had no prior to connection to Michigan or Harbaugh, but Harbaugh researched who had the best college defense statistically (and a history of success as a college DC).  Loefler's name would not pop up with that type of search.  (Boston College's offensive S&P+ ranking this year was No. 101, even worse than Michigan's.)

01/04/2018 - 5:13am 2015 and 2016 versus 2017

We had a different QB coach and passing game coordinator in 2017. 

Note that the passing game coordinator and QB coach who left UM after 2016 ended up at UCLA, whose S&P+ Offensive ranking jumped nearly 60 spots this year under his command. 

01/03/2018 - 4:35pm Borges's worst year (and Greg Robinson's worst year)

Even in Borges's worst year (2013), we still had an offense that ranked in the top 50 in Offensive S&P+.  This year, we were 86th -- i.e., much worse. 

Our offense this year was even worse than our defense in 2010 (in RR's last year, with Greg Robinson as DC), which was ranked 81st.


01/03/2018 - 6:41am His last (of two) years coaching NCAA

It's worth noting that he had a thirteen year run in the NFL, then coached as a high school OC for a year, coached at Stanford for two years, and has been back in the NFL for the past seven years.  

01/03/2018 - 6:29am Not sure

I'm not sure I follow or agree with you, but either way, I don't how that recommends Roman.  Even though the talent is closely aligned in the NFL, he could only coordinate an offense into the top 20% of teams once over six years.  That is not stellar.  Admittedly, that is better than hiring the OC of the Browns, with one of the absolutely worst offenses in the NFL.  

Also, P5 teams do appear frequently in the bottom half of the 130 teams when it comes to Offensive S&P+ ranking.  For instance, we were 86th this year.  (I believe we were 44th in Al Borges's last year.)

01/03/2018 - 6:17am Harbaugh needs to find a way to retain Partridge

The fact that Saban wants to poach him says it all.  Excellent coach and excellent recruiter -- elite teams (like Alabama) go after assistants who are both.  Crucial that we find a way to retain him.

01/03/2018 - 4:56am Out of 32

It's important to remember that there are only 32 teams in the NFL, unlike the 130 in the S&P rankings.  So that #16 in 2014, for example, would be the equivalent to a #65 ranking in the S&P in college.  There's only one year in that six year run in which his offense finished in the top 20% of NFL offenses.  Given what appears to be an absolutely awful hire last year (from one of the worst NFL teams), this hire might be an improvement, but it is definitely Harbaugh doubling-down on people he or his brother know, instead of looking for who is producing the best offenses (like he did when he went after Don Brown as a defensive coordinator).

01/03/2018 - 4:45am Overall

Overall, it seems like we might gain a slight bump in recruiting prowess (assuming we can hang on to Patridge) with these changes.  But plenty of folks are saying Roman hates recruiting (he has only spent two years coaching at any level in college), so the bump is limited.  If Harbaugh doubles down on the old NFL friend approach this off-season, I sure hope he demands that they pull their weight on the recruiting trail, even if it doesn't come naturally to them.  A conservative NFL offense not geared to the college game combined with lackluster recruiting is unlikely to lead Michigan to the results the fans are looking for.

01/03/2018 - 12:42am 2013 UM offense vs. 2017 UM offense

2013 UM offense (under Borges, after which he was fired): S&P+ Rank No. 44. .

2017 UM offense: S&P Rank No. 86.

01/03/2018 - 12:23am It's all on Harbaugh now

The fanbase and program have given him incredible amounts of resources and support.  He was the perfect candidate and the stars aligned to bring him here.  Going forward, it will all depend on him.  Does he take the approach he did on defense (hire the best guys for the job, based on their resume, even if he hasn't worked with them before) or does he take the approach he has largely done so far on offense, hiring people he knows who are former NFL coaches, who have not adapted to the college game, who do not have a track record of success in the college game, and who have little interest (or skill) in recruiting?  If he sticks to the latter, it is unlikely that even consistent top-10 or top-20 defenses will be able to counterbalance just how bad our offenses will be.  We have institutional/structural limitations that prevent us from being on the level of Alabama or Georgia consistently (much less in-state talent, we don't cheat in recruiting, higher academic standards, etc.), but without a change to how we approach offensive coaching (and recruiting by the offensive staff), I don't see Harbaugh having the Bo-like tenure that could be attainable, that most of the fanbase would be happy with, and that he might want as well.

01/01/2018 - 10:16pm Notre Dame brought in Memphis's OC after last year

Are we willing to make a similar move, instead of relying on the OC of one of the worst NFL teams?

01/01/2018 - 8:55pm With offensive coaches, we ignore past results

Or perhaps we wanted to install the Cleveland Browns offense....  In which case, mission accomplished!

01/01/2018 - 8:45pm Georgia

Just signed 9 out of the top 50 players in the country (to our zero), including 6 five-stars (to our zero).  If you have a significant talent advantage, old school pro-style isn't that bad. (Although Oklahoma is still beating them as I type this, even though Georgia has the vaunted defense, while Georgia is facing a much worse defense.)

Michigan is not located in a state with the talent of Georgia and does not cheat at recruiting.  Georgia can't be our model.  Oklahoma might be the best program to emulate.

01/01/2018 - 8:34pm Georgia

And they just signed 9 out of the top 50 players in the country (to our zero), so this idea that we will beat these teams with an unimaginative pro-style 1980s NFL offense -- when they have the better athletes -- is foolishness.

01/01/2018 - 8:11pm Drevno/Hamilton

Regarding Drevno, our offense was ranked 40 last year in S&P+ (and we also had Fisch helping).

Harbaugh's only previous experience with Pep Hamilton was one year as WR coach, I believe.  It seems like Hamilton didn't inform Harbaugh of the possibility/likelihood of Speight transferring.  The QB/WR coaching and passing game coordination this year might be bad enough for Harbaugh to pull the plug after an expensive, failed one-year experiment.  

01/01/2018 - 7:59pm NFL credentials

Greg Robinson won two Super Bowls with the Denver Broncos.  That did not make him a good DC at the college level.  His 2010 defense at Michigan was bad.

Pep Hamilton was fired from the Indianapolis Colts in 2015.  He was the OC of the Cleveland Browns in 2016, which had one of the worst offenses in the NFL.  (Then he came here, where we now have an offense ranked similarly to the 2010 Michigan defense.)


01/01/2018 - 7:42pm 2014 to 2015

There was a wholesale change in coaches from 2014 to 2015 (and Rudock)!

With Pep Hamilton this year, our offense is now ranked right around where our defense was during the last year of RR's tenure.  What 2018 looks like will depend a lot on what our staff next year looks like (on offense).  (On defense, Don Brown and the rest are producing results that are keeping the team above .500.)

01/01/2018 - 7:35pm Sold

Phil Longo had huge success in the lower ranks, was called up to be Ole Miss's OC this past year, and despite losing QB Patterson for most of the season, they ranked No. 11 in S&P+?  Sold.  

01/01/2018 - 7:23pm Promise to give to #ChadTough charity instead


01/01/2018 - 7:19pm OSU, MSU, PSU, WI, and ND

And each of those teams won 10 or more games this year!

The biggest improvement next year is going to be Nebraska under Scott Frost.  

If Harbaugh doesn't have an epiphany about offenses in college football, next year is going to be awfully painful.


01/01/2018 - 7:13pm Annesse/Stuursma

Are they legitimate options?  I was impressed with Gundy's approaching to finding his OC, looking for success in the lower ranks. 

01/01/2018 - 7:04pm From Fisch to Pep Hamilton

Fisch coached WRs prior to this year.

UCLA had him in 2017, and their offensive S&P+ ranking improved ~60 points.  Meanwhile, we brought in the Cleveland Browns OC as our passing game coordinator, and our QBs, WRs, and passing game (and overall offense) reached the level of our defense during RR's final season. 


01/01/2018 - 6:55pm Wouldn't be that difficult to implement

It wouldn't be that difficult to implement If we brought in good offensive coaches with the right background and approach.  

Instead we have (solely on the offense) plumbed the depths of very bad NFL teams.  Is it a surprise that our offense looks like the Cleveland Browns offense after we hired their OC, while our defense looks like the very good Boston College defense, after we hired their DC (a coach who was having success in the college game, at a program with fewer resources)?  

Hopefully a light will go on with Harbaugh.  (Even RR no longer insists on a 3-3-5.)  Maybe he will watch the successful teams in the CFP this year.  He wanted to win badly in laser tag and didn't limit himself to Queensberry rules.  Hopefully he will jettison the 1980s NFL limitations on our college football offense.  

12/29/2017 - 5:47am Herbert - some less positive views

Here is a Arkansas message board thread on him:…

Obviously, a lot of noise and differing opinions (and lots of the standard: S&C coach is easy scapegoat, S&C is given too much credit, etc., etc.).

One thing that stood out to me in the discussion was the hype video made showing Jonathan Williams doing a "one-leg" squat with 455 pounds (around the 1:20 mark):

One poster mentioned that this was just before Williams had a season-ending foot injury.  Probably unrelated, but let's just say I would find it interesting to hear some S&C experts discuss the pros and cons of Herbert's approach (re: injury avoidance and prevention, developing explosiveness vs. mass, etc.).    

It does seem that Herbert (and Bielema) valued adding bulk over all else.  (It's not the approach I would favor.)  

In digging for information, I was depressed to learn that Saban said in 2015 that MSU's S&C coach might be the best at what he does in the country.  (MSU's S&C coach Ken Mannie and Stanford's Shannon Turley have both won a S&C coach of the year award given by a website not favored by posters here.  As the nominations are made by ADs, AD staff and coaches, and previous winners vote on the result, I think the award has some credibility.)

I have not heard of any other names being thrown around.  Last time around, Kaz Kazadi's name popped up on the board.  (He was Baylor's S&C coach at the time, and also is a former winner of the S&C coach of the year award.)  He's at Arkansas State now working for peanuts.  I assume he would not be considered now by Michigan given that he worked with Briles at Baylor. 



12/27/2017 - 9:09pm You didn't answer my question

What did Michigan's offense this year give you?

(Oh, and we were losing 10-7 for most of the third quarter against this Purdue team.)

12/27/2017 - 8:58pm Offense

2017 Michigan Offensive S&P+ Ranking: No. 74 (out of 130)

2017 Arizona Offensive S&P+ Ranking: No. 9

If RR's offense gives you PTSD, what does Michigan's offense give you?

12/27/2017 - 7:07pm Offensive turnaround

Yep.  Franklin was even somewhat on the "hot seat," or at least that was part of the narrative (two 7-6 seasons to begin his tenture, with no wins against any decent Big Ten team) until Franklin hired Moorhead as OC and he completely revamped their offense.

2014 S&P+ Offensive Ranking (pre-Moorhead): 112

2015 (pre-Moorhead): 62

2016 (with Moorhead): 18

2017 (with Moorhead): 12

12/27/2017 - 6:46pm Filling in

What do you think the chances are that he becomes a full-time coach at UM next season?