Can DG be fixed? Who Broke Him?
Interesting write up from Matt Hinton over at Grantland, discussing DG and how the wheels fell off. I agree with Hinton saying that when DG is on, it's a Wow Experience. ND last year, the OSU game, etc. Devin IS a damn good QB (at times). Last summer scouts were salivating over him at the Manning Passing Academy. He graduated and is working on an MSW. He does great work in the community and has always been a model citizen. He's also now in his 3rd system, with a new QB coach, as the unquestioned team leader and his fundamentals (and probably his Mental-mentals) are a mess.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/qb-curve-devin-gardner-michigan-wolve…
To Saturday and Beyond: We should find out today whether Gardner or Morris is slated to start this weekend’s Big Ten opener against Minnesota, which seems like a damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don’t scenario. The general feeling among the fans is that Gardner is a lost cause, and it’s time to move on. (He appeared so out of sorts against Utah that some observers left wondering if Gardner is harboring a secret injury.) On the other hand, Morris has done nothing whatsoever in his relief appearances to suggest he’s going to fare any better; his only career start, in last year’s Buffalo Wild Wings Bowl, went poorly, and his first possession against Utah, following Gardner’s second interception, ended with an even uglier interception. Hoke is in no position to sacrifice the present for the future.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^
Considering the people who broke him are the ones still coaching him, I'd say no, he can't be fixed.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:09 AM ^
Ugh, this is patently false. Borges was his QB coach for 3 years, Nuss has had 7 months with him. Nuss's track record as a QB coach speaks for itself.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:17 AM ^
No shit. Obviously I wasn't referring to Al Borges.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^
The coaches.
Brian had an interesting point in the latest MGoPodcast. When Hoke is gone, a thing he'll be remembered for is having two dyanmic athletes at QB in his tenure and them getting worse and worse as they got older.
DG shouldn't be restricted to being a game manager.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:58 AM ^
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^
His interception numbers skyrocketed and his completion percentage plummeted under Hoke/Borges. Not sure that has anything to do with tempo or game situations.
In 2010 he completed 62.5% of his passes and threw 11 picks on 291 attempts.
In 2011 he completed 55% of his passes and threw 15 picks on 258 attempts.
In 2012 he completed 53.3% of his passes and threw 9 picks on 167 attempts.
His efficiency rating dropped by 10 points each season as well.
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:06 PM ^
I fully acknowledge that this is also a major style difference between RR and Borges wrt short passing. I just don't think it is black and white with Robinson in terms of performance drop off. I certainly didn't feel like Hoke and staff 'broke' him at the time prior to the injury. Trust me, I'm not defending the performance of the offense the past couple years, just trying to be objective in this discussion.
September 23rd, 2014 at 7:55 PM ^
If that theory held true, wouldn't our offense have looked a lot better against Utah and ND? If that was what happens when the other team is going easy on us, I shudder to think what the rest of the season has in store.
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:16 PM ^
I think DG would be flourishing in Rich Rod's offense if RR was not fired. I'm talking Marcus Mariota level.
September 23rd, 2014 at 2:55 PM ^
If I hear man-ball one more time I will hemorage and die. How many truly dominant man-ball teams are there anymore? Hell, the spread is even starting to leak into the NFL. You don't have to run DG a lot, just the threat is enough. The problem is, with the RR offense, you get the stunningly pathetic RR Defense. We are cursed by stubborn ideologues back to back, each only capabale of coaching half a team.
September 24th, 2014 at 12:00 PM ^
Now you can stop worrying.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:14 AM ^
in one of our big early games under RR (maybe the second season against ND?) I remember thinking how everyone was convinced he couldn't throw. The system--and what a player is actually equipped to do--is so damned crucial.
I don't see DG thriving here. But I won't be surprised if he goes and gets right with some good QB adviser after leaving and ends up in the NFL. Such a bright guy. . . I really grieve that he had been jacked around like this.
September 23rd, 2014 at 1:03 PM ^
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:08 PM ^
he's just missing on a ton of his passes
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:55 AM ^
Well he did state that for his first 3 years at Michigan he really didn't work very hard at learning the playbook, getting better, etc.
I'm guessing he did this because he felt Denard was always going to be in front of him.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:56 AM ^
Whether or not Devin is hurt, idk. What I do know is that his confidence appears shot. Confidence with quarterbacks is a huge part of their game. A QB void of confidence is a qb void of trust. I think the OL issues and the beatings he has taken under center have had a big effect on him. This is a guy who has been through an awful lot, yet all he does is get slammed by fans and on the internet. Even his teammates don't appear to have his back. He has been on the receiving end of 2 huge cheap shots that his teammates didn't even react to, to me that says a lot.
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:07 PM ^
Being a fan of the team and the Philadelphia Eagles, that cheap shot he took against Notre Dame at the end of the game is almost identical to the one Nick Foles just took that ended up in a team wide brawl with two ejections. And those are contract players and not college teammates.
Maybe the Michigan players were kinda beat after the ass kicking they just took but what happened to the fire? Arent teams that are getting embarassed suppose to be more chippy and on edge?
I'm probably gonna get downvoted to shit but teams of the last few years just look soft and lacked heart and that's not so much on the players as it is on the coaching. Just don't see that "worked too hard to be losing" attitude.
September 23rd, 2014 at 2:26 PM ^
Although I'm not disputing that at this point of his career, he probably has a little David Carritis in him in that hes terrified of the pressure and is getting awfully antsy back there and feels phatom pressure, I have to believe that he is significantly hurt. He has tried to throw a few deep balls that weren't even close to reaching their targets and had no zip. I noted to my friends a few times in the game that Gardner all of a sudden looks like he has an incredibly weak arm.
Also on his 2nd interception, assuming the target was Canteen (and it wasn't a wrong route) there was no way that ball was making it to Canteen, even if there were no defenders there. That you can't chalk up to being broken or feeling phatom pressure
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:58 AM ^
Is Michigan football Robocop now?
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:59 AM ^
Probably a couple of things, some of which we won't know, like personal work ethic, but I think it's mostly on the coaches and transistions. Rich Rod did not/does not put a large emphasis on mechanics. I believe he's even stated that he really just cares about the QB getting the ball there, not how he looks doing it. RR designed his offenses that a QB doesn't need great mechanics to be succesful in the passing game. Then there was a mass overhaul in offensive systems where he received 3 years of 'anti-coaching' to quote Brian, followed by a third system. and coaches that seem unwilling to do anything that lessens the burden on him.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:14 AM ^
Do you mean the great QB guru, who instructed Gardner how to identify the Mike, is unwilling to do anything that lessens the burden on him? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a howl of righteous indignation when it was learned that Gardner could only now identify the Mike? Then wasn't there an almost instantaneous sigh of relief when it was realized The Nuss would put everything right and that the world would be good again? So now you're saying Nussmeier is part of the problem?
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:29 AM ^
At this point, I actually don't put a ton on Nuss. I've seen enough of him at other schools being very successful and doing things he hasn't shown here (yet at least), that I think it's mostly on Hoke at this point. That said, Nuss hasn't made the turn around I and most others had hoped for regardless, so he does share blame.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:32 AM ^
think he is part of the "problem" but I do think he is one of the reasons that Gardner does not look the way we remember. I just think it is part of a system that is being installed. Gardner has less of oppurtunity to "wow" the team out of trouble because Nussmeier is insisting on the run. Borges insisted on the run until it was shown that we could not run it effectively or consistently and then he said "screw this we are airing this thing out," just like he tried to run with tailbacks with Denard until that got stuffed and then he just let Denard loose. We were able to come from behind in some games and make things interesting, but in the process we also abandoned any identity we were trying to establish. I think Nussmeier is saying that "we are going to win playing this system or we are going to lose." He is refusing to put lipstick on a pig. I think it is on Gardner to adjust and prove he can do this or Morris will play, even if he has not proven he can play that much better right now.
September 23rd, 2014 at 1:08 PM ^
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:08 AM ^
Who Broke Him?
Many people broke DG...
Pat Narduzzi and the MSU defense started it... Al Borges, the O-Line, and Brady Hoke have finished the job.
Can he be fixed?
I ultimately believe no... As someone who played college football and lost their confidence on the football field, he looks lost between the ears. I remember that look on myself. It's tough to get it back when you're under duress at all times. I played at a small school I cant imagine what the pressure of playing at a school of Michigan's calibur is like. I hope he finds whatever it was he personally lost, but I don't see it happening.
It's time to move hime to wide-out and let him showcase talents for the NFL.Let Morris take his hand at the starting job and gain experience for next year.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:02 AM ^
DG is a great athlete but not a pocket/pro style QB. I just don't feel that he is at his best sitting in the pocket, reading coverages and going through progressions. He is a spread or read option guy and that would the type of offense that would get the most out of his capabilities. He doesn't have the strongest arm, tends to float passes and accuracy is suspect at times. I suspect that the latter points is maybe why we don't see much of a downfield passing game as far as play calling goes. I've always had a belief that DG would be a WR today if the Bellomy debacle woundn't have occured.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:04 AM ^
the push lob floaty pass thing?
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:38 AM ^
I don't recall seeing those in past years, but we see those lobs repeatedly this year. I just don't get why he is doing that on passes that actually go downfield as opposed to dumpoffs.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:39 AM ^
I don't recall seeing those in past years, but we see those lobs repeatedly this year. I just don't get why he is doing that on passes that actually go downfield as opposed to dumpoffs.
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:47 PM ^
I saw a clip of Nuss coaching it. It's a way to get the pass over linebackers playing shallow zone. If you line drive it it gets there faster, but it's at a height where the front seven can block or even spear it out of the air. See: last year's UConn game, Willie Henry's pick six.
However, you need timing and precision to do that and Gardner is lacking the latter. You can't underthrow or overthrow it or either a linebacker picks it off or the deep safety goes "thanks!".
I think he's hiding a hand injury because it's one thing to be inaccurate and another to struggle to hit Funchess on a slant.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:04 AM ^
The dip in production has coincided with a big downgrade in our offensive talent. Last year we had Gallon and Funchess. This year it is just Funchess. The offensive line has gotten worse each of the last two seasons. In late 2012 DG had Denard hanging out in the backfield to keep the defense honest, while now the running game is pretty much non-existent against legit competition.
Loss of confidence and a possible injury are issues, but a big factor is that the team around him just isn't as good.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:05 AM ^
For openers, as Lord G pointed out, those who broke him are still coaching him. Aside from that, he doesn't have the intangibles (confidence, poise, resilience, field vision, I may be missing a few) to take this team very far. Unless he's in a good rhythm and things are going well, he falls apart or at best, starts to get wildly inconsistent. At this point, the best strategy with him is to turn him into a game manager by making the focus of the offense getting the ball out quickly and minimizing his time in the pocket. We'll still need to throw some long ones on occasion to keep defenses honest. But, without reducing the turnovers by a significant amount, we're done.
All that being said, I'm still a little suspicious that Devin has some nagging injury that's limiting him. But, it seems the coaches would not let him play if it was anything significant. Several plays against Utah, he seemed to have a real problem getting the ball out there.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:06 AM ^
I've been confused at his lack of running and when he does run he seems much slower than last year. Maybe the foot injury robbed him of some speed. There was a moment vs MAC level LBs he was outrun in the Miami of OH game and that would not have happened the first 7-8 games of 2013 (later in the year he was slower as the cummulative effect of the hits wore on him).
I wrote this on another post but since he only really focuses on his first read I dont understand why the coaching instruction is "if read 1 (or 2) is not there, immediately run... or throw it out of bounds."
He ran 14-16 times most of last year, I dont get why he is not running 8-10 times at least vs ND and Utah. I get not running vs App State or Miami OH - no need too. But he is a square peg in a round hole.
I cant speak to his passing issues - he seems broken there and regressing. The guy who was throwing 40-50 yard bombs to Gallon during Indiana ... is he inside DG? I dont even know anymore.
I do feel really bad for what has happened to him. I see the same tendencies I see in Matt Stafford although Stafford is obviously a far superior player. Matt was hit a lot early in his career and tends to get rid of the ball early the past few years leading to bad footwork. Now his arm strength and QB profile is a whole different level so he can get away with it a lot - when his mechanics break down he throws high but still he gets it in the right area. When Devin's mechanics break down its not that pretty and he doesnt have a bunch of NFL WRs around him. I just think he has been beaten to a pulp to such a degree his mental clock is completely off - he probably hears footsteps the second he gets the ball and in a way I cannot blame him based on the OL the past few years.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:07 AM ^
Count me in the camp that thinks he's harboring a secret injury. If I had to guess, it was from the shot he took after the INT at the end of the ND game.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:50 AM ^
I'm with you. I had the thought a few games ago that he didn't look nearly as fast as he did last season on scrambles and his throws just looked awkward. This just doesn't happen without something else contributing, especially after getting praise at many offseason camps (in particular the Manning Camp). I immediately thought it was a mid section injury. He might have got popped in the ribs or had an abdominal injury. Anything abdominally or rib related can impact all movement if it's severe enough. And this could be the driving force behind Hoke's adamancy to not discussing injuries. It could lead to someone asking about Gardner and giving the other team reasons to go after him even more.
Not 100% confident in my thoughts, but things just aren't adding up at all.
September 23rd, 2014 at 2:46 PM ^
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:27 PM ^
This is exactly what I was thinking. If he didn't have a previous foot injury then I'd just say leg, but something doesn't look right!
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:11 AM ^
the system is broken -
he needs to be used properly. He can be successful if given the opportunity
He is probably not a 'pocket passer' but he can be explosive in other strategies
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:36 AM ^
Give Gardner to Chip Kelly and the he'd be gunning for a Heisman.
On MNF last night, they showed the playbook that Geno Smith had at WV under Dana Holgorsen (maybe 10 laminated pages) and the playbook under Morningwheg (a TPS report sized binder). I know Nuss isn't Good Ol' Marty, but the system isn't very different (an neither was Borges').
How the hell is a college kid getting a Masters and playing football supposed to master a binder sized playbook in 6 months? If Gardner were on the bench in this system for 3 years, then yes, he should and would have, but not in 6 months.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^
for QB's you fall back on technique and mechanics. DG has neither.
He will continue to be slow to set himself in the pocket, continue to stare down receivers, continue to panic at the first sign of pressure and continue to throw wildly off target.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:14 AM ^
I think that Gardner can be fixed, in that he can be set up to regain his confidence and be successful—within a limited definition of that word—this year. You come out with a slightly simplified gameplan, give him a bunch of reps at plays and reads that he can is comfortable with, and help him feel more free to use his feet. Really play to his strengths for a game or two This will all help rebuild his confidence and make him a compentent—and at times, thrilling—player again. While Gardner, unfortunately, is not likely to be as good I believe he could have been with years of consistent coaching, he'll still be better than Morris would be right now. And I think it is imperative that we keep Morris on the bench.
As Brian has pointed out here, our QB situation is terrible. Morris is really our only hope at QB for the next year or two (as I'd like to avoid playing a freshman). So we need to make sure that he is going to be as good as he possibly can be in 2015 and '16.
So, if Morris isn't an upgrade over Gardner this year, then the only reason to play Morris now would be if it would make him better in 2015 and '16. But I don't think that playing in this offense is going to help. Instead, I think Morris needs lots of practice reps, lots of game film, and some mop-up action, all without the pressure of trying to save the program and his coach's job. Because if we destroy Morris's confidence this year, who else is there to turn to?
Plus, I just love Gardner when he's on, and I think he's got a few more of those games in before it's all over.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:18 AM ^
At this stage of his career, his accuracy and mastery of the system are unlikely to improve. But the more often he’s able to tuck and run in a non-breakdown, non-panic scenario, the more room he and the receivers are likely to find downfield.
It's an interesting thought really, and in combination with a rushing attack that shows signs of being serviceable so far, I wonder if the staff has thought about doing this a little more than they have. It could be that he is injured or that the foot injury robbed him of some mobility, but I keep thinking about Chip Kelly-esque stuff - some inside zone looks but with a mobile QB - and wonder if they have considered emulating it (obviously, we're not Oregon, so no one should expect that sort of explosiveness) on a scaled basis (say, a few times per game) to at least to get into the head of the defense that it might happen.
I don't know, wondering out loud really...I don't presume to be the better judge or to know what the staff sees that we don't. I suppose this is a question I had after Saturday though.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:23 AM ^
I just feel really bad for Gardner, because
- He seems like a stand up guy by all accounts
- He stuck with the program through 2 HCs, 3 OCs, and a transition from the position he was recruited for (QB) to WR and back to QB
It just doesn't seem fair that he has anything less than a stellar season this year, but (so far) that doesn't look like it's in the cards.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:35 AM ^
DG's was the #1 square peg recruit, that has been asked the last 2 years to fit in a round hole. It's made no sense. WIth a bad offensive line, wouldn't the spread and QB run looks be more effective than expecting a pocket to hold with a bad O line that can't contain the 9 men in the box who know the team can't run on them anyway?
Worse yet, is anyone else incredibly underwhelmed with the pass routes Nuss has receivers running? Appears virtually every route is deep into traffic. Where are the sideline patterns or some roll out deep bombs away from the safety?
Why not take a few shots deep downfield to at minimum gain some safety respect so that very same safety doesn't take 4 steps forward to crowd the box and stop the obligatory dink/dunk play on third down?
Don't the coaches realize that being conservative to "protect" players only snowballs because the opposing D just crowds the box and mid-zone?
Why the fuck not put Funchess, Norfleet and Canteen out there and just bomb away, to the flats, sidelines and deep, and if they fall incomplete, at least you took a damn chance at one explosive play?
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:37 AM ^
Why did they pull Gardner after his second INT? Did he look THAT bad (I fell asleep at halftime and glad I did)? It's one thing to pull your guy like a hockey goalie that just has a bad day. It's another to pull the guy b/c you're just done with him and want the second guy to take over. Not sure which one happened here, but 2 INTs alone shouldn't be cause for the pull.
Also, I agree he is digressing. I hope the coaches haven't shot his confidence and that's the cause. If that's the case, I have no hope that they will develop Morris or Speight for that matter.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:53 AM ^
He did look that bad. Lots of poor throws. Even when he had time and/or completed a pass it was almost always a good play by the receiver for anything positive to happen.
September 23rd, 2014 at 7:12 PM ^
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