OT: Sweden 'literally gained nothing' from staying open during COVID-19, including 'no economic gains'
* Sweden's central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, which is as bad or worse than its Nordic neighbors.
* They have a per-capita death rate 40% worse than the US, and 700%-1200% worse than Norway and Finland.
* While other economies around them are opening up, Sweden now has the strictist restrictions on movement of these 3 countries.
8.0.1Well Mr. BoFan, since you joined the party, let me ask you: How many deaths does it take for you to take action? I bet I can find someone with a lower number. Does that make you a selfish ass hole to them? Hmmm.
Because there was... no COVID. Dude, come on - I've read some of your posts and I feel like deep down, you're intelligent enough to know you're better than this.
I get your take. But supporting/not-supporting a mask mandate is a little different than adhering to one, or disputing the government's (or private businesses') ability to put a mask mandate in place.
The way I see it, this is not dissimilar to drunk driving. I'm sure any amount of alcohol can be shown to slightly increase the chance of an accident. Still, society set a limit above which it is now illegal to get in your car and drive (and below that limit is determined to be ill-advised but OK). Why? Because, and this is OK and generally accepted, society/lawmakers drew a line where your individual actions have a high enough chance of hurting/killing others that acting in that way is illegal. Whether you actually hurt/kill someone or not.
Now apply to COVID. We weren't wearing a mask before...as a society there was some risk but it was below a generally accepted limit. Now that risk has increased by somewhere between 2x-10x and it is totally reasonable for society to now put in place mandates that reduce that risk back below acceptable levels. By going out without a mask, it is the same as drunk driving, you are endangering others and society can apply penalties to that in the same way.
It also explains perfectly well why the people on this thread may not have been wearing a mask before but now support mandates and wear masks themselves. It's society's call, not any individual person's call, whether to put these mandates in place. Our system of government means lawmakers are given the power to make these decisions.
I get your reply, but remember, my initial post was in response to someone who said "For real, as a society we need to learn that not every topic has two sides worth considering."
And with 68 upvotes at the time of me writing this comment, it appears a large number of folks agree with that. That's scary.
I don't agree with the mask mandate. That doesn't mean I wouldn't abide by one if it became law where I live. But I'm allowed to voice my opinion on where I think that line should be. Your drunk driving analogy is actually a good one (and one I've thought about from time to time myself comparing to this covid situation). Yes, society decided on a limit to where driving intoxicated becomes drunk driving and endangers others. Fair enough. All I'm doing is voicing my opinion that when it comes to covid, the line has not been reached. That's all. The people responding saying I'm not considering facts, dismissing science, or simply namecalling are, of course, not getting it.
What I said was "I personally believe the shutdowns and mask usage mandates are stupid." That's how I feel. Because I simply don't believe the risk of covid warrants such an action. (Not even close, IMO.) I do believe masks should be mandated and government shutdowns mandated for certain threats. I know it's far fetched, but I would say hell yes to this type of response (and more) for bubonic plague. But for covid? With the death rates we've seen? No. But again, that's my opinion that, back to the person I initially responded to... absolutely deserves to be considered. It might not wind up being the consensus and thus, the law may go against my opinion, but where do good laws and limits come from if not from healthy debate? I'm willing to bet there are issues in this world where my feelings of safety are more conservative than the general public. Do I call people who are willing to risk more than I on those issues "selfish assholes"? Of course not. It's their opinion on that issue. For me, covid's threat isn't worth the consensus response. So, if I can add my 2 cents into the public thought pool I can help steer that consensus. If I don't say anything (and if nobody ever said anything), then we're all just sheeple.
Bottom line: It's just risk management. Everyone has their limit on how much death is acceptable for a given topic. Drinking and driving has a limit. Highways have speed limits. Drug usage has limits (zero in some states). Response to diseases has limits. I work in the space industry, and we deal with risk to astronauts every day! In this case, to this disease, mask usage and shutdowns isn't warranted, IMO. Not even close - again, IMO. If it were another disease, with a much higher death rate, then yeah, mask away! Anyone who has ever driven over the speed limit, for example, should have no grounds to say "I'm selfish" or "an asshole" for that opinion. You've endangered people, too. It's just you've judged the rule in place not warranted.
That's a fair argument, and your initial point gets a little lost in this thread. Our opinion differs on where to draw the line for a mask mandate, probably for a variety of reasons. I agree, the debate should be on the merits of the mandate not on whether there should be a debate. Frankly, the latter is kind of self defeating because clearly there's debate...so why bother debating whether we should debate and just get to the topic at hand (not meant as a dig at you, rather at the people saying it's not debatable).
I personally feel a mask mandate makes sense regardless of risk tolerance or what you believe the severity of COVID is.
Mask mandates are, most likely, one of the best ways to deal with (and prevent) localized outbreaks and for most people are a pretty small price to pay. There are a number of studies showing effectiveness of even low-quality masks at reducing spread if there's wide adoption. Preventing outbreaks is the #1 way to get people back to work --> look at Sweden. They didn't formally shut down their economy but it shut down anyway. People are scared, people are getting very ill and dying, there's enough uncertainty around COVID for that to be understandable regardless of what your opinion is on how bad COVID actually is. Get it under control with a mask mandate so more people feel comfortable going back into the world and get people back to work. It'll also save a few lives.
I personally believe the shutdowns and mask usage mandates are stupid
For the life of me I don't get why people seem to hold the same views on these two.
I don't want us to ever shut down again (it's going to take a long time to dig out of this economic hole) but I see mask use as an essential part of avoiding that. It's easier to keep businesses open during COVID if we have widespread mask use. It's a pretty simple argument.
lol if you are anti-mask you're basically a dumbfuck with no principals whatsoever, other than I should get to do what I want. The shutdown and resulting economic hell can certainly be debated, but masks is minor inconvenience and can't be seriously debated, except by right wing nut jobs who want to reduce it to an argument about "freedom," never mind the other 25,000 laws and regs that govern your conduct every day you're alive.
1. Trust science. 2. See hospital and clinic protocols—every flu season they require masks at our Kaiser centers; doctors wear masks for prevention as a standard protocol, and they don’t bitch about it or see it as political (but as science). 3. Every single country who has contained the virus/slowed the curve/ or have the curve down to bottom with minimal, quickly traceable outbreaks has mask wearing mandates.
Why this needs to be proven in July to Americans when the data and the daily life stories clearly show the US is failing where every other G7 is succeeding is beyond me.
The EU has a larger population and fewer cases than US now. Asian countries with mask-wearing norm have also abated the virus.
What do mask deniers have? Shouts of freedom, shouts of “my breathing is harmed,” shouts of “a hoax,” it is the “flu” and nothing, absolutely nothing that looks at the entire globe and points to a country of non-mask wearing success.
Leave party politics out of it and there are absolutely no scientific reasons or studies that have countered the massive benefits of mask wearing as a population (80% mask wearing greatly slows transmission; 95% compliance damn near makes it quickly traceable). The very few anecdotal studies or YouTube influencers showing masks lower oxygen levels are: 1) not replicated by peer reviewed studies. 2) ignore all the data of effectiveness for larger populations that have worn masks for decades (healthcare and Asian countries), and 3) fail to mention that those with severe enough breathing issues are small part of population and, even if masks were hard for them, they could do pick-ups and deliveries, many times free services.
Companies have gone out of their way to give customers who “cannot” wear masks options or have said they are okay with losing the business of those that don’t comply (their right as private companies).
How many hours a day are most people talking? 30 minutes to an hour in a store? An hour at a restaurant? Two?
How often are people eating out, or going grocery shopping, or being in bigger crowds?
How can Target employees wear masks for entire shifts with some breaks but the customers cannot?
The virus isn’t an opinion, even if people want to act like it is. It is a globally recognized health danger, and just because Americans think they have a right to an opinion, their opinion isn’t right.
And just because we are allowed to be individuals, we are still a society with governance that is meant to protect the whole from the individuals. We drove the speed limit because it minimizes risks. We don’t smoke in public because we don’t get to make others suffer for our individual choices. We don’t drive drunk for the same reasons.
People have to be willfully individual over anything or anyone else, thus supremely selfish, to see public mask wearing is anything but a necessary public health safety protocol to slow the virus way the fuck down.
Are you aware that you can get a flu shot every year? So far, no shot/vaccine available for COVID-19...That is why the masks and lockdowns are necessary.
Though I understand your point, you are kind of making the original "critic" poster's point... You realize flu shot does not cover all types of flu and there are multiple flu shot types (2 well known ones). That is why even with flu shots available, we had a higher death last year (and no, it was not due to people not taking the vaccine).. Why? The vaccine that was distributed and used last year was covering certain flu type and the one virus that flu shot did not cover was more widespread and factored to many people's death..
So just you know, the flu short argument does not necessarily always hold weight..
You saying we should wear a mask during high flu season is a great idea. Doubling down on bad ideas is something you shouldnt use to prove your point. The “you know who” checklist of whether you fight something or not.
1. Does it save your life?
2. Is it convenient for you?
If the answers are no to both them there are no more questions to ask.
You can turn what you call opinions into something more concrete. You can do any number of analysis to show the benefits of wearing a mask, for example......i.e. preventing spread results in more people working which leads to a better economy.
Or you could assign a value to quarantined hours vs. non-quarantined hours vs. sick hours vs. extended life hours, etc. Obviously, individuals will have different values, and we all have to decide, if you don't agree with the general population, what do I do? Which is more of a moral question.
Most people just do this intuitively, value is a human concept after all.
Careful. You are not among friends here regarding your thoughts/opinion on this issue. I applaud you for sharing your thoughts on the over-hyped COVID-19 insanity.
If someone tells me I shouldn’t eat shit, I’m gonna go ahead and skip the argument that I should eat shit.
DualThreat, you are a terrible person. This is a short term issue (maybe a few years) that we need the tiniest of favors from you. Your response is go fuck off and (literally) die. I can't be inconvenienced in the slightest of ways. This is not flu. Flu is very well understood and hasn't spread out of control with no predictability. And guess what, if I'm exposed to flu and around people with comorbidities, I do wear a mask and I make my kids where a mask. Right now there are just too many unknowns and we're asking you to not be a dick for a few minutes of your day. There are literally only 4 arguments I'm aware of for not wearing a mask and they all suck:
1. There are health risks. Really, show me. How many people have died from wearing a mask? Why aren't surgeons who wear masks 10-20 hours straight dying? You think it's more likely that you'll die from wearing a mask for 20 minutes at the grocery store than from COVID? Why are you so scared of this non-existent risk but not COVID?
2. They are uncomfortable. So is being on a ventilator. Get over it.
3. They look dumb. Too bad.
4. I'm a dick, go fuck off and die.
You seem to be hiding behind #1 (though you admit you're unwilling to defend it) and #4.
Do you wear a seat belt, even on planes? Why will you do that but not wear a mask? Do you refuse to drive sober because only 10,000 people die from drunk drivers and because go fuck yourself? There are hundreds of things that people do every day for the sake of trying not to kill everyone else. Why is this tiny inconvenience the thing that you're willing to fight about?
Aside from your personal attacks, you actually make good points.
First, let me remind you (and others who have levied the personal attacks) that I have this opinion on this one issue. Does it mean I'm a nazi, racist, that would never help another human soul? To you, I probably come off that way. You don't know me. You don't know the instances in this world where I've been compassionate to our fellow man and agree with issues that benefit the health of humanity. So, careful about making sweeping judgements about people. Those attacks only lessen your credibility.
I don't fall into your category #1. I do think there are health risks, but not nearly compared to the health benefits. Those people who claim the health risks of masks are the reason they don't wear them.... well, I think we agree that's bogus (and goes against the science).
If I had to pick one of your categories, I'd say I fall into your category #4. But I would phrase it: "I've judged the risk to myself and others due to covid not worth the response."
I do wear a seatbelt. And I don't drive drunk. I agree with the risk/response assessment for those conditions. But I don't agree with the response to covid.
Let me ask you a simple question: If the death rate of covid was 1/2 what is currently is, would you still support masking? If yes, what about 1/4? Where is your line in the sand? You obviously have one, otherwise you'd be wearing a mask your whole life. I'll tell you mine. I think if Covid was about 10 times more deadly than it is, I'd support masking and shutdowns. There's my answer. So, how many people have to die before you think it's worthwhile to wear a mask?
If the death rate of COVID was 1/2 what is currently, would I still support a mask? Yes, absolutely. Death is not the only consideration but let's start there. Through 4 months about 130,000 people have died directly from COVID in the US. Divide by 2, multiply by 3 and you're still looking at 195,000 deaths in a year and that's using numbers from a time when most diseases don't spread well (spring/summer). Now a quick reminder about flu deaths: they are very rarely directly attributable. Flu deaths are calculated after the fact by looking at macro death trends. Death certificates very rarely say Flu. The way flu deaths are calculated are having a negative impact on the current pandemic and seem to normalize death. We really shouldn't compare the two.
The problem with COVID is that we know very little about it. We don't know if people build immunity or for how long. We don't have a vaccine. We don't have any reliable treatments. We don't know the long term impacts. Flu has very known impacts and society feels better about accepting those risks. COVID is doing things we've never seen. I personally know two people, both under 50 that had COVID and recovered fairly easily. Unfortunately they both have major heart problems now. One had a clot and died, the other has severely reduced heart function and has a pacemaker now and can't function normally. There is a lot of indication that high percentages of people have long lasting lung damage. What impact will that have COVID requires much longer hospital stays in ICUs. There are no major public events (concerts, sports, school, etc) and still ICUs are full in several areas. If you have a heart attack or car accident you won't get into the hospital. I don't care if 0 people died, I'd still wear a mask since ICUs are filling and hospital systems are a mess and it's getting worse and we have no plan. The only thing that seem to help is staying away from people - face masks are a way to get closer to people without sharing as many germs. Again, it's not just death, there are huge societal impacts. You are already accepting risks that you can't define other than as immediate death.
Let me ask you some questions, can you equate the inconvenience to any other life sacrifice you make? Why is this a big deal to you? Do you wear a condom? That seems like a much bigger inconvenience. Do you wear a helmet when biking/skiing/motorcycle, etc? Do you believe in vaccinations? Do you litter everywhere and tell the rest of the world to deal with the clean up? Do you ever consider your actions and impacts on the rest of society?
And yes, I made personal attacks. Maybe that's not cool but I'm so sick of this attitude. You are saying it would take millions of US deaths before you'd be willing to make any personal sacrifice (which I don't even consider a sacrifice). I find that disgusting. If you don't care about COVID, do you care about the vast part of society that is taking a pay cut or lost their job? Do you care that we are racking up trillions in debt to try to ease this societal pain? Do you care about the doctors that took pay cuts and are working longer hours to try to treat something that they don't understand? Do you care about anyone or anything other than yourself? It doesn't seem like it and therefore it is my opinion you're a terrible person. Maybe you are very nice and give to charities, i don't care. This is a much bigger moment and to flaunt your disregard for millions of Americans dying (your stated point of concern) and 10s of millions being devastated by disease and economic ruin just seems terrible to me.
Not worth discussing on this board, friend. This is a close-minded board only. Only those with group-think are allowed to participate. The road to hell.......
This is not necessarily true.
Herd immunity without a vaccine is not a thing. That is unless you are cool with tens of thousands more dead people.
Shooting yourself so you don't get shot by someone else with a gun.
I've been thinking about this. Do you consider we have herd immunity to the Flu? The other Coronavirus strains?
What's your standard for herd immunity? Zero spread? Zero deaths? If so, I agree.
But there is reason to believe there will never be an effective vaccine to this coronavirus. There are reasons why there are no vaccines for current coronavirues.
So for me, herd immunity would be this being no worse than seasonal flu.
Republicans have made their position known. They’re all in with Trump.
Open at any cost. No matter the death toll, hazards on healthcare workers being spread too thin etc.
On the bright side, I have epic stories to tell to the few future residents who decide to commit their lives to a thankless career made even more pronounced by this pandemic.
That's horseshit, and your Republican bashing gets very wearisome. I have a lot of liberal friends who are very opposed to wearing masks out in publi so please stop making it seem that all liberals are mask wearing saints...
The overgeneralizations these days are no doubt problematic. In addition to your anecdotes about your liberal friends not wearing masks, the county in which I live, which is predominantly Republican, was measured to be wearing masks around 75% of the time with no mandate in place. Public health has seemingly been influenced by party politics, but has not yet been defined by them.
I agree it shouldn't be a republican vs democratic problem (vaccine deniers seem to be both parties), but in this instance, there is a large portion of the current republican party that are the majority of the non-mask wearing crowd. This is mostly due to certain right wing media pushing this talking point. There is also the republican party in Wisconsin that got the state supreme court to reverse actions taken by the governor that were in alignment with Michigan (D), Ohio (R) and Illinois and Indiana governors (don't know their affiliation). I saw Ohio's governor talking about the poor response by Trump and his statements. We need more people like him to call out their own party.
I think that is where a lot of frustration comes from. This should absolutely not be a political discussion, yet there is a large portion of the republican party that is pushing this as a political problem. Other countries have shown that masks and distancing reduce this problem. Hell, Michigan's curve matches European countries. I wish we all looked at wearing masks as patriotic since we are doing a small part to help reduce the spread and get back to normal. (note: my dad is a republican who wears a mask).
Yeah, it turns out their strategy may have not worked as hoped, and I now seeing everyone piling on with glee that Swedes are dying. FYI, their per capita death rate is slightly worse than the U.S., but better than Italy, Spain, the UK, and Belgium.
Which makes me wonder - why isn't anyone picking on Belgium? They locked down pretty early and very severely and yet still suffered more than TWICE AS MANY deaths per 100K as the U.S. They are now saying that, second wave or not, they are not returning to lockdowns. What do we take away from that?
I think people need to realize that this situation is evolving and idiosyncratic and outcomes aren't perfectly correlated to any one set of policy options.
Japan is fascinating too. They still have no idea why they have been basically immune to Covid thus far. Is it because of genetics? Previous exposure to Covid? They haven't had the new version we have in the west?
I wonder if the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 was this "interesting" to live through.
We aren't allowed to name flu's by location anymore, FYI.
Unless it’s from a hick trailer park because making fun of red necks is ok right?
Japanese typically wear masks during flu season to begin with. The adherence to mask wearing in public is close to 100%.
There is nothing too complicated about Japan.
They wear mask religiously.
They are natural social distancers despite the population density.
They're smart and follow rules well.
Natural social distancers and mask wearers in a city of 37 million, almost all of whom use public transportation. Try again.
If it was that easy, every country in the world wouldn't have to go back into lockdown every time they come out of it for 30 seconds.
It is that easy, which is why the many first world countries are opening things back up. We are just too stupid to listen.
Natural social distancers is a weird term, but the point of it is that they are more likely to follow guidelines while going about their day.
Masks, avoiding physical contact where possible (not on packed trains but in general), etc are all things they are willing to do to continue living somewhat normal lives.
Natural social distancers? Have you ever been on a bus in Tokyo?
There is nothing too complicated about Japan.
They wear mask religiously.
They are natural social distancers despite the population density.
They're smart and follow rules well.
"They are natural social distancers despite the population density."
The Sarin gas terrorist don't agree with this statement...
This is stupid and I don't think I even need to tell you why.
The mask thing can't be overstated. 
Japanese people usually think of the "greater good" rather than the self. So if wearing a mask helps society as a whole, they do it.
In the US, we are very focused on the self. Wearing a mask is not for the mask wearer. It is for the people with which the mask wearer comes in contact. This is the major disconnect in the US. We assume the mask is for the wearer and does nothing for the wearer against aerosolized particles and individual virions. That part of mask wearing is true, but the mask is to block a percentage of particles exiting the wearer.
My personal speculation is that since Japan kept the spread of COVID-19 low in the first place due to mask compliance, there were fewer generations/mutations of the virus. Also contact tracing is easier when there aren't 3MM confirmed cases.
Well, we in the US can be excused for believing that masks protect us, the wearer, as we are told this every single day, despite it not being true at all. (Although I will wear one when I know I won't be able to social distance).
It keeps you from passing it on. Perhaps if that was the message instead, people would listen?
I strongly dislike doing what I know doesn't work. I've always assumed I will die of this malady. Tell me something I believe makes sense, and I'll comply. This country is full of people like that. Stop lying all the damn time and people are much more likely to listen.
masks "keep you from passing it on" has literally always been the message from day 1. no one in charge has ever said the mask protects the wearer. literally ever!
in fact, the initial reason we were told not to all wear masks en masse was because they specifically told us the mask won't protect you. they told us to only wear a mask if you're sick, to stop the spread to others. the reason the messaging changed and they told us to all wear masks en masse regardless was because they found out that many people were asymptomatically spreading the virus despite not "appearing" sick. they realized they couldn't determine who was and wasn't capable of spreading the virus based on overt symptomology, so they told everyone to wear masks just in case.
You are 100% correct in everything you say. I see you do a fine job filtering through all the crap yourself. That's fine. But what you just said, and what 90% of what I hear from the government and news today does not correlate.
They explicitly say that wearing a mask will save your life, and that's simply not true.
Belgium has been extremely aggressive with their attribution of deaths to COVID when compared to other countries. Every once in a while an article comes out that points out how COVID-linked deaths are probably much higher than reported in ___ country. That likely isn't the case in Belgium.
You don't have to wonder. You know Sweden has become a proxy for right wingers saying covd is nothing, and a target for left wingers saying we're all going to die.
This thread is nothing but a premature, sophomoric victory lap for a Biden-backer and those who engage in politics for the permissible bigotry it allows. What do I mean by that last bit? With politics (on both sides), you can demonize and reduce someone to a preferred caricature without consequence - say, a toothless, "moran"-yelling redneck who has no intelligence - and then ruthlessly tear that entire class of millions of people apart, and assert your supremacy over them.
If you did any of that based on race, origin, or sexual preference, you'd get rightly slaughtered in today's America. A lot of people - like the OP in this thread - still love to do it anyway. Politics give them a vehicle to do so.
The best thing I can say about this rant of yours is that it is...a collection of sentences.
8.0.1Calling someone a moron because of who they are genetically or by circumstance is bad. Telling someone the way they think is stupid is completely different. No one was born a democrat or republican.
Yea, BoDog saying that racism is comparable with disagreeing with someone politically...
One of the more stupid and ignorant things I've heard in a while.
8.0.1