The myth that "the cupboard was bare"
I couldn't remember most of the guys we had on defense in 2008, so I went and looked them up and what they were rated when they were being recruited. I just went along with the people that said things like "there wasn't much talent" and things like that. But I went and looked up the starters in 2008, and here they are:
Morgan Trent Senior - 4 stars
John Thompson Senior - 3 stars
Terrance Taylor Senior- 4 stars
Will Johnson Senior - 4 stars
Charles Stewart Senior - 3 stars
Donnavon Warren Sophomore - 5 stars
Tim Jamison Senior - 4 stars
Stevie Brown Junior - 4 stars
Troy Woolfolk Sophomore - 3 stars
Obi Ezeh Sophomore - 3 stars (although he was a running back in hs)
Jonas Mouton Sophomore - 4 stars
Brandon Graham Sophomore - 5 stars
I realize most of these guys didn't play in these last two years, but in 2008 the defense was still bad and there's no way it should have been that bad. It was defninitely piss poor coaching. I'd kill for that defense now! Can't wait for Hoke to restore order.
February 10th, 2011 at 4:17 PM ^
I really hope, you speak the same way, you write. I know, a guy from home, who speaks like this, and everything he says, is funny to hear.
I'll admit I'm a sarcastic and unforgiving asshole but I have to disagree with your assessment of the general level of pretense on this board. While we may be message board etiquette hounds, meme snobs, or ride the occasional poster out of town on a rail, we don't ask for much:
If you want to start a thread, take some time to think your argument through and decide whether it is something a. new and interesting and b. you can back with data, anecdotal evidence, or a link to something that enriches your post.
The reason this type of Michigan fan loiters around MGoBlog is because of the quality of content and the general ignorance/reactiveness/inaccuracies/ridiculousness of other online Michigan sports communities. If you want to hang out with the OP in Bolivia and debate a meme that was played-out two years ago, I suggest visiting espn.com, Yahoo! sports, cbssports.com, etc. What I don't suggest is walking into the local watering hole and calling all the regulars a bunch of pretentious assholes.
If stupid, tired, repetitive themes weren't posted over and over, you wouldn't see reactions like this. Also, if you don't want to see these reactions, check out the quality of responses on a Michigan message board, oh, say, anywhere else on the internet....
February 10th, 2011 at 4:49 PM ^
I have no problem getting corrected on my grammar. I'm an Economics major that was always better at math. If I had to guess, I would wager most of the people bashing me right now are terrible at math. Classless as they may be it's always interesting to see people attack like wolves when they see something they can gang up on. That to me speaks of a persons character or lack there of.
February 10th, 2011 at 4:52 PM ^
You call out the users of this site as being pretentious assholes and then talk about their lack of character...
SMH
February 10th, 2011 at 5:03 PM ^
Thank you for posting something reasonable. I don't like people who constantly bash other people, it's something I have always hated. I think free and open discussion is vital for the health and welfare of this site, which is so awesome. If I ofended anyone I do apologize, I'm generally a very nice guy. Again, I just hate always seeing others put down for an opinion on a sports topic. I'm new ot the site and I will claim forum ignorance, because apparently bashing ideas is quite common. It may be my idealistic nature but I just hate when people get attacked by a large group of people. If you constantly put someone down for haing ideas "inferior" to yours, you deserve to be called a pretentious asshole, because that's how you're acting.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:14 PM ^
you're probably wrong.
See, a large chunk of users on this board are Michigan students or alumni. Here at Michigan, most students need to be at least decent at math. You're either grasping at straws to make yourself feel better or your head is so inflated that not only are you convinced of your righteousness, but that you're better than your critics.
We aren't "ganging up" on you because you're good at math and we're not, even if that WAS true. You're getting destroyed because you made your sad delusions into a public comment.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:34 PM ^
I mean it in love. were true.
Edit: Haha- I wondered if I'd get negged for that...I was being playful since the mood had gotten so critical. Just so I'm not being a douche and actually slightly helpful, was is for past tense, were is for a possibility, whether now or in the future.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:26 PM ^
Where did I say you were ganging up on me because I was good at math? Not trying to upset anyone, I just want to know where I said that. My sole first post on this thread, was to defend the man's right to say what he did. You also have a right to say what you will but as a Michigan student/alum, I would hope you would hold yourself to a higher standard. Having had to work in Ohio for so long, I saw how angry and obnoxious OSU fans are. I just always held our fan base in higher regard, that was always capable of holding civil conversation.
Before I'm called an "emo" again for such a post, I served my country for years as an Officer in the US Army, "emo" isn't an attribute I've ever had. Defending others however, will always be an attribute I've had. Again, in real life I'm certain 98% of you aren't "pretentious assholes" but when people get treated like they're ignorant for something they've said, it comes off as pretentious.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:35 PM ^
but when people get treated like they're ignorant for something they've said, it comes off as pretentious.
Even if it's accurate? The OP made a ridiculous claim based on something that's been proven time and time again ON THIS BOARD to be inaccurate and borderline irrelevant. The OP is clearly not a newcomer, judging by his points. He should know better than to start a useless thread, let alone make possibly the weakest argument in defense of his claim.
Why are we out of line for pointing this out? If we're "pretentious assholes" for holding this board to higher standards than MLive, then leave. You won't be missed.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:51 PM ^
His argument has several holes, the rankings of the players isn't as important when over time they've proven to not be worthy of it. The only reason I replied, is when comments saying he should "never post again" or "delete this shit" started to appear. Now I agree the team would have been better had Rich Rod tried to scheme on offfense with the talent he had. But, I applaud Rich rod for installing his offense, under intense pressure to work with what he had. I'm not a Rodriguez basher, I did pull for his removal of this job though. I just felt that there was too great a divide in the Michigan base to be successful. I think he's a good man/innovative coach who just got caught in an unfortunate situation.
I have my own opinions on the 3-3-5, they aren't yours they are mine. The jury is probably still out on the 3-3-5. Boise and TCU run it and ran it well but one has to question how effective it would be against superior talent on a consistent basis. We can't answer that, because no major program runs a base 3-3-5.
February 10th, 2011 at 6:06 PM ^
Running ANY scheme against superior talent probably won't be very effective.
I'll trust Magnus on this because he's an actual coach, and he makes sense...any scheme can work at any level given the proper personnel and approach. 3-3-5 is just a formation...nothing more. San Diego State, Hoke's freaking former job, ran a 3-3-5 last year. TCU held off Wisconsin's monster running attack well enough to win the Rose Bowl.
Schemes are incredibly overrated. Personnel has a significantly higher impact on the quality of a team.
Anyways...
A couple of people posted things like "delete this shit" and now we're all pretentious assholes? That was really worth writing a whiny post?
February 10th, 2011 at 8:22 PM ^
he says that it isn't scheme that wins games, it's the execution of said scheme.
That being said, I think the 3-3-5 WOULD have worked...had Casteel been hired. You get someone who knows the scheme, can teach it, and has the players to run it, it will work.
February 10th, 2011 at 6:14 PM ^
The 3-3-5 is a formation that requires talent that Michigan did not have and that Rodriguez, for the most part, did not recruit. Any scheme on either side of the ball looks like sh*t if you don't have the talent to run it.
February 10th, 2011 at 6:49 PM ^
Recruit? Yes.
Develop? Due to attrition/getting kicked off team...no.
February 10th, 2011 at 7:33 PM ^
Fair statement. It did seem like the average stay on the team was about 15 minutes sometimes.....hard to develop players when they either won't or can't stay for various reasons.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:10 PM ^
Your free to never read this site, no one is forcing you to do so. If were all a bunch of assholes then leave, pretty simple.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
duly posbang'd
February 10th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^
"If every blind person in the world, gained a portion of their eye sight back, every time some bashed an opinion as not worth their time, we'd solve blindness in a month"
a) You've got some medical research experience, don't you?
c) Thanks for playing. No, really. You've made everyone's day.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:16 PM ^
But I love this:
"I'm a fan of pretentious assholes (see Steve Spurrier and Oscar Wilde)."
I absolutely love that. :)
February 10th, 2011 at 6:24 PM ^
I guess that, if it's me, the object lesson anyone should draw from these exchanges is this - the Mountaineer is dead, long live the Mountaineer. The reasons for either keeping or canning RR have been analyzed to death and conclusions have been drawn. Do we really need to revisit this about once every 36 hours or so?
February 10th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
Jesus Christ, man. Can we not get through a single fucking day without dragging RR through the mud?
You are aware that this supposed AWESOME defense was coached by Scott Shafer? the very same Scott Shafer who happens to be the DC behind the 5th best overall defense in college football this year?
Maybe, just maybe these kids quit on their coach. Maybe the upperclassmen were being coddled by the old regime and the players mentioned here didn't like having that taken away from them when they wen't years trying to earn it.
OP - you have to learn about team chemistry and leadership changes before just go blasting somebody.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:39 PM ^
You left out an even more likely possibility: consistently poor defensive position coaching and a scheme pushed from the top down that didn't work.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:30 PM ^
Forcing me to log in, just to neg...what a shame.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:34 PM ^
My ability to post comments is back.... and just in time to mention this:
February 10th, 2011 at 3:38 PM ^
I love you, Blue in South Bend. /gay
P.S. Nothing like a good FAIL post to bring the MGoVeterans out of their respective slumbers.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:44 PM ^
Looks like you figured out the work IE posting problem?
February 10th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
Ahhh, the happy days of being able to post at work on Rodriguez coaching change topics is back. Wait, those were not enjoyable times at all. WTF is going on here?
February 10th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^
if the cupboard was bare in 08, the only thing that is important is that it isn't now. Thanks Coach Rod.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^
I hope all these negs get implimented once Brian restores the site back up. Some people deserve punishment
February 10th, 2011 at 3:41 PM ^
massive amounts of points exchanging hands.
I think some of the negs have been given out quite liberally because they don't affect your own points.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:45 PM ^
In this case I'd sacrifice any and all of my points for my neg to count.
February 10th, 2011 at 7:43 PM ^
when/if they do come back and retroactively add or subtract...
here's a few more for ya... +1
February 10th, 2011 at 8:58 PM ^
If they all implement at once the site may crash again.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:38 PM ^
Desmond Howard vs Phil Simms. Who ya got?
February 10th, 2011 at 3:42 PM ^
Fuck Craig James.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
He was talking about the offence with Nick Sheridan as your starting quarterback. If that isn't bare, I don't know what is.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:46 PM ^
Amazing work, UMxWolverines. I'm glad we have someone like you with the sense and courage to write a few paragraphs and list our highly regarded recruits to disprove the lies propagated by Mispogon's in-depth analysis of the "Decimated Defense" and all of the statistical models of what went wrong the past few seasons.
Well done, you're hired.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:45 PM ^
This a fresh take on the subject and I'm very interested in hearing more but I have to interrupt you right now because OH GOD THE HINDENBURG!!
February 10th, 2011 at 8:52 PM ^
Best. Handle. Ever.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^
...when MGoBlog returns to MGoBlog normalcy. And we stop rehashing old arguments about RR. Was the "cupboard bare"? Some parts yes. Some parts no. Some parts "it doesn't matter". And now, add to that "RR is fired. Move on"
Fuck bare cupboards. I prefer my cupboards with copious amounts of foodstuffs plz.
As such, I move to banish the words "bare" and "cupboard" in conjunction with one another henceforth on this site. Everytime I see the term I cringe, not because it isn't true, but because it's one of the most overdiscussed topics in the last 3 years. May they burn in hell forever.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
this thread was dumb in 2008
it has not gotten any less dumb
February 10th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
Because players always live up to their recruiting rankings.....
February 10th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^
Thanks for not digging in your heels about what Rodriguez did or didn't do to keep the impact offensive talent with eligibility.
I don't want the site to crash again like during the coaching search.
February 10th, 2011 at 5:35 PM ^
Nate Volk, honest question. When you post your garbage as usual and someone blows said post apart you disappear? I don't think i've ever once seen you respond to someone who's responded to you? Like your OP post yesterday about RR being on Cowherd, you basically opened up the flood gates for a massive argument to break out (which it did) and where were you? Oh, you said "i gotta go". You are spineless, you post garbage everytime you post, and you were annoying as hell with your Jim Harbaugh bullshit. Im happy we didn't hire JH just because you wanted him so badly and seemed so confident this was his dream job. If I only could have seen your face when you found out he wasn't coming, must have been the worst day of your life.
I don't hate anyone, i've never met you, don't know you. But if I ever did I know I wouldn't like you and would probably fight you. You suck, I hate you Nate Volk!
February 10th, 2011 at 3:54 PM ^
I feel like a lot of the content on this blog over the last three years speaks directly to your comment there, including about 100,000 words from me on the subject.
About 99 percent of cupboard talk refers to this:
-
QB:
Threet, Sheridan -
RB:
Minor,C.Brown,McGuffie,Shaw,Minor,McGuffie, WE GET IT ANGRY RB HATING GOD! - FB: Moundros
-
SE:
Mathews,Babb, Rogers -
FL:
Hemingway,Stonum, Savoy -
SL:
T.Robinson, Odoms -
TE:
Butler,Massey, Koger -
LT:
Zirbel, Ortmann -
LG: McAvoy - man that sucks,
Ortmann, McAvoy...ARGH!!!!,Schilling,Ferrara,Huyge,Folding Lawn Chair,Recycling Bin,Broken Headset,DAMMIT!!! McAvoy -
C:
Molk, Moosman -
RG:
Moosman, Ferrara -
RT:
Schilling,Huyge, Dorrestein
Defensively, it's the cupboard containing the next generation that was being referred to. Defensive back was especially left in atrocious shape. As Brian noted at the intro to my first DD article, in 2009:
Here are the members of the secondary in the recruiting classes that comprise this year's team:
2005: None. (Harrison, Sears, Richards all gone.)
2006: None. (Mouton, Brown moved to LB.)
2007: Warren, Woolfolk, Williams, Rogers. (Chambers gone.)
2008: JT Floyd (Smith moved to LB, Cissoko is gone.)
I bolded the guys left by Lloyd who were able to contribute a minimum of one non-soul-crushing season in the defensive backfield (including safety) after 2008. In '08 you add a final year of Trent (who admittedly didn't give his all for RR), whatever you could wring out of Harrison, and Charles Stewart, a vintage Michigan State defensive back who like most Michigan State defensive backs was beaten soundly and repeatedly by white receivers named "White."
Do the same for Linebacker:
2005: None. (Logan burned RS, special teamer)
2006: Mouton, Brown (Patilla, Mixon gone, B.Graham to DE)
2007: Herron (Panter, Evans gone)
2008: Demens, Fitzgerald (B.Smith, Hill, Witherspoon gone)
At linebacker, I blame RR and GERG for the regression/lack of development for Mouton and Ezeh, but part of the reason there wasn't another option to Ezeh for his whole career is that when faced with upcoming linebacker armageddon all Lloyd got was a JUCO and two flier recruits. Herron and Marrell Evans were sign-and-hopes: Evans played some but was worse than Mouton, and when not injured Herron is an effective spell for Roh but not much more. Mixon left before RR's time. Patilla's injury was nobody's fault. Hill was an RR recruit who showed up on campus and then left, and Witherspoon was Lloyd's version of Demar Dorsey's story. Brandon Smith moved from safety then left the team mid-'09. Ultimately, it was obvious in 2007 that linebacker was, at best, going to be populated with position switchers and freshman, since the only functional LBs recruited in four years were brought in as safeties.
On the defensive line, even though attrition was already high, they were doing their job: Graham through 2009, RVB and Martin through 2011, and a spattering of 3-/low-4 stars (Banks, Sagesse, Patterson, Woods, Ferrara, Kates, Helmuth, German, Butler, McLaurin, McKinney, Walton) from whom you could reasonably expect some depth, plus one year left of Jamison, Taylor and Will Johnson - though you have to give RR and Barwis credit for those last two and Graham making huge strides after shedding pizza weight.
Okay?
Last time we're going over that. From now on, you're responsible for knowing the material that has already been covered.
February 10th, 2011 at 3:59 PM ^
(teasing)
February 10th, 2011 at 4:08 PM ^
And one more thing, look at the number of seniors in this year's class. Jebus! America has a huge math problem. This idiocracy is not sustainable.