Rivals take on Michigan's new recruiting staff
You got me. I thought this was gonna be what OSU and MSU thought about the changes.
Same here.
Also can we get at least a brief overview of what was said for those of us who can’t listen to this at work?
Summary: It was inadequate before. Now it is better.
Terrific. But better recruiting wouldn't have helped against MSU, and probably other opponents I have successfully blocked from my memory. So I hope those other problems, whatever they are, have also been addressed.
I disagree. Having a couple of 4-5 star CBs (or at least more seasoned guys) likely would have made a huge difference in that game. We were unable to man cover and that was basically the game (not that we didn't fail in several other areas also).
And yet MSU had like three 4 star players on their entire roster. We did not have less talent than anyone we lost to.
Having better talent than MSU isn’t what is being refuted. You said better recruiting wouldn’t have helped. Two separate things.
I think what evenyoubrutus is getting at is coaching lost the game, not the talent on the field. And he’s not wrong.
Perhaps we need such better talent that a potato could have the headset and clipboard and we'd still win.
Exactly. Look at LSU basketball. Bring in a couple NBA talents and the coach can twiddle his thumbs all practice and get into the tourney comfortably.
It's never one thing that "lost them game." No one said recruiting was the only or even biggest reason we lost, but it seems silly so refute that having better players may have led to a victory.
A better DT, a better CB, and a QB that had more than just raw talent would have all been extremely helpful in beating MSU. Some of that is most certainly recruiting.
Having a couple of 4-5 star CBs (or at least more seasoned guys) likely would have made a huge difference in that game
Or developing and retaining the ones we already had would be nice too. St Juste, Sims, Perry, Seldon, & DGW were already recruited 4-stars on the roster that didn't play much against MSU, not to mention the plethora of 4 and 5-star safeties. Thomas would have been nice too and probably single handedly would have won UM that game, but Covid opt outs and all. But, instead of being able to retain, develop, and play any of these 4-star CBs we played Gray & Green, neither of which are 4-stars. Personally I think Green developed as the season went on, but Gray is awful. So, the questions are....should we have let St. Juste go? Could we have done more to keep Sims around? And, why couldn't Perry in particular since he's older, but also Seldon and DGW, as higher ranked recruits, beat out Gray or Green? IMO this is not a recruiting issue. It has to be either a talent ID, scheme, attrition, or development issue and probably a little bit of all but I'd lean mostly to the latter two. UMs retention and development has been really bad under JH, particularly the 2017 class what was that year's juniors. Thomas opted out. JKP didn't pan out. St. Juste had his injury issue, but transferred and turned out well at Minnesota. Sims transferred. Was he a miss in recruiting or did we fail to develop him? And, Perry hasn't shown much yet. The freshman get a pass on the development issue, although many expected to see Seldon this year based on his profile and skillset. If any one of those guys is playing up to their recruiting profile and playing in that game UM wins. Would one high 4-star or 5-star have fixed the issue? Well, that's exactly what Thomas was so maybe that extra guy would have opted out too. Would 2-3 more high 4-star or 5-star guys have helped? Well, certainly the more higher rated recruits you have the better. But, one would certainly think five 4-star CBs and seven 4 and 5-star safeties recruited during this time would have been enough to stop Rockly Lombardi and MSU's vaulted passing offense.
Michigan's recruiting staff was was understaffed and not quite as competent as others like OSU, Alabama, Texas etc. Harbaugh has done a great job of creating a top notch and modern recruiting staff from the admin level and coaching level that wasn't exactly there in the past, especially for a top program.
The BPONE take on this is that it took him 6 years (going into year 7) for him to figure out what is necessary for a modern recruiting staff
Well, he was successful at Stanford doing it "his" way and he probably thought he could duplicate that. But things change quickly in college football.
At least Harbaugh is trying to adapt. I'll hold my applause till it works, but he is making big adjustments.
Harbaugh may also have had the same blind spot that everyone with a connection to the program has, and assumed that to some extent Michigan would recruit itself (especially if he's winning, which at first, he was). That, combined with his own NFL pedigree and the idea that selling the NFL might be his best differentiating advantage in recruiting, may have led him to focus on bringing in coaches with NFL connections* and selling getting ready for the League by playing for coaches who know what that level of football is really like, rather than hiring coaches who are college-level recruiters first and foremost, and can recruit for Michigan itself and not just an NFL future to follow.
I too have to credit him with realizing none of that was working and making the radical change that was apparently needed. It's fine to be salty that it took so long for him to figure it out, but how many leaders never figure out that what always worked for them in the past isn't working anymore? Despite the uncomfortable rebuild ahead (again!), the plan itself now at least makes sense. Let's hope it works!
*Don Brown excepted of course, but that reads pretty clearly as a counter to OSU that unfortunately OSU stayed one step ahead of.
And Harbaugh still tried to innovate at Michigan. We have mostly forgotten about them now, but everywhen celebrated satellite camps and international trips when he started them. Those were potentially good ideas that could have helped Michigan recruit itself. Unfortunately, the SEC and the NCAA squashed the former and the latter never produced the recruiting effect that Harbaugh expected.
I’m still pissed about the satellite camps. Even if we weren’t hauling in a ton of kids it was good for the kids and it opened up relationships for us. But FFS the NCSECAA can’t let anything happen that upsets their apple art at all, and the B1G for all of its money can’t seem to swing any influence at all.
When we got shut out of Ohio, was when we had to recruit differently. Carr had a good thing going and would land tons of great Ohio players and sneakily get very good players without a need for this new big effort needed. We would get our share of players who thrived in the rivalry, who wanted to play in the rivalry, so the old way worked... but we get none of them now and now have to make a huge effort getting players elsewhere, like from the west coast who burn out of the program.
Get back into Ohio in a real way like Hoke did, and you'll then see the recruiting fall the way we want it.
I don't buy the crap about us being "shut out" or "locked out" of Ohio. There are plenty of really good Ohio players every year that OSU won't or can't take. My belief is that our staff, for whatever reason, has just not made an effort or priority to recruit Ohio. And that's just poor judgement. A state so close to Michigan with a lot of talent and kids that get the rivalry, should be a no-brainer. I guess not.
Well too bad you are wrong. Tressels plan was exactly that, and the tail end of Carr it started. We used to get some of their best recruits, guys like Crable, Burgess etc. Then in came RR and it was over. It's these players who have more skin than anyone in the rivalry, and we have none, instead we get California guys who leave after a year. Unless you think it's a massive coincidence that our program slide began at that exact time. Note that Harbaughs greatest success was with Hokes players, the best of them were Ohio takes that we got, like Charlton, Worlmley, Gedeon, etc. Then that was compounded by the top MICHIGAN players going to Ohio, further weakening our program.
If you were a coach at an Ohio high school and let Michigan recruit one of your kids away you were essentially ostracized from access to Ohio State football. Games/coaching clinics, you name it.
Well, he was successful at Stanford doing it "his" way and he probably thought he could duplicate that. But things change quickly in college football.
At least Harbaugh is trying to adapt. I'll hold my applause till it works, but he is making big adjustments.
I get all that and can see it could be true. But, the real JH problem at UM has been development and retention, not recruiting. If recruits played up to their recruiting profiles and stuck around on par with average programs UM would never had gone 2-4 last year. Instead the 2017 class got decimated and we've seen time after time top recruits leave like Solomon, Singleton, Anthony, Vilain, McCaffrey, Sims, Black, Muhammad, Milton, Charbonnet, Jackson, etc. There seems like a logical reason for many, but at some point the sheer volume has to be a red flag of an overarching JH problem in either IDing the right guys for the program, retention, and/or development.
Uh, 2-4 because how many players opted out??
Uh, 2-4 because how many players opted out??
You put a question mark behind that with a questioning face, which leads me to believe you are implying I said that and you aren't sure about it. But, I didn't say that. I don't think UM would have been drastically better by simply not having opt outs. Having Thomas & Collins would might have won us the MSU game, but wouldn't have changed the others.
If hypothetically Sims and St. Just were still here and they actually got developed on par with their recruiting profiles losing Thomas would not have been as big of a problem. If Solomon was still here and was developed on par with his recruiting profile, the interior line would not have been a problem. If Vilain was developed on par with his recruiting profile losing Hutch would not have been a problem. If Milton, Peters, or McCaffrey were there and/or developed on par with their recruiting the QB position would not have been a problem. If Hudson was retained and developed losing Mayfield would not have been a problem. See where this is going? My point is UM recruited plenty of 4 and 5-star guys at all of the positions that were a problem last year. If they were retained and developed UM would not have gone 2-4.
Terrific.
Let me know when this translates into success.
I'm an old man. I'm confused! What's my name? Could you take me home? When was Michigan successful???
Is that you Joe?
I misinterpreted differently.
Michigan just announced another hire to the Recruiting Department as well. Sydney Sims is coming from Notre Dame and will be Director of Strategic Communication and Branding. She will run social media, so hopefully we see an improvement there!
First thing of note for Sydney........It is Whittley, not Whitley
Good thing that it's not Hedley Lamarr!
OMG, this movie is a classic. Mel Brooks is pure comedic genius ?
I must admit I was not previously familiar with the "wuddup doe" exhortation, but this is probably why I was not considered for the position.
Thank you, Urban Dictionary, for the continued enlightenment!
How does Scott Frosts mom feel about our recruiting staff?
Aren't we to assume she is saying the old one wasn't big enough but now it is bigger so she is more satisfied with it?
I had to point this, but I felt dirty while I was doing it.
Cheers.
Not really sure how she feels about Scott Frost at this point
The part I don’t understand is this. Greg Mattison recruited with urban Meyer at Florida. Josh Gattis came from fully operational Alabama, Ed Wariner was at Ohio State with Urban. There’s a lot of coaches who have seen how it’s done at other places. Did they not give Harbaugh any insight on how things were structured at Ohio St and Alabama? I’m talking only structure, not bag men, academics etc. Just the organizational side. And if he didn’t listen or pick their brain on that, why not? That is deeply concerning if you have the answers to the test and choose to ignore them to do it the hard way.
That is deeply concerning if you have the answers to the test and choose to ignore them to do it the hard way.
I've always thought that one trait Harbaugh has in common with Schembechler is a stubborn belief that he knows best how to do things, other opinions be damned.
Another trait they share is the ability to recognize—albeit belatedly—when something isn't working, and the willingness to make changes. Both were/are hidebound, but just up to a point.
I suspect Ditka was much the same way.
Spot on. Michigan football reminds me of a story I heard in Sunday school about a man who died in a flood. An evacuation order was given for a small coastal town during a terrible storm. The whole town could be washed away in a flood. However one man refused to leave and said God would save him. His neighbor begged him to get in the car and leave town but the man refused. God will save me. The storm became worse and the man was now on the second floor of his house because the first floor was flooded. A Good Samaritan in a boat came to the man’s house and tired to get him to leave. God will save me he said. Finally the man was on the roof of his house and the water was still rising. A helicopter came and they tired to get the man to grab the rope ladder and climb to safety. God will save me he said. The water kept rising and the man died. When he arrived in heaven God was surprised to see him. You aren’t supposed to he here for another 30 years said God. The man said, I died in a flood but I thought you were going to save me. To which God replied, I sent you a car, a boat, and a helicopter. I did everything I could.
You definitely have a point with Mattison, but man Warriner was a recruiting train wreck at OSU. They had to pretty much hide him from recruits and pass linemen off to other assistants when he was at OSU. Excellent OL coach, terrible recruiter.
This is a pretty lazy take. Harbaugh has been increasing the emphasis on recruiting ever since he arrived at Michigan and the latest staffing changes are a continuation of that.
Here's what was written about a year ago in response to previous criticism from Rivals:
My take is Harbaugh thought his name and pedigree along with the Michigan name would be all he would need to bring the recruits in. For a few years that worked somewhat and recruiting hasn't been totally atrocious as far as rankings. Where I believe it to be abysmal is in 1) a recruiting plan to keep depth, 2) attrition as we are losing more players to the portal than are coming in, 3) what we do with the recruits once they are on campus. The results suggest they aren't being coached up.
Some indication that paper work wasn't filed (by Dudek?) in the case of Xavier Worthy at 15:40 minute mark. Insight or speculation?
I hope we get a complete "Tell All" take of the Worthy story in the next few years. He probably cannot say specifically what happened right now, but I'm sure it'll eventually come out.
Neglecting to file paper work in a timely fashion for your top recruit is a huge fuckup and if Dudek is truly guilty then it's entirely understandable why he'd be encouraged to leave, but why would it lead a highly-coveted recruit to completely bail on attending a particular institution? If Worthy had truly wanted to play for Michigan, not being able to early enroll wouldn't have been a deal-killer.
Worthy was close to Giles Jackson, and once Jackson decided to leave, that prompted Worthy to do something he already wanted to do anyhow—decommit from Michigan.
I'm not overly up to date on the Worthy situation up there, but wasn't he already like on campus? I mean a top recruit on campus ready to get to work finds out that the school didn't file paperwork properly and he now has to go home and wait for 6 months isn't going to sit well. Doesn't matter what school it is.