OT? Larry Nassar...
I've been debating with myself about whether to post my thoughts on this. But what the hell. I need to get this off my chest.
If possible, this is worse than Sandusky. We are talking about molestation of hundreds of women...some just children. We are talking about 20 years of smoke that was swept aside by an army of enablers. We have a coach (female, no less) who answers claims of molestation by saying..."you do not understand the treatment." and then continues to send her athletes for "treatment." We have a national track program turning a blind eye. For 20 years! And continuing to employ the man as team trainer. And yet, even with all the recent disclosures and Nassar's guilt in a court of law, this doesn't come close to the Sandusky level of notoriety. Is it somehow less egregious because female children were victims? Or less egregious because it was heterosexual and not homosexual? Or because it is track instead of football?
We have had half hearted investigations held by university counsel. Investigations which did not produce a report! For which there can be no FOIA requests because of attorney client privilege. One of the responsibilities of leadership is to actually take responsibility. This has happened on the watch of Luanna Simon and Mark Hollis. It doesn't matter if they think they can hide behind plausible deniability and somehow maintain their high six figure salaries. Graham Spanier at Penn State was fired and was convicted of a felony. At the bare minimum Simon and Hollis need to resign and if they refuse to be fired with cause. Perhaps they should consider Hari Kari for the sake of their honor but they have no honor.
I am not so naive or blind to assume this could not happen in Ann Arbor. It can happen anywhere. I hope that Mark Schlissel, Warde Manual and the rest of the people with responsibility for the safety of their community are shining light in every dark corner and have the courage to address whatever they might find. I hope.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:07 PM ^
But wonder if this subject has been sort-of discussed quite a bit already here.
New to report is the USA gymnastics team has lifted the 100K NDA thread from McKayla Mayroney today so she is now free to testify against him. Wondered how long that would take them to do this given how bad of a look it was on all levels to keep in enforced.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:13 PM ^
who volunteered to pay the $100k so she could speak.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:56 PM ^
this is a crowdfunding deal I can get behind, if it were to become one.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:27 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 5:12 PM ^
The client enjoys the protection of attorney-client privilege. The client can waive that privilege. In other words, MSU can release any report or documents it wants to, and refusing to release could be interpreted as MSU believing that any report or information MSU provided its attorneys could be detrimental to the school.
I'm not saying that MSU would be wise to waive the privilege, but attorney-client privilege isn't some magical thing that prohibits MSU from releasing any documents.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
but is a useful excuse to say their hands are tied....
January 17th, 2018 at 5:30 PM ^
MSU as a whole might be better off releasing more information. However, its leaders have a serious need to cover their asses, so it ain't happening. Not until courts determine this all falls under FOIA.
The most disturbing part about all of this is that MSU is NOT claiming they were unaware of what Nassar was doing, they're claiming that his superiors didn't think what he was doing was illegal and therefore had no obligation to report the allegations to anybody else. Strampel, Klages (who was not his superior), the other doctors (one of whom removed files from office after he was suspended) and anyone else who knew deserves just as much blame as Nassar himself. We may never find out who really knew, and when, because of the approach MSU is taking. It's a giant fucking coverup and any claim to the contrary is a fucking lie.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:42 PM ^
I think a large majority of this board and the UofM community on general would be storming the gates for resignations.
WTF is up with MSU?
January 17th, 2018 at 7:53 PM ^
To be fair, a lot of MSU people (even RCMB) think Simon and Hollis' heads should be on platters, however the outcry is muted in proportion to the comparative lack of national attention this case has gotten vs the Penn State Awful Thing.
The biggest part of this is that PSU was tied into football and one of its icons - Paterno. Which is the real tragedy - it takes something adjacent to one of our country's sacred cows for the nation in aggregate to take notice. Shit, you could even argue that our clusterfuck regarding Shane Morris' concussion got a similar amount of media coverage as the Nassar tragedy - while both awful they're not on the same planet of awfuldom but M football is still a household name, last decade notwithstanding.
January 17th, 2018 at 10:00 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 11:53 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
Look up Edwin Edwards and the secret to success in politics. I'm afraid his opinion might be the exact reason the Penn State situation got so much more attention, which is something you touched on in the original post.
Yeah, I get it that football is exponentially more popular than gymnastics, but we are also talking about some FAMOUS Olympic victims here, which you would think would tilt the attention bar back a bit. Not that they are any more worthy of our attention than the poor kids in the Penn State thing, but you would think the fact that there are reasonably well known athletes who were violated would draw a ton of attention to this case.
January 17th, 2018 at 7:04 PM ^
I feel like that is the *only* reason there is any national attention on this case - the famous olympians - and why USGA is taking more heat than MSU on this (not enough there either, but some).
January 17th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 5:18 PM ^
I dunno man, I read the ESPN stuff and there was a link to another story on ESPNW about another abuse case in gymnastics - this one where a coach was essentially raping several of his gymnasts. What is constantly striking me about these stories is that all of these coaches and high ranking officials in US Gymnastics seem to ALL be men. Isn't that kind of...weird? Is this something rooted in gymnastics in general? I remember watching the Olympics as a young kid and thinking it was odd seeing all of these old men coaching young girls and these huge hugs they would give each other after basically every routine. I'm not sayin' its a thing, but it seems off to me.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:26 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 5:31 PM ^
following the Sandusky story breaking. That meant the PSU Board couldn't sit around and think "well, we can take a bit of time addressing Paterno, Spanier & Curley." No, they couldn't.
The MSU situation doesn't have that dynamic.
I think that also plays a factor in terms of the different coverage of the stories. If the Sandusky story had broken in February 2012, it's still a big news story but doesn't burn at quite the same temperature.
And the fact that the PSU story burned at red-hot temperatures in the beginning --- it ensured it would be a huge news story all the way through its conclusion.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:32 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 6:17 PM ^
I agree with this.
Also note that finally, finally this is getting national media traction. Because of Paterno the Sandusky scandal got national attention right away.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:33 PM ^
Some of these gymnasts are national heroes. I'll bet there are more Americans who recognize the names of medal-winning olympic gymnasts than know who Joe Patero was.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:41 PM ^
They're big names. But: 1. Paterno was a much bigger name. 2. Crucially, those names have come out in small pieces well into the scandal. Paterno was at issue from the beginning, and was fired midseason as a result. For equivalent impact this would have had to come out right after Makayla Maroney had her famous podium moment, forcing the Karolyis to resign before the Olympics were even over.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:40 PM ^
Can you qauntify claim #1? Sounds like opinion.
Claim #2 is also only opinion. You did not demonstrate either so why did you claim such?
I do not see how you reached your equivalent impact. Enlighten me.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^
You want him to "quantify" Paterno's name recognition vs. an Olympic gymnast's name recognition? What, he should find a national poll comparing the two names? You're being a contentious prick on an otherwise civil thread that discusses a horrifyingly difficult topic.
If you were one of my children, I'd tell you to stop talking until you could enter the conversation without continually scolding and attacking everyone else.
January 17th, 2018 at 9:29 PM ^
So your post is mere opinion, such as mine? Glad yours carries more weight in your mind.
January 17th, 2018 at 10:08 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 9:27 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 10:13 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 7:05 PM ^
I'll disagree with this contention. I believe there are hundreds of thousands (probably millions) more people that would instantly recognize Paterno than could recognize an Olympic gymnast gold medalist.
Football is a yearly sport with almost 24/7 coverage across the entire country. Gymnastics is a once every 4 year thing with coverage that runs with the Olympics. And yes, I know its competitions are held regularly... But it is nowhere close to football in popularity, coverage, attendance, recognition, and any other metric you care to think up.
January 18th, 2018 at 10:13 AM ^
That was a big factor. Another big factor was the idea that Sandusky's behavior could, in no way, be deemed professional or appropriate in any way, shape or form. There was simply no way to hand wave it away once you knew about it. At least some of Nasser's behavior was condoned by other professionals in the field, which is mind blowing, but it did happen. I don't know if they just didn't recognize the context in which he was doing the things that he did or if they felt pressure to exonerate the man, but for whatever reason, that did happen. That was probably the chief factor in allowing it to continue.
I wish that I understood the psychology behind institutionalized sex abuse cover-ups. The Catholic Church, Penn State, and now this. Coaches were complicit. Adminstrators were complicit, and even parents were complicit. It has happened now it such a wide vareity of institutions and such a huge number of people that nobody should doubt that it could happen at U of M or your employer. This has involved too many individuals to hand wave it away is just a few people being extremely evil.
But was Sandusky's abuse of boys vs. girls a factor too? Yes, it probably was.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:32 PM ^
Media seem to be less-concerned with the sexual abuse of girls by men than the sexual abuse of boys by men. That, millions in legal counsel, and MSU's state-run media seem to be keeping this quieter than it should be.
I'll skip comparing Nassar/Sandusky or their crimes; in doing so inevitably one will be somewhat let off the hook by being deemed "not as bad as."
January 17th, 2018 at 5:39 PM ^
I was a little coy about it in my previous post, but yah, the reason is that its girls. The media doesn't care as much about it because it is girls. If this was abuse of boys, they would be calling for executions.
Age may play into it as well--the fact that it isn't 8 & 9 year-olds plays into it as well IMO. The younger the children abused, the more the media outrage tends to be.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:53 PM ^
Tuesday there was a woman who said the abuse started when she was 6, and another woman who said she was 8.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:18 PM ^
Strike the age argument. I was only aware of the older kids. Which goes to show the lack of media attention on this issue.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:58 PM ^
In the OTL article (http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/22046031/michigan-state-university-doctor-larry-nassar-surrounded-enablers-abused-athletes-espn), the first woman to testify, Kyle Stevens, stated that Nassar started preying on her when she was 6.
No matter the age of my child, but even more so when they are completely innocent at age 6, that would cause me guilt knowing that I allowed that to happen to my child. Kyle stated that her father understanding that he had a part in allowing the abuse to happen was detrimental to her dad eventually committed suicide.
Male or female, I'm not sure why there isn't more outrage
January 17th, 2018 at 9:43 PM ^
This is incredibly sad commentary and probably true.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:36 PM ^
The plain fact is that this story emerged slowly, without the blockbuster chaos and attention that occurred at PSU. By the time the enormity of it became clear it was already "old news" and did not yet have any "big names" involved.
Sandusky was a reasonably big name from the get-go, and of course was closely associated with Paterno, a bigger name at the time than anyone involved with Nassar. And the big names with Nassar have only trickled out as it is. And the suddenness of it, with Paterno getting fired in the middle of the season, only increased the attention. For equivalent shock this story would have had to have broken at the Olympics.
It's worth remembering that there have been scandals in other sports that people barely remember. Hockey, for example. Remember Graham James, who abused Sheldon Kennedy and Theo Fleury (and others who have not been named)? Thought not. I had to look it up. He wasn't a big name. That and the slow trickle effect has a lot to do with it.
January 17th, 2018 at 5:46 PM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 9:01 PM ^
and then the healing can begin.
///sss
January 17th, 2018 at 9:47 PM ^
sooooo glad PSU was able to win a couple fucking football game and magically ease THEIR own pain.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:00 PM ^
I'll never, ever understand the way that people in positions of authority act to protect the institution instead of the victims. Happened with the Catholic Church, with Penn State, and now at MSU and USA Gymnastics. If you're someone in a position like Hollis or Simon, having your institution endure some shitty press and acting boldly against the perpetrator of the wrongdoing is far better for your legacy then trying to cover up the story.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:16 PM ^
if they had just done what they should have years ago I would be proud of them taking immediate action and handling it appropriately. And instead the easy decision of doing what's right is rarely happening.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:01 PM ^
i can give a couple hundred million reasons why ($)
January 17th, 2018 at 6:08 PM ^
involved in this and I truly hope someone posts something about this every day until reasonable levels of truth and justice happen. The MSU coach should be in jail and I can't envision how the gymnastics program should not be sending multiple people that drafted the ND agreement but then didn't stop him from continuing to see other patients.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:19 PM ^
on Facebook. I mean, this could be the worst case in history of such beastliness and--in the midst of the MeToo thing it is getting no attention. I'm the father of a young teenager, not a vengeful person, but I feel incredible indignation and helplessness when I contemplate what these often incredibly young women went through.
January 17th, 2018 at 7:57 PM ^
January 18th, 2018 at 10:39 AM ^
January 17th, 2018 at 6:25 PM ^
Outside of the obvious that Paterno was revered as a national figure, the financials of the situations are another big difference.
PSU football alone makes around $70 million a year now. With the Sandusky ordeal, the narrative was that they were ignoring the abuse in order to protect their cash cow.
Gymnastics, on the other hand, actually costs the university a lot in order to run. It actually would've been beneficial for MSU from a fiscal stance to shut the program down all together. It paints a picture that MSU had no benefit to keep or cover for him (while largely ignoring the fact that they were protecting their reputation and covering their asses from lawsuits).
In comparison of these situations it's very unfortunate, but the "greed is the root of all evil " report will always be pushed even though sometimes people are just flat out depraved.
January 17th, 2018 at 6:32 PM ^
I have no idea how many people knew what was going on or to what extent, but I would bet my life that there are many people who are culpable to some extent. For me this isn't so much about MSU. I have many friends who went there and most are more disgusted about this debacle than I am. This is about individual human beings putting themselves and their institution ahead of doing what, all would agree, would have been the right thing.
How dare Klages tell girls that they just don't understand medical procedures. Is she a fucking medical professional? Did she go and meet with the rat-faced piece of shit and ask "hey, WTF is up with digitally penetrating my gymnast?" I suspect not. She is not even fit for hell. Same for the trainer....A goddamned trainer...who was told of his outrageous behavior and turned a blind eye. Pretty sure her, likely significant, training did not include how to penetrate a woman to make her back pain go away.
WLNS has had a live feed in the court for the duration of the victim statements. Everyone is minimizing the number of those affected by this horror show. Parents, friends, brothers, sisters, spouses and children are all negatively impacted. The full number on collateral damage is in the thousands.
I can only hope that a very real investigation comes and holds anyone who knew something and did nothing accountable. They are out there, and there are more than a couple.
January 17th, 2018 at 8:03 PM ^
Yes, but where is the outrage from alums and current students? Where are the mass campus protests? They should be large and daily. Its been said before, but Michigan students and alums protested Brandon, which was a laughably less serious set of circumstances than this.
Brian was going to run for regent. Where is the MSU rage to oust this president, AD, and supporters?