Good SI article on Urban Statement
I found a good SI article (link) on the Urban statement from yesterday. It's a Rosenberg article for those who care, but he brings up a few good points that most defending Urban ignore.
- Why do we believe Urban about properly reporting? If he lied at media days, why wouldn't he lie now? If he didn't report the incident he's done regardless so why not lie to try and save his job?
- If Urban knew in 2015, why was Smith not fired or disciplined then?
- If they had a reason to keep Smith in 2015, why was he fired in July? He wasn't fired immediately after his trespassing charge (a statement was released the day after by OSU and he wasn't fired), only after the 2015 stuff went public. The timeline there doesn't work out.
- This is more my point, but Smith also hasn't been found guilty for 2015 or the trespassing incidents. So why would a trespassing arrest be enough to fire him without guilt but that wasn't the case in 09 or 15?
I sorta thought the same thing. It seemed like an “obviously I’m getting fired, but I’m going to make sure the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed so I get my money” thing to me. But who knows? *shrug*
I'd go one step further.
He's saying that if they have cause to fire him, non-reporting to Title IX office, then they have the same cause to fire Gene Smith. And if they look, they will probably find others.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:59 AM ^
Why are people still citing title IX when it is not applicable in this case? Multiple attorneys for NCAA related items have been clear about that. I’m honestly curious.
August 4th, 2018 at 11:23 AM ^
"The section in his (Meyer's) amended contract states that Meyer must report to Title IX coordinator (Kellie Brennan) or deputy Title IX coordinator for athletics (Janine Oman) of 'any known violations of Ohio State’s Sexual Misconduct Policy.'
That would include 'sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking” involving any student, faculty or staff or that is in connection with a university sponsored activity or event.' According to the contract, a 'known violation' means one that the coach is aware of or has 'reasonable cause to believe is taking place or may have taken place.' ”
So what else you got?
August 4th, 2018 at 11:30 AM ^
Ok. So you’re having trouble distinguishing the difference between title IX and the title IX coordinator. For the purposes of his contact that is who he would need to report to but it is NOT a title IX issue. Do you see the difference? Now that title IX is set aside, let’s talk about the sexual misconduct policy that he would need to report and he would report that to the title IX coordinator. That policy only covers events that happen on campus or at campus sponsored events. Once again, not applicable to a private residence.
I’ve got the facts as to what it covers and title IX if that’s what you were asking by what else I have.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:20 PM ^
Are you being purposely obtuse or just trolling?
I clearly stated his obligation was to report to the Title IX office. If the office were screwing up reports then that would become a Title IX issue.
You've completely misrepresented OSU's sexual misconduct penalty by omitting a critical "or"'
Directly from Meyer's new contract:
"Coach shall promptly report to Ohio State's Title IX Athletics any known violations of Ohio State's Sexual Misconduct Policy (including, but not limited to, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking) that involve any student, faculty or staff or that is in connection with a university sponsored activity or event"
August 4th, 2018 at 12:33 PM ^
The word "or" is crucial in that sentence.
OSU fans want to turn 'or' into 'and.'
August 4th, 2018 at 12:44 PM ^
The contractual language was designed to protect faculty and students. The ruling in Colorado would seem to indicate there is no obligation to protect the ex wife of a faculty member. The extension was signed in April and any events prior to April would fall under his 2015 contract. If it was reported it’s a mute point, we shall see.
One way you protect faculty and students is by reporting suspected cases of sexual assault committed by staff members that work with them. That's elementary stuff and that's why OSU had it written that way, just in case the CU case was unclear.
Ex post facto clauses are permitted in contracts. It may sound unfair, but he had a lawyer negotiating his contract and explaining the clauses. He didn't have to sign. Images of his contract have been posted which show the new clause applies retroactively, even before his tenure at OSU. His full contract is larger than the version made publicly available and no one has officially confirmed the relevant wording.
Yes, it's a moot point if he properly reported the previous incidents. One thing we can agree on.
There is a difference between what’s legally requirement to avoid suit from the abused person (Courtney very likely doesn’t have standing), what’s legally required to avoid Department of Ed. penalties or investigations (unlikely to happen, especially with the current Department of Ed), and what OSU requires employees to do.
As an attorney that works at a university, I just completed our mandatory and annual Title IX training. I can say confidently that nearly every university has a policy that employees have to report to the Title IX coordinator what they call “intimate violence” if EITHER the victim or perpetrator is an employee of the university. The policy goes beyond the legal requirements. Myers is obviously in violation. A non millionaire employee is getting shit canned, no questions asked for this. E.g., I would be fired so fast I wouldn’t know what hit me if I did some shit like this. But, special rules for football and all...
Yeah, that's what I got out of that statement as well. He basically threw the AD under the bus. Seemed like a desperation "I want my 40 million dollars" move.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:11 AM ^
Also protects himself from the NCAA and have a nice story for another AD/Pres so he can coach elsewhere.
There's this take from Deadspin:
"There really is only one method of reporting that lets you off the hook, legally speaking: reporting directly to the Title IX office. Talking to your boss does not count. We (everyone who works at a university) know this. We have mandatory yearly training on this process. Just telling your boss isn’t enough. You have to report it yourself. You might be OK if you report to your boss and then make absolutely sure your boss calls the Title IX office (like, only if you actually watch him/her file the report, or if you get copied on the e-mail). But that’s still shakier ground, legally speaking.
But if you tell your boss, and your boss sits on that information, you are 100% in violation of Title IX. You have an obligation to let the office know this information and you didn’t follow the procedure.
Second, the other thing that makes me believe he didn’t follow the procedure is that it would not have taken a week to verify that he did. The Title IX office records every single report that comes into their office. To verify that Meyer (or Gene Smith) reported, all the Title IX office has to do is open up Zach Smith’s file to see if there are any complaints. Any complaint filed there will include the name of the reporting parties. It would take all of five minutes to verify if a report had actually been done according to the legally mandated procedures. Title IX offices are often notoriously tight-lipped, but they will release this kind of information to clarify that the proper procedures were followed."
August 4th, 2018 at 10:19 AM ^
This is my guess too. Meyer probably did inform his AD. But neither Meyer nor AD Gene Smith reported it to the Title IX officer at OSU.
This would explain Zach Smith's claim on the radio that Gene Smith called him and talked to hem about the DA event in 2015.
I doubt 'reported to the wrong person on campus' will get Meyer fired.
If Meyer reported it to the AD then enough of the public will think he either 'did the right thing,' or at least committed only a bureaucratic error, that it won't be a strong enough reason to fire him.
Though the public may buy that, it is probably a conscious choice to NOT inform the Title IX officer because once the Title IX office gets involved Meyer loses control/influence over how to deal with (keep) Zach Smith in 2015. By reporting to the AD it can be swept under the rug and/or dealt with 'inside the family.'
OTOH, I am 100% sure that OSU Pres. Drake is seething over Meyer's decision to protect himself by issuing a public statement on his twitter yesterday.
August 4th, 2018 at 11:14 AM ^
Absolutely agree with your take on the school prez' likely reaction to yesterday's statement by Meyer, not to mention Z. Smith's performances in those interviews.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:02 PM ^
I agree with your last statement. I did some reading on the guy and he strikes me as a lot more like Schlissel than Gee. No affiliation to the university (not the state of Ohio) prior to being president, training/credentials from Stanford and Ivy League schools. I seriously doubt that someone like that is going to stand for these shenanigans. But you never know, as they say...
August 4th, 2018 at 12:25 PM ^
To further elaborate.... Most of the discussion has ignored the guy that really will decide how this all plays out--OSU President Drake.
As I have posted in another thread... Drake put Meyer on leave and then appointed a group from outside the AD to oversee the investigation. The idea is to channel things into an investigation, stop the media event, and provide a credible foundation for whatever decision Drake will ultimately make.
Meyer just kicked Pres Drake's legs out from under him. At this point it is a question of whether Drake wants to establish that he is bigger than Meyer at OSU, or in the alternative allow Meyer to act in ways that the Pres of the damn University cannot control.
Right now Drake is thinking "Holy crap I am the Pres of OSU and I am the one who is supposed to decide how to control the process and the narrative, not Urban Meyer. Meyer just moved his chess piece to protect himself and prevent firing for cause. And he did it publicly."
And Drake has to decide whether he can live with that, or whether he has is going to re-establish himself as the real boss at OSU, which means getting rid of Meyer and his self serving public power moves.
Gordon Gee was fine with than. Unclear whether Drake will tolerate it. Could go either way.
Getting rid of Meyer would put himself directly in the firing line....if he wants to stay at OSU, he will not fire Meyer.
Not every University President is willing to live in a situation where the head football coach has acted in a way that defies the President (as did Meyer's twitter post yesterday), especially when that coach knowingly extended the contract of an assistant with a long an known history of domestic violence.
Sure firing Meyer would anger lots of OSU fans. But...Drake is 67. This is his last stop. Maybe he has more backbone than Gordon Gee and maybe he wants to do the right thing as his career draws to a close. At any rate, no way the OSU trustees would fire Drake merely for firing Meyer.
Moreover, Drake is going to get tons of criticism both nationally and within Ohio if he keeps Meyer.
Finally, Schlissel would not permit this at Michigan. He would not allow the football coach to put his own interests above the interests of the University. He would not permit his HC to renew over and over the contract of a guy like Zach Smith. And he would not allow his HC to openly defy him.
If Drake is like Gordon Gee, then maybe Meyer stays. But if he is a stronger figure, then Drake may fire Meyer.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:04 PM ^
That's a good take. Not to be overlooked is the committee that will investigate this. Assuming that no report to the Title IX office was filed, they will know it was a deliberate attempt by Meyer to avoid it.
OSU can fire Meyer if they want to. They can keep him if they want to. They can and probably will let public sentiment influence their decision. Right now they are going through the process of supporting a termination with cause. The process is going to play out unless Meyer leaves first.
Let's look at the situation from Meyer's perspective.
OSU is doing exactly what they would do if they planned to fire him for cause. He can't be sure they don't intend to. The failure to report would give them grounds. Defending himself now helps to diminish the impact a report would have. Let's assume that Meyer has been clean except for his handling of Smith. Getting public sentiment on his side makes him harder to fire and easier to reinstate while the investigation is pending. He's got to hate his current situation.
If there is more damaging info to be found, something as a dispassionate Michigan fan I find likely, it's in Meyer's interest to cut the investigation short. He can try to do that in two simple ways, resign or goad them into firing him now. A third way is to use the threat of bringing the program down with him. Involving Gene Smith is step one. Having his lawyer suggest privately that they might find serious NCAA issues could be next. If we're just looking at money, the last two options are better than voluntarily resigning and a lot better than waiting to get fired for cause. Plus any departure negotiated now will be framed as Meyer voluntarily stepping down.
I thought Urban was in trouble and might possibly get fired, but it looks more like Gene Smith will be the sacrificial lamb and get the ax. Urb might get suspended for 6 games. There will be no protest at OSU. Hell the police and prosecutors office never charged the guy with anything. Those people only care about winning football games.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:12 AM ^
The police not pressing charges is what I think will be the focus here and could end up blowing up the local force a little bit while the rest (AD & Meyer) skate through...how could they NOT make an arrest? I thought she had pictures of bruises, etc?
August 4th, 2018 at 11:43 AM ^
Unfortunately I think you're right. Gene Smith "resigns" and Meyer gets a slap on the wrist suspension.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:01 PM ^
Meyer also setting himself up for them to fire him without cause to get the money. Easier to do that than go through the drawn out legal process that continues to flush the brand.
The only way Urbz and Smith go down is because the university president/board decide that they don't want to be tagged with the shame they are going to endure forever from national media and the general public outside of Ohio State. We already know that the overall fanbase is completely shameless.
Also, hey! I got to edit my post! Thanks Mgoblog!
I think even if the later episodes in this saga are viewed as "in compliance", I wonder about the hiring process at The Ohio State University. Did Meyer disclose what he knew about Zach Smith when he recommended him for hire at the University. Would the correct action at that time be to report him as a possible Title IX or domestic violence offender? If he didn't, did he violate his contract at that time? Doesn't OSU do background checks on its teachers and coaches? Shouldn't that have disclosed an issue or a red flag at least? Successful coaches and legatees should not get a pass on hiring procedures. Meyer used poor judgement in hiring a poor coach with worse personal traits. Gene Smith and OSU HR must also be accountable. I can't imagine that they did not circumvent University policies in at least the initial hire.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:05 AM ^
Meyer has hired Kevin Wilson who was fired for player abuse, Schiano who Tennessee wouldn't hire given his PSU ties, Larry Johnson with PSU ties and Smith.
Hard to assemble such a group without strict background checks and due diligence.
Win at all cost...that has been Urban Meyer forever. This whole situation reeks of that mindset. THE Ohio State water carriers in 11 Warriors don't give a rat's butt about DV either as long as the Ws keep racking up.
"I lied because I wasn't prepared"???
"everything was defensive" according to the serial abuser - classic blame the victim.
The whole situation makes me want to vomit, unfortunately it doesn't have the same effect on a lot of OSU fans.
Fuck them and their program...along with MSU and PSU.
Win with class, win with character...and add a little cruelty for good measure.
Go blue.
What everyone seems to have missed in Urbans statement is this crucial point.
Urban never had to fire Smith. As an assistant on 1 or 2 year contracts, all Meyer had to do in 2015; or 2016, or 2017 was simply not offer Smith a new contract.
Happens all the time to assistants and is not as messy as a firing.
The fact Smiths contract kept getting renewed means the entire OSU administration bought into his actions and approved of them.
Is there a bigger D-Bag coach than this guy?
August 4th, 2018 at 12:10 PM ^
Dantonio.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:06 AM ^
Is this apart of the compliance department? If so isn't OSU's the largest in the country?
August 4th, 2018 at 12:50 PM ^
The Title IX office and compliance office are two completely separate things. Title IX is about preventing sexual violence by or against any student, faculty, or staff member at the school. It's a part of the university administration.Compliance is just about athletes and complying with NCAA rules. It's part of the AD.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:08 AM ^
It will be just like MSU. Smith will “resign” or be fired. Meyer keeps his job. Smith will probably receive a nice sum of money down the road from a donor for falling on the sword.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:17 AM ^
Why do we believe Urban about properly reporting? If he lied at media days, why wouldn't he lie now? If he didn't report the incident he's done regardless so why not lie to try and save his job?
The way the statement seems to read is that the intent is to drop this squarely on Gene Smith, but it still runs into this basic problem - why believe Urban on the reporting aspect now? Really, whether he did or not, it doesn't make things look any better for him or really anyone at OSU.
If Meyer reported it to Smith, but not the Title IX person (Smith also didn't report it), did Meyer still violate his contract and would be grounds for fire with cause? It seems that scenario would result in both getting fired, no?
August 4th, 2018 at 10:30 AM ^
I've went back and forth with some members of their fan base, and lets just say the delusional scenarios they have manifested to support Meyer and Zach Smith are astounding. One claimed Smith's arrest for criminal trespassing was him being a "responsible parent". Another that any texts or documentation McMurphy produced were clearly fabricated (this includes police reports from the Gainesville and Powell PDs). Another assured me that Courteney Smith was a vindictive alcoholic and on the radar of the ATF and FBI for threatening to "blow up the practice facility" in front of the entire team.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:52 AM ^
Wish more people could see this because there are far too many people who clearly don't see the holes all over this statement.
August 4th, 2018 at 10:56 AM ^
Actually, I really like the article from Paul Newberry of the Boston Herald.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/college/college_football/2018/08/paul_newberry_control_freak_urban_meyer_suddenly_knows
August 4th, 2018 at 11:59 AM ^
Sgt Shultz. "I know nothing, nothing".
August 4th, 2018 at 10:59 AM ^
This nicely illustrates what happens when you lie and a lot of different people are paying attention. Different people pick up different things, and pretty soon you see multiple ways in which the story doesn’t make sense. And then you have to spin your story even harder, and it starts to make even less sense as more people dissect it. I didn’t think Urban would suffer any meaningful consequences for his statements and actions. I am starting to reconsider that position. It may actually get hot enough that OSU has to do something.
August 4th, 2018 at 11:34 AM ^
The damage is done at Ohio State. The stink stands. Meyer can't escape the mess he's created unless the administration and investigation is totally transparent. For better or worse, the college president decides Meyer's fate at The OHIO STATE.
But whether he stays or leaves, is irrelevant to what Buckeye nation thinks or wants, because it's the president's choice. So he will decide to support the local cause or forever taint its outside reputation.
Meyer opted for a limited hangout defense as part of a 5 p.m. Friday public statement crafted by his legal team. In it, he admitted lying to the press, which these days can simply be passed off as "fake news."
The problem with lying to the press, however, is manifold. First of all, the press never goes away. And once scorned it never trusts your public comments again without serious fact-checking. Then it just keeps asking logical timeline questions about actions and omissions that can't be easily explained away, for example, by claiming failed preparation to answer them.
And it frequently helps to put up a solid corroborating witness to support your case and statement on ESPN minutes after its release instead of relying on the word of the scandal instigator whose public denial of serial abuse then gets immediately fact-checked as false by the tying press.
So, instead of protecting your coach with a redemptive admission from the fired coach only after his serial behavior became public and detailed on Facebook with pictures, we get mounting evidence of the crime and the failure to do anything about it other than see adoring fans organizing a rally for support of their unprepared coach.
If you acknowledge offering counseling to the victim and her husband, and if you employed the grandson of your college mentor who once pleaded with the victim not to press charges against her husband, and you retained him over nine years in successive contracts without background review while knowing his history of domestic violence or even rumors of it passed on through emails among your staff's wives, the idea that you didn't know what was going on --when it was your absolute job to know everything going on in your program-- defies understanding and probability.
So, the fan base will point to Meyer's claim of meeting his contractual requirement to report his knowledge of a 2015 incident that suddenly becomes the lynchpin argument of his case, both to ensure his financial commitment is met, and the possibility that his story will now be vetted in a limited hangout verdict.
It's up to the president to decide Meyer's stint as coach. And that ruling will go far in shaping the university's public image outside the football world. At a time when the school is already undergoing a PSU-like scandal with a discredited sports doctor, implicating a prominent national Republican congressman in his own Meyer-like defense as a see-no-evil former coach, this guy's got some touch choices to make. Either way, its barrel time for The Ohio State.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:28 PM ^
Also, regarding lying to the media, this isn't about something trivial like a football depth chart, it's over whether he kept a serial abuser on his staff, which that the media legitimately has a right to know about.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:41 PM ^
This whole thing feels to me like someone who was treated like a king in the media and if he said “it didn’t happen” or “don’t report it”, the press just left it at that, whether for fear of lack of future access or just because the local press “knew” not to pursue it.
August 4th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^
Rosenberg asks the right questions. My guess is that Smith offered up the rationale that Meyer will have to use for the eventual firing: the public scrutiny itself was going to make it detrimental to keep Smith in the program. Meyer could also say that the last allegation was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:00 PM ^
Did he report it to Title 9 office? If not, what leg does he have to stand on?
August 4th, 2018 at 12:41 PM ^
If Meyer did not report to the Title IX office, then on the merits he has no leg to stand on.
However...He is the best coach OSU has ever had in terms of winning....
He has $38 million owed under the contract (and you have to get it 100% right to fire him for cause to avoid paying)...
If Meyer reported to his AD that will be good enough to convince the alumni and enough of the general public that he is a swell guy.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:02 PM ^
The real “what I want to know” is about when others in the media learned about this and didn’t report it. As we saw with the Weinstein awfulness, so many people in the media knew what was happening and wouldn’t report on it. I would bet my bottom dollar that the article that started this would have never been published had he still been with ESPN. I can absolutely envision a “if you report this, you lose access” situation.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:11 PM ^
Urban needs to go before another Aaron Hernandez situation develops.
August 4th, 2018 at 12:12 PM ^
"The only thing missing from Urban’s statement and Zach Smith’s ESPN interview Friday night was the Ohio State marching band dotting the ‘i’ on lie."