OT- RIP Stephen Hawking
This is a topic that gets really into the weeds, but the philosophical arguments and the ideas behind the heaven of the Christians are different in fundamental wasy from Egypt, Ba'hai, or other religions.
And while the Church did in fact take some feast days of other, pre-existing days, the feast days pre-existed the 'adoption'. It was a calender thing, not a 'copying' thing.
These are old bromides that have been around since the 1500's that keep popping up in various theist and non theist circles. They are essentially quick hit soundbites that on the surface look great but don't stand deeper inquiry.
Just because two ideas are similar, doesn't mean that one was 'copied' from the other. If you are really curious for the other side of the argument, Catholic Answers and Bishop Barron's 'Word on Fire' both have some pretty good articles on this. As does Peter Kreeft.
Kreeft is an amazing writer and (IMHO) Brilliant philosopher. Barron is very brilliant and very available via youtube and the Word On Fire webpage. Catholic Answers is an organization devoted to apologetics. All are pretty good.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:05 AM ^
March 14th, 2018 at 10:05 AM ^
"but the fact remains that the religion was basically a version of previous religions initially targeted to attract those individuals who were downtrodden in society and later incorporated aspects of other religions to broaden its appeal among the upper classes."
I reject the premise.
Yes, they did adopt some feast days. But its not like the apostles were going 'Oh, yeah, let's grab that from the Egyptians, that's popular... hey, how about some stuff from that cult of Dionysius, Peter, write that in.... it might capture the Roman upper classes...'
It has very Jewish roots, and that is where its philosophy and basis comes from.
Again, just because there are similarties doesn't mean that that one followed the other. Christmas is not Saturnalia.
The history is there, you can see it in the Church fathers. You can see it in the writings of Roman officials who felt it was perverse.
If they wanted to 'capture the poor and get the upper classes' offering a religion that showed a suffering, cruficied God, demanded sexual control, and let people through the persecutions was a crappy way to do it.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:22 AM ^
March 14th, 2018 at 10:44 AM ^
is 'The good news'. Redemptive suffering is a huge point in Christianity. It was pretty novel as well. But from a strictly materiealist point of view, was it better than hedonism/materialistic cults for the upper classes? Not so much. And for the lower classes, whose lives could definitely be made worse, is that attractive? What about the middle class in Rome that took to it very powerfully? When the persecutions came the idea of redemptive suffering is good, but not enough if its just a marketing ploy.
But I thought we were talking about how Christianity just took 'other stuff' in a crass attempt to get followers?
"Combine that with the ability of people who aren’t really suffering to to purchase indulgences or, in modern life, be as sinful as they want and still be able to get to heaven through a deathbed confession or being born again."
C'mon. That is a very shallow, cynical view of Christian philosophy. Yes. It is possible for the sinful to go to get to heavan. Again, that is the good news. But " be as sinful as they want"... No. When I go to confession I have to have, as part of my request for forgiveness, a true intention of trying to sin no more. By my understanding, when a member of a Protestant denomination becomes 'Born again' that has to signal a change in heart, that leads to a change in action. Paul himself is a great example of such a conversion.
Could you have a deathbed conversion/repentance? Sure. But it has to be genuine. Cynically thinking you can shit on others and sin against God your entire life and then say some words and you're good won't cut it.
Ancient Christians truly believed. I believe as well. There are good philosophical reasons behind that belief, and good historical evidence. There isn't as much for the more conspiritorial view of the early apostles being earlie moonies looking for a quick gain and lots of followers. That is a more jaundiced view of history. You may not agree with those reasons for belief, and that is your right. I respect that. But if you are going to attack them please understand them better.
At this point, I think we have reached an impasse. We'll have to agree to disagree. I've looked at those arguments against Christianity before. I've read parts of the early church fathers. For my part I am satisfied. If you want to look into it more, I would really encourage the sources I mentioned before: Catholic Answers, Word on Fire, and Peter Kreeft. These aren't idiots; they make good arguments that are logical.
As an aside; it feels as if you have a real bone to pick with Christianity. The sad truth is we have dicks, and sometimes monsters, within our ranks as much as any other human group. If you have been victimized from one of them then I am truly sorry, for what it's worth.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:59 AM ^
And hypocrtis, lots and lots of hypocrits. I am more of a "Moral Man, Immoral Society" type of guy.
March 14th, 2018 at 11:14 AM ^
we are ALL hypocrites.
March 14th, 2018 at 12:12 PM ^
the Church is a field hospital.
I fully admit to being a hypocrite, liar, insensitive... in short, I'm a sinner. In my best form I aspire to not be a sinner, but I'm a long way from there.
There was a point, often in my youth, where I thought I was better than other people. Even unconsciously. The older I get the more often I find the reverse to be true.
Christianity is an invitation to do better.
But yes, unfortunately some use it as a club.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:44 AM ^
Osteen... lol. You are correct: He speaks a perversion of the Bible.
March 14th, 2018 at 12:14 PM ^
of Osteen myself.
This has been the modus operandi of every religion trying to expand in a region with existing belief systems different from their own. To subsume an existing culture, the invading culture has always adopted certain practices as its own.
March 14th, 2018 at 12:32 PM ^
March 14th, 2018 at 10:36 AM ^
I’m sorry, it’s impossible for me to imagine a God that petty. Pettiness is a human thing.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
March 14th, 2018 at 11:56 AM ^
March 14th, 2018 at 12:43 PM ^
Why is it assumed that the Creator is punishing someone? If said Creator has laid out a path for salvation and people refuse to walk it, is that punishment? I view that as a personal choice one can follow or reject.
We may only have the big empty to look forward too. But he was a brilliant astrophysicist. I'm amazed he lived so long with ALS.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:52 PM ^
You are observant. I do have my own beliefs about the afterlife. However, there are many, many different views about what comes after this life. I won't speculate here. Even though I have specific beliefs, there is a clear injunction from Jesus himself in Matthew 7 expressly forbiding such speculation.
The one thing we can be clear about is that if Hawkings personal beliefs were correct, there were unavoidable implications. Namely, if he was only a physical being, with no eternal spirit, than Hawkings qua Hawkings has ceased to exist. Concepts of "rest" and "peace" make no sense.
If there is any kind of life and sentient existence past the point of physical death, than Hawkings was clearly wrong. However, as noted above, I won't speculate or post those thoughts here. Number one, it clearly breaks board policy. Number two, it would inevitably give offense to some. And number three, while I have my own beliefs about what comes next, they simply aren't "provable" this side of death. If there is some kind of life after physical death, we will all know soon enough just what form it takes.
the world lost one of its brightest minds. Glad he isn’t trapped in his body anymore.
I remember having my world truly expanded by reading A Brief History of Time when I was in high school. He was, and will continue to be, an inspiration to humanity.
Demon Haunted world. I thought he did a great job in that. He addressed religion but wasn't a SkepDick about it.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:02 AM ^
That was Carl Sagan.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^
And I'm an idiot. Thank you for the correction.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:19 AM ^
how he lives on.
he wasn't always as ravaged looking as all that, though that's how he'll always be pictured.
Some quotes:
"We are in danger of destroying ourselves by our greed and stupidity. We cannot remain looking inwards at ourselves on a small and increasingly polluted and overcrowded planet.”
"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special.”
"Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious.”
"It is no good getting furious if you get stuck. What I do is keep thinking about the problem but work on something else. Sometimes it is years before I see the way forward. In the case of information loss and black holes, it was 29 years.”
"We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet”
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
Right up there with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. Will be hard to replace. RIP.
I don't know if it's fair to make that statement yet
March 14th, 2018 at 10:08 AM ^
It's fair.
The future is always uncertain, but it would take more than one major and extremely unlikely turn of events for Hawking to be elevated to the level of Einstein and Newton in the esteem of physicists.
Einstein's 1905 papers alone outweigh Hawking's life's work.
Hawking did have a major, even historical, hit with his 1970s black hole work though. His name will deservedly appear in texts down through the centuries.
What happens when Stephen hawking dies? The windows shutdown sound plays.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:26 AM ^
Alien contact was not something to which he looked forward.
his concerns about AI and aliens had some merit. Just IMHO.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:02 AM ^
I'd be fairly concerned about it too. If aliens possess the ability to use interstellar travel to be able to reach us, then that means they are far more technologically advanced than us. Perhaps thousands of years beyond our current capabilities. And if they turn out to be hostile, I imagine our weaponry against their's will likely be the equivalent of going against someone wearing kevlar who's sporting a .50 cal, and all you've got is a slingshot and a few pebbles. In other words, we'd be ripe for the picking and could be completely slaughtered or enslaved if that's what they really wanted.
We're likely at least several centuries away from having the means to send humans beyond our own solar system. Much less across the galaxy. We're still trying to figure out how to send ourselves to our neighboring planets.
If aliens do find us, we'd better hope they come with friendly intentions. And that's assuming we haven't all already killed ourselves or nuked the whole planet by the time they get here.
March 14th, 2018 at 10:09 AM ^
The mere size of space is so daunting. Hell, we have problems with the solar system and it sounds like we just barely have the tech to get to Mars if we really wanted to.
If there are civilizations that can cross the void... yipes. Would they even recognize us sentient beings?
March 14th, 2018 at 11:01 AM ^
It's likely they wouldn't. We consider ourselves advanced because we have no real basis for comparison. Life has the potential to have started millions of years before Earth-based life did somewhere in this galaxy. Even though the concept of millions is really miniscule when talking about the scope of the universe, that is still millions of years of evolving and adapting prior to when life on Earth could've started. Imagine going up against a civilization with that kind of knowledge and weaponry. That war is over before it even starts.
Even if it was only thousands of years where this other form of life had a head start, that is a gaping divide in both civilization's capabilities. They would likely view us as we view chimpanzees. Physically and intellectually inferior. Pets. Cattle. Slaves. Meeting extraterrestrial life would be a historic world event, but depending on their intentions, it may be the last event human beings ever know.
Hell, if their minds operate at all like human minds do, given our brutal history of enslaving, raping, and killing everyone we deem to be inferior, we're all done for.