MGoPodcast 11.6: On the Other Hand
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[After THE JUMP: on the one…]
1. The Offense
starts at 1:00
Did that look like the #14 team in the country? Michigan is +4 in turnovers too. Patterson had an O'Korn performance. Terrible INT on a high-low read anybody should be able to make. First throw of the day is nearly intercepted too. Terrible sack he takes—Joel Klatt: "coverage sack"—literally every receiver is open. We're ready for McCaffrey at this point given Patterson's regression. One keeper and everyone says hurrah, and no more from the arc zone game until the 4 minute drill. What were you doing this offseason? Running game is getting nothing now because it's so simplified. Pass pro wasn't bad; Patterson made it look worse.
2. The Defense
starts at 23:54
Dominant performance. Stanley under siege: Michigan was sending their OLBs against Wirfs and Alaric Jackson while Kwity was winning inside. Key drive at the end Alaric Jackson has to tackle Michigan's edge guys. Blitz package was great: Iowa goes five-wide, Michigan consistently got McGrone through. Surprised Stanley didn't fumble when he was Statue of Liberty'ing the ball. Hello Mr. Dwumfour. Four-DE package was killer. Ace: they suckered Iowa into a passing down in the redzone. Stanley's "pre-snap read" to Lavert Hill was thrown too well. Revenge fade to Oliver Martin—Ambry lucky it was uncatchable. Clearly there was supposed to be a safety over the top when Hill got beat. Shout out Khaleke for his run defense.
3. Special Teams/Game Theory
starts at 42:56
If you take a TO to ice the kicker, the HC has to take a Gatorade bath. Running short of the sticks: who thought that was a good idea and why are we doing it? Maybe don't kick pop-ups to one of the kick returners in the conference? Didn't put two guys back on 4th and 20, let the Aussie angle it. Mirror Ferentz showed once, but had a shot in Michigan's territory when Michigan declined the delay of game penalty. Michigan finally got some fluck. Homecoming: we didn't get the traditional band show with Temptation/Hawaiian War Chant.
4. Around the Big Ten wsg Jamie Mac
starts at 1:02:20
Heisman stat padding afternoon for Jon Taylor. Purdue's out literally half their team vs Penn State; Louisville's going to have a better season than Purdue this year. The Journey: Rutgers. Blackshear and Sitkowski both redshirting to preserve eligibility for somewhere other than Rutgers. Tanner Morgan follows up 21/22 with not that. Pat Fitzgerald triple-ices kicker instead of getting another drive.
MUSIC:
- “The Slow Descent Into Alcoholism”—The New Pornographers
- “It Hurts Until It Doesn't”—Mothers
- “Randy Described Eternity”—Built to Spill
- “Across 110th Street”
THE USUAL LINKS:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
- Direct download link
- What's with the theme music?
I just want to DK Metcalf the offense. That's where we are.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
If you aren't the QB on the play you cannot throw the ball away, even outside the pocket. It will be a grounding penalty no matter what.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^
Interesting, I actually didn't know that was a rule.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:42 AM ^
It's not.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:51 AM ^
The guy behind the line of scrimmage, with the ball, is the QB, unless he received a forward pass.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:19 AM ^
IX. Third and 5 at the A-40. QB A12 drops back in the pocket to pass. Under a heavy rush he throws a backward pass to back A22 who carries the ball outside the tackle box. About to be tackled, A22 at the A-35 throws a forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and lands in an area 20 yards away from the nearest Team A eligible receiver. RULING:Foul, intentional grounding. The tackle-box rule exception applies only to the player who controls the snap or the resulting backward pass. Loss of down at the spot of the foul. Fourth and 10 at the A-35. (Rule 7-3-2-h-Exc.)
October 7th, 2019 at 12:13 PM ^
Outsidethebox,
having played, coached, and officiated as much as you have (referenced in your above post), you didn’t know that rule about intentional grounding?
October 7th, 2019 at 10:40 AM ^
That's not remotely true. And all DPJ would have to do is throw it out of bounds in the general vicinity of the WR, just like any other thrower.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:52 AM ^
Well you're making a separate argument. Obviously DPJ is allowed to throw the ball if it's at an eligible receiver, but he cannot just chuck it out of bounds without it being grounding. I think the intent of the rule is so a RB or whoever on a toss play can't just chuck the ball away to avoid being tackled for loss, but this designed passing play is under the same rules.
October 7th, 2019 at 3:07 PM ^
You are correct about the intentional grounding distinction; I was making the argument that he could throw it away in a reasonable manner. Also, and this may be a different reading of the rules than I've seen, but I took the "resulting backward pass" to include these types of RB/WR passes. I've seen players throw the ball out of bounds in those instances without a penalty. Now, in the fact pattern put forth the QB flings it to another player who wasn't really intending to throw the ball and then he throws it away to save yardage, that's grounding. But in this case DPJ was the "intended" passer on that play. This wasn't desperation, and my guess is the refs would have allowed it had it been the case because (if memory serves me right) DPJ actually got the ball inside the tackle box.
October 7th, 2019 at 8:15 PM ^
No, the rule is clear. Only the player who receives the snap may ground the ball without penalty.
If not for this rule, you'd start coaching all players on jet sweeps to throw the ball away if they couldn't get the corner.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:06 AM ^
The statistical decline is simply astonishing.
The interception was a Freshman level bad read.
At this point, you might as well play Dylan and get him ready for next year.
I guess I should be surprised that the yr everything is supposed to line up falls apart when your Sr QB doesn’t put the work in this is what happens.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
As much as I have defended Patterson in the past, I am firmly in the it's time for a QB change camp. Assuming DCaff is healthy Illinois is the perfect warm up for him to get some confidence before going into Happy Valley at night. If they are going to make the change it has got to be this week assuming he is healthy, you don't want his first start coming on the road at Happy Valley. Even if Patterson improves we have already seen his ceiling and it is not good enough for this team to be anything more than 8-4/9-3 at best type of team.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:18 AM ^
Needing the backup qb to play a cupcake before a rough roadgame... whoa.. feels like deja vu...
October 7th, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
It is very similar to 2017 right now, I assumed after that year like most that UM would not have QB play as bad as that year again, but here we are.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:17 AM ^
Remember when almost everyone had michigan as one of the deepest qb room in the country?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:25 AM ^
If I recall correctly, the competition between Patterson and McCaffrey was stated as razor thin. Patterson's command of the offense gave him the edge.
Yikes.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:54 AM ^
Many said O'Korn was the best QB on the team when he was working with the scout team while sitting out his year.... and competition between him and Wilt was 'razor thin' too.... look how well it went when he got his shot.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^
I mean that is true, but in this case what is the worst that can happen? Can anybody honestly say this team has a ceiling of better than 8-4/9-3 with Patterson even if reverts to last year's version at some point? At least give DCaff an extended look to see if he can do anything to raise that ceiling at this point.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:08 AM ^
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the talk about 'razor thin' and all that might be more coach speak than anything.
I'm 100% sure Jim Harbaugh and Josh Gattis want to win more than we want them to win I'd amost bet they know more about evaluating QB's too. If DMac gives us a better shot at winning, i'm pretty sure he'll be playing.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:30 AM ^
True, it might have been coach speak. I mean none of us are the coaches, we don't see what is going on in practice, etc. It is up to the coaches to determine whether Dylan can be as accurate as Patterson consistently when his first and second read is open and he has a clean pocket. That is still something that Patterson does well most of the time.
October 7th, 2019 at 9:26 AM ^
If Shea is their best qb, then this team is in real trouble next year.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^
It is mind blowing how broken the offense is for a team returning 9 of 11 starters. Absolutely inexcusable.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:08 AM ^
I get the desire to lay the blame on Shea because he can be replaced at any given time. If the problem is Shea it can be fixed next week.
Shea has issues but I just don't see the evidence for that hopeful explanation. What I remember from JOK and Nick Sheridan was them missing obvious open well designed plays or being unable to make the pass that was required or being wildly inaccurate. Shea isn't doing those things. He is fairly accurate and has the required arm strength. He is just throwing to covered guys and eating sacks or throwing it away.
If the explanation is that;
a. Everyone is open but Shea doesn't throw it.
AND
b. Shea locks in on his primary receiver who... isn't open?
In a well designed play, the primary receiver is the guy who is supposed to be open. But we don't see these plays. The plays where the primary receiver is open and Shea has locked onto him and he throws it. We don't see that very much. If the play design asks Shea to drop back and go through three or more receivers to find "the open one" then I can see why he is struggling. NFL QBs struggle with that.
College play design is supposed to create mismatches or put the defense in conflict and then take the easy yards. Michigan has basically no plays that look like that. Try to think of a Michigan offensive play that looked clever, well designed, got easy yards, put an athlete in a position to beat a guy in space for a chunk. These things aren't happening. They seem to have stopped doing the various option plays because they didn't work and allowed the defense to dictate what the offense did. Instead, I am seeing lots of plays that look badly designed or easily defended or don't seem to make sense.
Michigan seems to be running a very simple generic offense with very few easy yards and almost zero conflict on the defense. And then asks the players to "out execute" the defense. They can't go deep because the safeties stay back and they can't get the safeties up because they can't do anything that makes the safeties come up. I don't see how that is on the QB.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:09 AM ^
On the other hand, Rudock was hot garbage more than halfway through 2015. All the fans were screaming for him to be replaced. Then the reads finally clicked for him and the offense took off. The same thing happened with McSorley in 2016.
I think it's possible this could happen with Shea, who is the best passer on this team. He's one of the most accurate passers in the nation, has a stronger arm than Dylan, and Milton has thrown horrendous interceptions against everyone with a pulse.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:24 AM ^
That is all true, and I don't think anybody would disagree with the notion that Patterson is very accurate when he has time and his read is open. Also I would agree arm strength is the concern with Dylan and Milton is simply not ready. I guess the question is, and this is probably something only the coaches can answer, is whether they think Dylan can be accurate on his first and second reads when they are open, because that is all Patterson is giving you right now. If Dylan can do that he gives you a bigger threat with the legs to keep the defense honest than what Patterson is currently giving you. If nothing else that would give your running game a little bit of a boost.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:14 AM ^
McCaffrey is still in concussion protocol. He was in street clothes on Saturday, which means he hasn't been cleared to even practice. That is not a great sign that in week 3 he is still in street clothes on game day. I recall Peters was out 6+ weeks with his concussion and when he returned he never really looked right again. But Peters blacked-out for quite awhile. McCaffrey didn't appear to loose consciousness, so hopefully not as severe and he can get back to game ready over the next few weeks.
Coaches are going with Shea unless he is injured. This is the toughest part of the schedule coming up and no time to test a rookie. Milton will play against Illinois but not likely in the PSU game unless thrust into duty because Shea is injured.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:34 AM ^
True, McCaffrey's health obviously has to be good and he has to get some days of practice back in before you can even think about making a switch.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:41 AM ^
I'm honestly fine with that. McCaffrey may well provide a spark, but let's be extra careful about the kids head.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:19 AM ^
I brought my family to the game with me- we were all pretty pissed that there was no Temptation/Hawaiian War Chant at the halftime show. First time in 28 years of going to homecoming games that I can remember that happening.
Also, no M-I-C-H-I-G-A-N locomotive chant before the game. What the hell?
October 7th, 2019 at 10:44 AM ^
The locomotive chant absolutely happened before the game so not sure where you were for that.
October 7th, 2019 at 12:17 PM ^
I remember the locomotive chant happening. Was it before the game or during an early break?
October 7th, 2019 at 12:18 PM ^
Really? I got there 30 minutes before kickoff too and don't remember seeing it. I must have been blabbing with someone while that happened.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:20 AM ^
Was the interception a terrible read, or did holding the ball for such a long time make it a terrible read? I think he had it if he throws the ball earlier instead of staring at him for an extra second.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:26 AM ^
I mean to me it is still a terrible read. That would have required a perfect throw still when the short WR was an easy one that still would have gone for a first down with the run after the catch.It is very simple high/low read against a zone defense.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:17 AM ^
This a big part of the problem with Patterson I think... he only "unleashes the dragon" on short throws with tight windows. If he had more of a McSorley / Rex Grossman mind set (F it I'm going deep) I truly believe that would open up more running lanes and underneath stuff, even if most of those chances go incomplete.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:16 AM ^
Terrible read. The correct throw was to All who was blindingly open underneath for a big gain instead of they’d g to fit it into a tight window between 2 defenders.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:44 AM ^
Timing matters on this play, especially as you're talking about fitting it between two defenders. Decision and fire point is really right now for Patterson (first frame). All is in the maize at the bottom of the block M, Black is breaking into a corner route behind a flat footed CB facing the wrong way.
All is effectively bracketed by the LB #45 and the CB. It's not at all clear that he gets the first down. In fact I'd argue Patterson can't make this throw: #45 is actually in the passing lane, he'd have to loft it to All, and the reward for that touch pass is a CB who's likely going to tackle short of the sticks.
Black has the CB beat here, if Patterson is throwing it's complete. It's actually underthrown, or even with a nice play by the CB (who in cover two deals with this exact thing all the time), this is complete. The CB gets some nice air, but there's plenty of room to the sideline and before the safety arrives to fit this in. You're always throwing between defenders when you high/low vs. Cover 2. You can see it's 3 seconds later before the ball arrives (second frame) - Patterson held it too long, doing that pat of the ball before throwing thing. I think this is the correct read, just thrown 1) late, and 2) shallow.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:47 AM ^
Its been there from day 1 that Patterson has no football sense. This isn't anything new and its why he has always looked like shit against teams with a pulse. The offense wasn't good last year, we just had an easier schedule. We will blow Illinois out this week because they are a bad team that makes it easy for Patterson and then get shut out at PSU because they have an actual defense.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:49 AM ^
I should also add, that Gattis is obviously struggling as a play caller and with prep/install. He doesn’t go back to plays that work nor does he have counters ready when opposing defenses adjust.
I think Shea is a big part of the problem but the coaching brain trust is not faultless here.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:55 AM ^
Yet at Ole Miss he averaged over 300 yards a game passing, just under 64% completions.....
he clearly is capable
October 7th, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
But it was the same case there, put up big numbers against nobodies and really struggled against teams with a pulse. I mean to be fair his offensive line was god awful there, but I don't think anyone is disputing Patterson can light up bad teams. He is very accurate when he has time and his first and second read are open, which is often the case when you are playing an overmatched team.
October 7th, 2019 at 10:55 AM ^
Surprised Stanley didn't fumble when he was Statue of Liberty'ing the ball.
me too:
October 7th, 2019 at 11:15 AM ^
The music between the offense and defense segments confused me... the first couple bars I thought we were about to hear the Chicago Blackhawks goal scoring song, and then I though Captain & Tenille before I actually read the title and artist in the content.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:39 AM ^
I would think most fans are hoping that Dylan can be better, because if he really isn’t ready then.....yikes. The bigger question then becomes why can’t Harbaugh put a functional QB on the field besides Rudock? It is not like Michigan is the only school recruiting these QBs. I just want to see this team succeed because there is too much talent on the offensive side of the ball to look like this. It just seems like the longer a QB stays at Michigan the worse he looks. Yeah I get it, none of us on here know as much as the coaches. But it doesn’t take an expert to see that QB play in general has been a huge problem.
October 7th, 2019 at 11:44 AM ^
Can we please talk about Ben McDaniels? QB coach right? Yes Harbaugh, Yes Gattis, but where is the discussion about the guy who is supposed to be the position coach? WTF is he 'teaching' because you have to point to a position coach at some point as at least an impact on Patterson's lack of progress. Talk about position coaches and success or failure of other positions, drevno anyone? Maybe Ruddock made that great progress mid year because JH was personally involved, and now he's trying to leave it on his QB coach? While we're at it, what about our RB coach, Jay H? Uhmmm, I get it, coaches kid and all, but is he 'really' the best for the RB's?
October 7th, 2019 at 1:08 PM ^
RB coach doesn’t coach remember? Jay is the sacred cow of MGoZealots. Don’t dare to criticize him bc to them RB coaches are in name only even tho our RB play fell off a cliff since Wheatley left.
October 7th, 2019 at 12:01 PM ^
Yeah, that last Iowa play WAS terrifying. My immediate thought was that yet another fluke beats Michigan. I suppose the odds say flukes screw every team but it feels as if it's a Michigan . . . tradition.
October 7th, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
Icing the kicker?
I think it would be effective at the end of a game, when facing a game-winning field goal, you call a time-out to ice the kicker, and then SEEM to be about to call another time-out bit then NOT doing it, potentially getting in the kicker's head.
Admittedly, it would rarely work. However, once we figure out that alternate universe thing and can run many iterations of time out + time out vs. time out + fake out, I'd be willing to bet a nickel that the fake out would work better at least 0.005 per cent of the time better than time out/time out.
October 7th, 2019 at 1:00 PM ^
I love the image of Juwan Howard getting passionate about the football game.
October 7th, 2019 at 1:14 PM ^
BUILT TO SPILL! ??
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