Football Recruiting and the reality of bagmen
Last week, I had an interesting conversation with a registered NFL agent. This particular agent formally represents several Michigan grads currently in the league, as well as guys currently on the team. He thinks well of many guys at Michigan, even though he is an OSU grad. Our discussion took place prior to the debacle, when I still had naive hope in a Michigan win. Sigh.
In our discussion, he shared that a huge number of highly rated players, including several prominent guys currently on Michigan's team, receive compensation. From his perspective, basically every kid who is from a low income family and is ranked more or less in the top 100 prospects, probably in the top 200 or 300 prospects, is currently receiving compensation. He also believes that given the ridiculous amounts of money involved, this makes sense. Why should rich white guys in the NCAA and coaches and institutions get more and more, when kids in challenging circumstances basically get nothing. (Well, they get free room and board and tuition, but that's basically in exchange for working full time as a football player on a Division I team.)
As regards OSU, this matter of compensation has given them a huge leg up on Michigan. One of the real reasons Zach Smith continued so long as WR coach was his ability to leverage compensation for recruits going to the Buckeyes. The reality is that if the same thing doesn't happen at Michigan, we are never going to catch up to Alabama and Clemson, let alone OSU.
I don't know quite what to make of it all, but I am sure this is the reality. My guess is that Brian is all too aware of the reality, and this is part of the reason he supports compensating players openly. I'm sure there are boundaries out there and lines you can't cross. That's part of the reason Ole Miss got in trouble: they either paid players too openly, or crossed the wrong powerful people.
Regardless, here are my major takeaways. First, the schools at the top shield the coaches with plausible deniability, but these same coaches almost have to be aware that this is going on. If bagmen or boosters or agents are compensating family members, they do it in a way that no one on the coaching staff has their hands on it or direct knowledge of it. Second, if my agent contact is correct, several top players at Michigan are part of the same practice. Which means that I don't know how accurate it is to be throwing stones at other schools and their coaches. For good or for bad, this is the current reality. Given the current economic status of many the families involved, and the obscene amounts of money to be made, it is fairly inevitable that this would be the reality.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:56 PM ^
I have not seen that, but I'd believe it.
I have a friend here in ATL who is very much connected to UGA sports (I've mentioned him before in that he's told me of Jacob Eason and Isaac Nauta's fondness for partying with "white girls") who has told me some of the stuff they do. Bagmen aren't like chemtrails or jet fuel can't melt steel beams, they're very real.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:57 PM ^
"Directors of Football Operations don't buy cars for the kids' moms."
Nope. But they have been known to pay mom's electric bills.
I still don't believe Ole Miss was that friggen stoopid!!!
November 29th, 2018 at 2:02 PM ^
Ole Miss is a great example of how stupid you have to be to get caught.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:55 PM ^
I mean how else would they convince a 5 star QB from Toledo to go there??
November 29th, 2018 at 3:14 PM ^
It would be really interesting to hear Shea's stories about Ole 'Piss', after he left school of course.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:27 PM ^
I presume you're somewhat aware that Shea left Toledo when he was 11, and in fact lived in Louisiana (which neighbors Mississippi - geography lesson for you), when he committed to Ole Miss.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:33 PM ^
It also helps when your brother is a coach there.
November 29th, 2018 at 4:13 PM ^
what about luring a hypothetical 5* WR from some hypothetically very large metropolitan area in the midwest though
November 29th, 2018 at 4:19 PM ^
I presume you're somewhat aware Shea verbally committed to three different schools, all of which employed his brother. He last flipped from LSU (which is in Louisiana - geography lesson for you), where his brother was on staff, to go to Ole Miss, which then promptly hired his brother.
Again, if you want to believe Shea and his brother bolted LSU for Ole Miss because of tradition or geography or whatever, that's fine. Maybe they did! It seems aggressively more likely the dirtiest program in college football offered some extra incentives to the 5 star QB with no ties to Mississippi, and his tag along brother, and they accepted. Or maybe Ole Miss was just in the business of paying every other random five star they signed, and Shea's commitment was the one on the up-and-up.
It never made any sense why Patterson picked Ole Miss in the first place, and then it made even less sense when he transferred to Michigan and every story talked about how he was born in Toledo and was a Michigan fan his whole life.
November 29th, 2018 at 5:14 PM ^
The move to hire Shea's brother was in the works before Shea's commitment to Ole Miss. Shea's brother was also a college quarterback and, at that point, had plenty of experience in football admin (at Arizona before LSU). It helped Ole Miss land Shea, but it also wasn't a sham hire - just like hiring Chris Partridge and Devin Bush Sr. here.
Ole Miss also had a much more suitable offense for Shea. They were the 8th best offense in the country the year before he signed and the 2nd best passing offense. Meanwhile, LSU was still very run heavy, and Les Miles was in his last full season (with how fast LSU pulled the trigger in 2016, there were no doubt rumblings before then). For everything bad that Freeze was, he wasn't a dummy when it came to offense, and he ran a system where Shea could really put up numbers.
Shea had committed to Rich Rod at Arizona originally - a spread offense that employed his brother. Then he flipped to LSU - the hometown school that employed his brother. Then he flipped to Ole Miss - a great offensive fit who also hired his brother.
It makes plenty of sense that Shea went to Ole Miss if you pay attention to the facts. He mostly cared about being with bro, and he wanted to go somewhere where he fit the offense, or that was close to home. You really don't have to get into conspiracies to make sense of this one. Also, the Pattersons were hardly poor. They don't exactly fit the target for financial enticements unless you count a job for big brother Sean.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:27 PM ^
So, like ed Martin minus the numbers racket.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:51 PM ^
I was thinking it, and you said(typed) it. Pretty much the same thing,
November 30th, 2018 at 1:02 AM ^
Clemson and other schools in the South are funneling money through churches now. It works quite well for them.
November 30th, 2018 at 1:03 AM ^
Duplicate.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:45 PM ^
There was a pretty big article a couple years ago that was about the payouts and it listed the SEC directly as the biggest beneficiary. In that article it listed cash as the king for recruiting. Typically it is business men who had lots of cash flowing through a business and are able to skim some off here and there and it not be noticeable(car lots were an example). It had interviews with a bagman and he laid it out in great detail. I found the article btw...
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview
It is eye-opening but not at all surprising.
November 29th, 2018 at 6:12 PM ^
Very interesting article. Thanks for posting.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:29 PM ^
OSU's recruiting really didn't reach its current level until Urban got there. Clemson struggled to recruit until they were an established national power, and even Alabama's first few classes were not at the level they are now. I feel like the bagman matters, but winning and success is more important.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:39 PM ^
the bagmen usually are businessmen, they're not going to front the money until it's proven they can win.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:40 PM ^
C'mon Dabo doesn't cheat. He's very very religious. He would never allow his team to cheat. /s
November 29th, 2018 at 1:49 PM ^
C'mon Tressel didn't cheat. He dresses like Mr. Rogers. He would never allow his team to cheat. /s
November 29th, 2018 at 2:01 PM ^
I've never understood this line of slander. What does the Bible say about the NCAA or amateurism? You can make an argument that there's a biblical argument for paying players.
I get that Michigan fans love to throw shade at the south and the SEC in any way possible, but is there an obvious contradiction between A. Dabo being a real, committed Christian, and B. Clemson making sure their recruits are offered incentives?
Hugh Freeze had prostitutes on speed dial, okay I get that one, but Dabo? Is there an 11th commandment that says "Thou shalt not pay D Tackles under the table"?
November 29th, 2018 at 2:08 PM ^
Proverbs 6:16-19
November 29th, 2018 at 2:13 PM ^
"A heart that devises wicked schemes"
Confirmed: Don Brown is destined for eternal damnation.
November 30th, 2018 at 3:25 PM ^
he got a taste of that last saturday. . .
November 29th, 2018 at 2:49 PM ^
I think it's more that it's hard to accept as genuine anyone who broadcasts his or her "religion" as a cheap and often transparent marketing ploy. The person pretending to be unique in how righteous he or she may be gets a well deserved eye roll from anyone capable of thinking critically. And it doesn't tell us anything about that person's commitment to playing by the rules.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:58 PM ^
I'm not a religious person, so I can't quote or analyze scripture, however I think most people assume devote Christians are honest and abide by the rules. You can't do those things and have bag men. There must be Christian values that would inform them not to break rules for personal gain, no?
November 29th, 2018 at 3:33 PM ^
There's no rules Christians must abide by outside of the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I really don't think Jesus is an NCAA bootlicker, and I don't really understand where the "Christians obey all rules" thinking comes from. Christianity is pretty Libertarian outside of a single authority.
November 29th, 2018 at 5:23 PM ^
I think you are missing the basic morality here. The person is expected to be honest, so if they agree to follow the rules (in this case as mandated by the NCAA) and then knowingly violate them (or allow them to be violated), it is fundamentally dishonest. It doesn't matter if the rule is a doctrine or faith or something made up yesterday - if they gave their word to abide by it, their actions are a testament to their character (or lack thereof).
November 29th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^
I think part of the argument is that OSU, Bama, and Clemson became successful after those coaches came in is that those coaches are organized and helped organize the network as it were. Part of the reason Ole Miss got caught is due to the disorganization of the network... that's also why Bama got caught during the Albert Means years. Nick Saban is nothing if not organized and he has an iron grip on that network (indirectly of course so he could never be blamed).
I don't know if the Tressel stuff falls under the same disorganized category or not.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:16 PM ^
The bagmen get you those first few killer recruiting cycles to help the team build into a national power. Then the winning begins. And then it's touch up maintenance from there on.
November 29th, 2018 at 8:39 PM ^
@evenyoubrutus:
I feel like the bagman matters, but winning and success is more important.
I don't disagree. Michigan wouldn't be pulling any five star recruits, and in the running for more, without winning and success and the potential for more winning and success. But all of the things add up: coaching, BAGMAN, teammates, AGENT, campus, ATHLETIC DORMS, athletic facilities, LOANER VEHICLES, weight program, FREE FOOD, distance from home, academics, having the team "feel" like home, AND YET OTHER FACTORS OF WHICH I AM CLUELESS. It isn't any one thing. In fact, I'm guessing the more successful a program, the less is needed in the way of incentives. If you are winning national championships and putting kids in the league, maybe you need less "other" incentives. However, all of it together is part of the package.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:29 PM ^
I thought having an agent for current players was an NCAA infraction and that you lost your eligibility.
I'd say you were full of it if you weren't such a long time poster. I'm a little skeptical that Michigan pays players if only for the reason that we would be better at it than other schools. Isaiah Wilson and his sister got paid to go to Georgia. You're telling me we couldn't put together a better offer sheet?
November 29th, 2018 at 1:33 PM ^
Exactly. UM would have deep pockets and win any bidding war out there. This agent friend went to OSU so I wouldn't trust an f-ing word he says about UM or its players.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:41 PM ^
My contact is a lawyer. He cannot do anything illegal, because it would jeopardize his practice, which is more lucrative than representing players in the league. Apparently, when sports agents became more heavily regulated, there were certain guidelines put into place. However, agents who were practicing prior to 2011, iirc, were grandfathered in. As such, according to my contact, there are some agents who are able to do things much more skeezy, because they've been around a long time. The rules don't apply to them. Obviously, there are always going to be some agents who break the law. My contact is not one of them.
Michigan does not pay players. I doubt any colleges pay players. However, agents can pay them. Probably this most often happens indirectly. (pay the family, which then pays the player.) Bagmen can also pay players.
I don't fully understand the process, but apparently things change when players are seniors. At that point, players are allowed to do things with an agent which they weren't allowed to do previously. As for my contact, I know he is scrupulous in obeying the rules. This puts him at a disadvantage relative to a number of agents, but he is ok with that.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:58 PM ^
An uncle on my wife's side played at Alabama in the 1960's. He has said even then, it wasn't unusual for a fishing boat to show up on dad's front lawn after the kid had big plays in the previous game. There were thick envelopes being distributed at post-game tailgates, fraternities who didn't have to buy their beer, sweetheart jobs, amazing deals on cars, etc.
To this day, there are rich alumni "boosters" surrounding every program, and things coaches decide are none of their business to know.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:50 PM ^
He said Michigan grads currently in the league. So not NCAA student athletes anymore.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:00 PM ^
I think the poster means the process of paying players is not systemic at Michigan like it is at other schools. Coaches may have plausible deniability, but know exactly what's going on at some of the more notorious schools.
For instance, look at Kirby Smart and Georgia. Kirby's first full recruiting class represented a significant uptick from any Richt class in the past decade. Hugh Freeze's classes at Ole Miss are another example. Rogue bagmen and boosters are extant at probably every P5 school, but some coaches seem to fully embrace that part of recruiting, whereas other coaches appear to do their best to recruit by the rules.
November 29th, 2018 at 4:12 PM ^
I don't think Michigan has a specific system for paying players. I think that they will just look the other way if a player does get paid. A school like UGA is literally buying players. I think it is time we do that as well. Just be smart about it and you won;t ever get caught. And if you do get caught just deny it and refuse to fire anyone or take responsibility.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:30 PM ^
This isn't surprising to me at all, and I'm fine with it. So many of these kids come from grinding poverty that I can't blame them for wanting to be paid, especially when everyone else around them is making 6 and 7 figure salaries.
Then again I'm pretty sure that a lot of schools have a "nutrition' program too.
We should probably just start paying the players directly.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:30 PM ^
So UM has bagmen? Yeah, right. Maybe Pizza Bob's gives them free subs once in a while ... but like $10k in a brown paper bag? I don't think so.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:31 PM ^
the "holier than thou" approach by a lot of Michigan fans screaming that we don't do this sort of thing blows my mind. We, just like every other major player in the NCAAF landscape, partake in this sort of exercise...we're just better at hiding it/maintaining a level of plausible deniability. #TheMichiganDifference
There's nothing wrong with it either. These kids deserve every cent for what they sacrifice.
November 29th, 2018 at 10:42 PM ^
Nailed it. The pressure (internal and external) on Michigan is to get great recruits and win a national championship. A lot of these kids get a little something on the side that the coaches "arent" aware of.
People actually believe that a vast majority of these kids have similar academic credentials that a normal applicant to Michigan would have.
Some of these kids are getting some extra benefits, many are well below Michigan's admissions average GPA/ACT/SAT, and also, a good amount have taken a PED.
This is just standard stuff. We can argue about scale, but this stuff absolutely happens at Michigan.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:32 PM ^
So we’ll never catch OSU, Clemson and ‘Bama because they pay players and we pay players too? I don’t understand the argument you’re making.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:32 PM ^
1. Your boy doesn't formally represent any player on our team. He might have a relationship with some guys because of his other clients and he might feel good about eventually making them a client - there might even be an understanding - but formal representation is explicitly prohibited.
2. Every claim that it is impossible to be an elite program without cheating needs to acknowledge John Beilein. He runs as clean of a program as their is in college basketball and he's made Michigan into a top six or seven program in CBB.
3. Of course Michigan football players have received incentives. This doesn't mean that it's going on at anywhere near a level of the Ohio State and Georgias of the world, and it also doesn't mean that Jim is aware and endorsing of it. Example: when I was in school, one DB on the team drove a very nice, brand new car. He didn't have a job on campus (legal or otherwise), just a student-athlete at Michigan from the inner city. This was under Hoke, so I can't speak to what goes on now, but it's not accurate to depict Michigan's players as never having received the illicit incentives that other recruits do...but there are degrees to everything.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^
Question for #2 - wouldn't that be easier on a BBall team where you need a lot less guys to get something going? Football teams are so big that it seems impossible to recruit the number of top guys you need cleanly to make it as a top 5 team every year. Just a pure numbers question.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:54 PM ^
Thanks for your clarification.
- I'm sure you are correct. The player is a senior, and approached my contact to establish representation, because of a referral from previous Michigan players in the same position group currently in the league who have a great relationship with my contact. There are rules to follow, and I'm sure they are both following the rules.
- I would agree that you don't have to cheat to be an elite program. However, I do think that the idea of amateurism needs to change in some way. I don't think it is wrong for a player coming from a position of financial poverty to be compensated in some way beyond tuition, room, and board. I remember someone at Michigan commenting on how it sucked not to be able to buy pizza and to live life, when others profited greatly off of your likeness and your hard work.
- In my opinion, you are probably right with the first item. (Not going on at Michigan to the degree it is happening elsewhere.) However I have to believe that Jim Harbaugh must be somewhat aware. Does he endorse it? I doubt it. Does he say you can't play at Michigan if you are receiving incentives? I don't think so. According to my contact, there are prominent current team members receiving incentives. I won't name names, and I'm sure there is deniability involved.
My thought is that the system needs to be revamped somehow. It is ridiculous for the NCAA and colleges and coaches to rake in so much money and for players not to receive incentives in some way.
You mention a DB who had a very nice, brand new car. When I was a student, I lived next to several Michigan athletes. One of them as a senior was driving a brand new black top of the line Mercedes. More expensive than any car I've owned in my life. And he was not someone who came from a wealthy family. I didn't resent it, then or now, but would like to see the process change in some healthy way.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:11 PM ^
Re: #2 - I agree, as I think the vast majority of people do. I think that player stipends could be increased significantly, but not so far that the smallest schools couldn't afford to keep up, and I think players should be able to profit off their likenesses. EA wants to make a video game? Players get royalty checks. Our WRs want to go to Briarwood and charge $20 per autograph at a stand in the MDen? They should absolutely be able to do that.
I think there's multiple ways to change what's currently allowed in order to benefit the kids without also making the sport simply come down to the 10 schools that can afford to pay all 85 scholarship athletes $700K salaries. There's obvious ways to make the players better off without it turning into a total bidding war.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:14 PM ^
Making public claims that our players are getting paid when Chris Webber tanked our basketball program for two decades for the same thing is not cool. We get busted for extra stretching. C'mon man.
November 29th, 2018 at 7:01 PM ^
According to my contact, there are prominent current team members receiving incentives. I won't name names, and I'm sure there is deniability involved.
Knowing what we've heard about guys like Gary getting offers from Clemson it would not be surprising that a recruit of his level or other top guys like Dax Hill, DPJ, Solomon, Long, etc. would be getting extra benefits.
November 29th, 2018 at 8:48 PM ^
I think you are mostly right. However, my contact stated that the attraction of incentives is especially strong for athletes coming from limited financial resources. For that reason, without knowing anything in particular other than what has been in the news, I think it is less likely for DPJ to receive payments. He and his parents don't need the money.
If you receive no incentives, you aren't owned by anyone, and have much more freedom to do what you want. It isn't rocket science to understand that no one wants to be owned and told what to do and what not to do.
This isn't a perfect predictable science. I'm sure there are 5 star kids of very limited means who take nothing, and 5 star kids who don't need the money but still have their hands out.