What the hell does "stunned" mean? I wished Dantonio would have said he "browned out" or something like that.
OT - Dantonio 10/2 press conference - UPDATED with transcript.
If my football slang is up to date:
Stunned = Had his bell rung = Concussion
Sounds about right.
I can only assume that Dantonio thought that Gholston was so astonished by something that he lay on the ground as if he had suffered a blow to the head. Perhaps someone on the field insulted the honor of a lady.
He probably thought Gholston was twisting the QB's neck.
I hear Gholston's stun easily.
Given the fact that he's a spartan, one can safely assume it had something to do with one of these:
its called "time spent at work."
Is this something the conference can take action on? Did not read the comments in yesterdays post so if this was already covered yesterday sorry. ish.
unless the conference can find eye-witnesses (or Gholston himself admits he was out) who will say that he got knocked out - nothing will happen. Now if he got examined by a doctor later who found he had a concussion, crap would probably hit the fan. Otherwise, Dantonio will skate by on this like he has other stuff.
Maybe Mork meant he was "stunned" that it took Gholston so long to get up from the wind being knocked out of him.
I wonder what she thought about it? Who the hell is Mork?
the head coach at MSU his name is mork, dont ya know?
Sounds like Dantonio works for the Ministry of Truth with his press conferences now.
Your observation is nothing short of double-plus good.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Not one but 2 people recognize and comment on a reference to a 63 year old novel, and others upvote all the comments, so clearly people are getting the reference. Gotta love an educated board!
Did anyone seem the least bit upset at Dantonio's lack of concern over his player's safety? Did anyone in the media do anything that would indicate Dantonio's explanation was not credible or did they simply accept it as fact and move on?
Anybody...and I mean anybody who has played football knows that when somebody has "lost their wind" they dont lay motionless. They act exactly opposite of how Gholston reacted and they thrash around in obvious pain until they get their wind back. It's the lack of motion that scares coaches and trainers which is exactly what Gholston did-to the point of laying on the QB until he regain his bearings somewhat.
What Dantonio allowed was beyond appalling. I will be interested to see if any of the Detroit media MSU apologists say or do anything about it.
Why the medical staff would have let Dantonio put him back in is extremely confusing...
Assuming the team Drs are hired by the athletic department, they might've been afraid of losing their jobs if they crossed Dantonio perhaps?
No doctor worth anything would be worried about that. Since, you know, they are doctors and the whole hippocratic oath thing.
Whew. Good to know that the oath they take makes sure they never make a judgment error. I was worried for a while that doctors we're subject to the same human mistakes the rest of us are. Good to know I was wrong.
... It's a very valid point. Doctors are human and they are not infallable. To think otherwise is naive.
between thinking a doctor is infallible and can't make mistakes and thinking a doctor would go against their own best medical judgement to appease a football coach.
Or, you know, repeatedly fill propofol scripts for Michael Jackson.
Drs can and have done things that aren't in the best interest of the patient's health due to pressures in some form or another. In addition to the job loss pressure, the team Dr might take a lot of pride in having that kind of access to the players - imagine him as a superbooster in terms of access, and him being a total Sparty fanboy, who gets a rush from his access to the team and sideline seats for every game, plus travel to every away game. He might not want to do anything to jeopardize that. All I'm saying is we don't know the Drs motives.
Oh I totally agree. Doctors make mistakes all the time. But you don't need to be a doctor to know to keep a guy out of a game when he was just lying there unconcious for 30 or so seconds after having direct head contact. That is a big red flag saying "he may have a serious injuy, no game is worth a serious injury".
Couple that with the fact that it is one of the few professions where you can literally get a job anywhere you want for very good money and I think Doctors concern for their patients far outweigh their fear of getting fired.
Really? I can guarantee you every single medical student is taking salary into acount when choosing a specialty. Money is important to everybody, especially highly educated people
Moreover, there is a ton of money for a practice that is the staff for the MSU Spartans. That publicity is worth it's weight in gold. Thomas Jefferson in Philly is mostly known because they are the MDs for the Eagles.
Everyone and their mom wants to go there for orthroscopic surgery (over UPenn, Temple, Drexel) simply because of that branding. I mean, if they operated on Vick's knee, surely they can fix mine.
I would have to question that....my wife and one son is a doc (at UM) and I can assure you that money is not a motivation when making a decision about a patient's welfare. We have talked about issues like this countless times. You do what is right for the patient. The day that stops happening is the day you should leave the profession. Money makes a difference when choosing specialties, but that was done probably a couple of decades ago.
If the medical people had reason to suspect that a kid has been knocked out (concussed) and then allow him to immediately go back into a game, then something is tragically wrong. The priority should be the player's well being first and the coach's wishes second, which is why this situation reeks of impropriety.
if they have taken a class/ been instructed on coding procedures a certain way to maximize profit. Ask them if they perform additional tests, just in case (either to avoid a lawsuit or because another specialist is parranoid). This yields the hospital more money. Ask them if any of their salary is RVU based.
If your son or wife is in academic medicine, ask them about sources of funding (Pharma, Biotech, government). Ask them if research is published that shows a medicine is ineffective.
This isn't a fantasy world. If Dantonio (or Hoke or any coach) wants a kid to play the kid will play. Period. There is too much money on the line for Doctors to go against the coach.
I don't dislike Doctors, I love them, but Medicine is a business, just like journalism.
No physician would risk losing their medical license over a football game. These physicians are employed by the hospital which sends them to the game. They would NEVER lose their jobs for making the right decision and keeping a kid out. Dantonio would lose his job the next day. I think it's more likely the doc made a really bad, but honest, call rather than lying to get gholston back in.
I would be happy to respond to your comment, which is painting with an incredibly broad stroke comprised of a couple of years of anti-doc sound bites, but this forum is not the place, at least as I interpret forum rules.
A while back it might have been acceptable to allow someone to play who "merely" got their bell rung. That was before the few minor issues of long term neurotrauma to the couple of thousand players, the plaintiffs, who recently sued the NFL, and before the recent rule change in college football for kickoffs. Junior Seau? Remember him and the issues his death raised? Dave Duerson? Tip of the iceberg.
Do I think that Hoke would risk putting a kid back in who just got knocked out? No, I don't, nor do I think that most coaches would run that risk. I'd like to think that is because the well being of their players means something. Even if it didn't, you run the risk of signficant legal heartburn down the road should something happen to the player, particularly when the event has occurred in front of millions of viewers and with multiple angle digital images. This is precisely why so many of us are asking questions.
lou holtz was famous for bulldozing MD's to get his irish players on the field. he was the same way at minnesota and arkansas.
Considering they could lose their medical license if they knowingly allowed Gholston to go back out there while suffering from a concussion, being dropped as the team doctor by MSU doesn't seem worth the risk.
Yes, doctors will risk whatever and put players back in who are hurt. Yes they value working for a big time sports team more than their oath. I mentioned this in the other thread, but read the book-
From Publishers Weekly Huizenga joined the L.A. Raiders in 1983 as the team internist and resigned in 1990, disillusioned at the way pro football, and the Raiders in particular, treated, or failed to treat, players' medical problems. The title was the tag line of his orthopedic colleague, Robert Rosenfeld, who used it with virtually every injured athlete and winked at the use of all sorts of pills by team members. While president of the NFL Physicians' Association, Huizenga campaigned against the use of anabolic steroids, but his proposal to ban them was quietly squelched by the owners in 1992. Here he continues the battle by detailing the case of Lyle Alzado, an ex-Raider who died in 1992 from, among other causes, decades-long use of muscle builders. The author has suggestions for making football less lethal but seems pessimistic about their adoption. A shocker, a sort of Ball Four about the grid game. Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Library Journal What young, sports-minded doctor would turn down an opportunity to work for the Los Angeles Raiders? Huizenga certainly couldn't. He was the team internist from 1983 to 1990. While mastering the arcane skills of sports medicine in the raw, Huizenga discovered the prevalence of drug, alcohol, and steroid abuse in the National Football League and the extent to which good medicine takes a back seat to the good of the team. His personal crusade for medical care that emphasizes health led to a clash with a team orthopedist, who dismissed a player's potentially life-threatening physical condition with the comment that became the book's title. Management backed the orthopedist. This doctor's view of the inner workings of the Raider organization and the NFL will entertain readers while providing the average fan with a better understanding of football. Recommended for popular sports collections.
Let me say, do I think this is what happened at MSU? No. I think Dantonio really doesn't know what the heck was going on in the middle of the game, someone said it's ok to put him in, and he made the mistake of not giving it a second thought. And I would image any doctor didn't want to put an injurred guy in there, but in the heat of the moment didn't do all the due diligence necessary. A mistake was quite possibly made; but I don't think it's to the point of purposeful action. Negligence, maybe. It's possible to do something wrong without being a super villian in the situation, and I'm guessing that's what happened.
I don't disagree with the premise, but two key differences here - (1) the author of the book was the internist for the Raiders in the mid-80s, so a professional team nearly 30 years ago, and (2) football has changed so dramatically in the past couple of years as it pertains to injuries that it is hard to imagine this type of behavior flying now. Yes, I do expect that some pros find a way to play/convince a doctor to let them play despite medical reasons against it, but a medical professional on the sideline of a college game is probably not going to be swayed by a kid and/or some position coach to let him play if the doctor felt he was concussed. I mean, concussions are THE thing people talk about when it comes to sports injuries right now.
Honestly, I think a mistake was made to let him back out. Maybe the doctor misdiagnosed the situation, maybe Gholston really did respond positively to the tests, maybe the tests were never performed, etc. Regardless, I have my doubts that in today's college football landscape a doctor would knowingly okay a player to go back out after a concussion even if (s)he was pressured by outsiders.
Has sports, and our knowledge changed so it makes it a lot less likely that someone would put pressure a doctor to make that decision? Sure. And in college more so, I would hope. Would no doctors ever risk their reputation and license to help teams win games? That idea is what I was questioning, because they're just as human as the rest of us, and there are as many scumbag doctors as lawyers, bankers, teachers, coaches, or anything else. (OK, maybe not lawyers) And they have and do bend the rules for the same reseasons others do - money, prestige, to succeed, to win, ego. And the reasons not to are similar to coaches cheating; they're so rarely punished that the fear of repercussions doesn't outweigh the gains.
It happens, and the higher the stakes, the more it happens. More often it's incompetence though, whether it's Justin Fargas here, or Grant Hill playing hurt and wrecking his career. Which is why I made sure to point out I think the MSU situation is a lot more likely the latter than the former.
Reed published it? I know Reed well. They're B2B publishers--as in magazines.
No, the book was published by St. Martin's Griffin. Reed used to own Publishers Weekly, so they're mentioned as the copyright holder of the review M-Wolverine quoted.
... and where I'd be more cautious and conservative than some of my MGoFriends.
It is clearly the Spartan medical staff's job to clear Gholston, or not. Just like I presume that Gholston was knocked out from some pretty damned obvious videotape, I also presume that Mark Dantonio was too busy coaching the football game to hold sway over any concussion testing.
But this is why there needs to be more and better questions asked. Who did clear Gholston? What was their clearance based on? What was the operative history before making that clearance? Did Gholston lose consciousness or not? If not, what are we seeing in that video? Does Dantonio agree that a player who is knocked out after a hit to the head is a presumptive concussion case? If in fact Gholston had been knocked out, does Dantonio have enough basic-level concussion knowledge to know that he should not play any more football for at least 24-48 hours? There is of course nothing in that video that looks like treatment of a player who got the wind knocked out of them; who told Dantonio that Gholston had gotten the wind knocked out, and what was it based on?
I presume that the doctor who authorized Gholston going back out there has been contacted by the university and wants his story. If it looks even remotely fishy, I expect him or her to be removed from that position shortly.
Oh c'mon guys! A guy can't take a 30 second nap on a football field without everyone raising hell? Do you know how tiring the game of football is!?
About as tiring as this topic. Oh wait...
Since he was having such a hard time getting to Braxton Miller, maybe he wanted to just spend as much time cuddling with him.
Dantonio's explanation (per your report) leaves me stunned. Not, you know, unconscious due to impact. Really stunned.
It just seems very cavalier in an era where the risks of head injuries are so well known. I'd have a lot of trouble sending my kid to school there, if that's Dantonio's attitude. It's not like this play escaped his notice - play stopped while things got sorted out on the field.
There's no way I'd send a kid back on the field after that hit without at least having a doctor run a sideline concussion evaluation. (Hopefully this happened, but the video suggests Gholston was out cold for a bit - which in turn suggests there may have been no concussion evaluation. Also, you'd think Dantonio would bring up the fact of a concussion evaluation had one occurred after Gholston's collision - no need to leave the public guessing.)
In fact, there's no way I'd send a kid who appeared to black out back on the field period. Ever. It just seems reckless.
If Hoke did this, that idiot known as Drew Sharpe, would have been asking probing questions at the press conference.
Drew Sharp would've already had a 10,000 word essay written about the evils of the Michigan football program and their "win at all costs" mentality.
In fact, I'm not so sure he doesn't have it saved on his desktop mad-libs style just in case.
The wheels are falling off at MSU - check out what a calculus teacher did on Monday.
In a separate thread from yesterday. But apparently that thread has been deleted because I cannot find it.
Because (a) OT, and (b) subjecting this guy to the kind of mockery that ensued was beneath this website.
All Dantonio bashing aside, this just doesn't look good. Injuries are a quagmire on all levels of sports. Whether it's Lane Kiffin avoiding the media at all costs to keep injury reports in house, or the NHL's laughable lower-body/upper-body injury report, teams do everything they can to keep injuries a mystery.
Resuming Dantonio bashing: This goes beyond that. This appears to be a clear example of the coaching staff/medical staff ignoring concussion protocol. It brings up more questions. What is the NCAA policy for concussion testing? Particularly in-game testing? Would the Big Ten or NCAA be able to review this occurrence and hand out a possible punishment?
Going further, I don't think this will reflect poorly on Dantonio unless it gains major steam in big media outlets. If ESPN picks up the story and blows it out of the water, then maybe Dantonio will catch flak for it. Outside of bickering Michigan fans, I don't think MSU and the coaching staff is going to get a lot of heat for this.
Hot. Ice. It's the future, Henry.
Why the confidence that these sideline tests are so unimpeachable?
We don't know anything about anything with regards to concussions. Why is anyone so sure that these tests would never fail to detect a concussion?
Personally, I suspect Gholston passed the tests or else he wouldn't have been back on the field. I just don't think passing the tests, in light of the possibility that he was knocked out, should be sufficient to get him back on the field.
But, the way the system appears to be now, a doc who does not know what happened on the field or is beholden to the player for that information can administer some tests and if the player passes he can inform the coaches that he is cleared to play.
I think the system is at fault and MSU's coaching tree for it's blind adherence to the letter of the regulations. Unfortunately, that is often how bureaucracies function.
This is exactly why it is important to question MSU about if Gholston lost consciousness. To me, someone who has had several concussions, 'stunned' sounds like one of the many euphamisms for a concussion.
Next Question! Times infinity!
Granted, there are reasonable explanations as to other things occupying him at the time, but I might be a little mifffed if my team's head coach took that long to check on an injured player.
Trying to play Devil's advocate here....
There seems to be no outrage or guilt from Mark D', and the Internets (invented by Al Gore) have only a small amount of damnation for him and MSU. Major news outlets like ESPN and SI aren't going all haywire on this. I think its been mentioned, but no reporter -- and we know, those reporters love to tear down programs, not just Drew Sharp -- aren't exploding with condemnation. Obvious, we see this through Maize-colored glasses, and are wont to immediately assume the worst about Mark D'.
So, maybe WE are the ones overreacting? I just want to raise the point. Mental exercise, if you will. Step outside the box. Let's ask the question -- are we overreacting -- what are we missing?
Yeah, well, I've been asking and thinking, but a 300+ lb. guy lying flat on his back 30 seconds without moving, after having his helmet visibly crushed... ok, I got nothing.
No, we arent. WTF is Mark D' so non-reactive to this?
You raise good questions, I think. It seems to me that where our society is right now as far as concussions is where we were in, say, 1970 (if I have my history right) when it came to smoking. There was a lot of publicly-available knowledge in 1970 that smoking caused cancer, but most people didn't live their lives accordingly. I think the same is true with concussions right now. Kirk Herbstreit, for example, probably knows at some level that it's a bad thing to put a guy with a concussion back in a game, but he also doesn't think much of it when it happens. Putting such a player back into a game will probably become widely viewed as outrageous in the near future, but it obviously isn't yet...The admittedly self-serving other side of this coin is that this blog is ahead of the curve on this issue. I remember several concussion-related discussions here that had nothing to do with MSU or any other rival, so I feel safe in saying that a lot of people who read this blog care about the issue regardless of whether it has anything to do with any paricular school.
Any time I still hear the phrase "got his bell rung" I know that the commentor doesn't treat concussions as serious injuries. These are not Hoke's "boo boos" you want to play through. Football players need to separate "toughing" through body injuries and "risking major brain issues" by playing through brain injuries.
are missing the obvious here. Gholston just "hulked up" and everything was all good. Did you not see the Hulkster kick out at 2 after Savage dropped the big elbow, or after Earthquake delivered an Earthquake. If he hulked up it's all good.
Perhaps he was pining for the fields.
It's fjords, but whatever.
Beautiful bird, the Norweigan Blue.
A misconception I have held since I was 12.
Also, I was glad to finally learn that it was "rev'd up like a deuce" not a . . . never mind.
and subsequent (long) slumber was freaking scary. The staff should have taken away his helmet and told him to grab pine for the rest of the game. Maybe Dantonio "didn't know" he was knocked out, but it is his job to know things like that and to draw hard lines for the health of his players.
As a fan and alum, I'd be pissed if Michigan did not do this for one of its players on a similar hit/loss of consciousness, regardless of the player or game.
Myabe he was stunned that Gholston and Will Campbell have the same number of sacks. 1
First off, on "Stunned" there is a common football injury called a "stinger" which may be what he meant. Stingers are caused by hits to the top of the shoulder/collarbone area and they hit a nerve that makes a good chunk of your arm numb. Think of it as a funny-bone but further up your arm.
Secondly, I recall while watching the game that someone on the sideline had a flashlight in hand, apparently ready to do a concussion test. It is quite possible (not plausible) that Gholston was hit, scared, froze a bit, realized that he was OK, came to the sidelines, passed a concussion test, and missed all of 1 play. I doubt it, and I would not have let him play at all, but that's just me.
IMHO the conference needs to step in. There should be B1G (or NCAA) employees (including a neuologist if possible, at least a doctor) at every game as a "Head Injury Crew". One member sits in the booth with replays to see if there is a possible head injury on the field. If so the player is immediately taken off the field and his helmet is taken (can't go back in without a helmet). This independent medical team should check for concussions/other head trauma, and only when THEY are satisfied the player should be given back his helmet and allowed to return to the field.
Take the onus off the coaches/trainers. Head injuries are different. Football players (athletes in general) have the "toughness" quotient to worry about and they want to help their teams. No one will die on the field because they're toughing it through an ankle sprain. Someone can and will die on the field due to a head injury if it's not diagnosed and they're removed from contact.
I played a lot of football (high school and college). I had plenty of stingers. You don't do that with a stinger.
Also, you don't just lay on the ground "scared and frozen" either, especially if you are an "All-American".
I know you are trying to play devil's advocate, I'm just saying those two theories don't pass the logic test.
I was knocked unconcious momentarily in a scrimmage before my senior year of high school (wow, almost 10 years now?! yikes!). My helmet was off and I was not allowed back on the field the rest of the day. That is what responsible adults do.
Marky D is just like most of college football - he is a power hungry man who will do whatever it takes to win. He does not truly care about these kids, they are just a tool to elevate his status and make more money. This is why I like Hoke so much, he truly cares about his players on AND MORE IMPORTANTLY off the field.
and yeah, totally devil's advocate. I've had 1 concussion (hockey soph year of high school) and was out a week until the headaches went away. No questions asked, just done until I didn't have a headache.
Your latter point about the conflict of interest (kid's health vs. coach's/team's success) is why I think concussions need to be treated like a totally separate situation and dealt with by a non-partisan, non-competitive entity.
The only option is to have B1G paid MDs at each game who are unbiased.
at the end of my big post above. Either B1G or NCAA paid MDs/ a whole "head injury team" with an MD, and a couple trainers/nurses, at least one of whom is in the replay booth so that they can see method-of-injury.
Didn't that turn out to be exactly what happened to Pipkins a few weeks ago though?
It's really saying something about Dantonio and the MSU AD when Mgoblog is more concerned about Gholston's safety.
I can't even pretend to have any concern for that kid. Had he broken Denards neck last year - which he obviously tried to do and it is the only explaination for him twisting off Denards helmet while he was already down - would we have any concern for him at all? No. I don't have any concern for him now. Let his brain be bludgeoned into mush for all I care. Fuck those eye gouging, helmet twisting, finger breaking, engineering student beatdowning pieces of shit in East Lansing. There is literally nothing that could happen to those players that would make me have the slightest bit of sympathy for them. Pride comes before the whatever the fuck that moron says when he isn't teaching young men to be boys between the lines.
I don't necessarily agree with your whole post, but I agree with the Fuck State sentiment. Especially now that ND is out of my life, I need to focus that hate on someone else, and Sparty will be it, for now. Fuck 'em. I hope we beat them by 50 and Jake Ryan fucks Gholston's girlfriend, all in the same night.
Could this be it? Could this be the post that mercifully forces the hand of the banhammer?
I've been here for a while, man. I write what I believe and more than half the time you all hate it and get all twisted about it. I still don't care. It's my opinion. You act as if you can't avoid it.
It's all hashed out down below.
Weird step down of the post threads here, but crisis averted.
Yeah, he did that to Denard, but he's still a human person - and a college student. I don't care who he plays for or what he did - he is a person and a 20-year-old kid first. Take this shit elsewhere. The faster the better.
Tread very, VERY lightly.
Why? I've got nothing for the kid. Wouldn't hire him. Can't win with him.,. Can't coach him... Can't do it.
I don't know if you know how to differentiate between being a human being and cheering for a SPORTS TEAM. This isn't about "win with him" or "wouldn't hire him" or "I've got nothing for him." This is about a PERSON and whether or not he has suffered a severe, life-altering injury.
"Let his brain be bludgeoned into mush for all I care?"
Walk. The fuck. Away.
LOL. It's all good, big guy. I guess I will tread lightly around your lofty internet presence. OOOOHHHH a new BLACKHAMS is up. Want to meet me over there so you can chill out?
Brian made clear on the front page that anyone saying "good" regarding this whole things has been, and will continue to be, banhammered. Saying, "I don't care, and they had it coming" is really close to that line.
Hadn't read that part. Been away for a few days. FTR - I never said they had it coming. I respect the leaders wishes and what not. I didn't know it turned into a big thing already. Cheers.
This is pretty straightforward: Dantonio either lied in the postgame or lied today or lied both times.
Come on guys Dantonio stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before the game..who needs medical staffs.
With the way Gholston was acting toward the trainers as he walked off the field I would not be a bit surprised if he lied to everyone on the sideline and told them "I had the wind knocked out of me"
Which is why trainers and medical staff need to do a little more thorough evaluation rather than just take a guys word for it. Football players are macho guys and never want to admit they are hurt, it's up to medical personnel to interrogate and assess to make sure everything is OK. Dantonio characterizing Gholston as being "stunned" is a disturbing admission that falls short of he was never unconscious.
This is off topic for this thread, but is there/could there be a wallpaper for the Purdue game?
keep an eye on the diaries section, they usually go up there.
over who plays because of injury? Do their sideline tests matter? They answer to their boss and if the head coach is unhappy with them, he can just get another medical staff.
" there is no sideline test that would clear him to play. "
That they let Gholston get up after that collision. I was expecting him to be at least mobilized on the field at the time of the incident. You sure don't want to mess around with someones neck or spine after the hit he took.
from stun to kill. (Too low tech to post a video.)
"I don't know how anyone can watch the video and not think that Gholston was anything other than knocked out cold, for at least 30 seconds."
It also seems to me in the YouTube clip of this hit that he's a little more than stunned. One of the officials tapped him on the back, and a few players look like they try to mention somehow that the play is now over and Gholston doesn't move at all for an eerie amount of time. Indeed, when the trainers get to him, he still appears to be motionless, and by then about 20 seconds or so have elapsed. I am not a physician, but he really looked like someone who was out cold and should not have seen the field again.
In any event, it is interesting that Dantonio should apparently use "stunned", being that one of its primary usages is "to knock unconscious" basically. I didn't understand why he was put back in and I still don't - they didn't show much of the sideline activity, but you would hope that staff would be all over him after that and taken his helmet.
You would also definitely hope that, even if Gholston was saying he was OK once he was at least aware again, that they would be checking him out anyway, especially after an extremely brutal hit like that - that's not a situation where you should just take the player's word for it, I would think. If it is ever discovered for certain that Gholston was cleared to play when he should not have been (and after that hit, just the way it looked and the aftermath, my non-medical opinion is that he should have sat and been tested), I would hope all hell would break loose inside at least the Spartan medical staff - that's playing with lives.
I've largely avoided commenting on this issue, but there a few things I thought worth pointing out:
1) I was very impressed with how Braxton Miller handled it. I hate Ohio with the heat of 1000 Suns, but I tip my cap to him there. Very mature and responsible to lay as still as possible until the situation was under control -- as opposed to Gholston's own teammate who crawled out of there.
2) We have had similar situations in the past at Michigan where a player was <stunned>, but in those instances we took the player out of the game. I don't know if this was a medical team call or a coaches call, but I remember RichRod of all people doing this at least two times -- once with Tate and once with Denard. I was shocked that MSU allowed Gholston back in the game at the time and remain so now. The potential for long-term damage just isn't worth putting him back in the rest of the game.
Re: your first point, I don't necessarily know that Miller was laying still so they could properly attend to Gholston. It looked like trainers were looking at him, too, to make sure he was ok. If anything, I would say that it looked like Braxton Miller "lost his wind" and was just getting his breath back lying there.
And I wouldn't point fingers at the teammate who crawled out from under the pile. That's a natural reaction to having people piled on top of you, particularly in the heat of a game.
I am sure that many who read MGOBLOG have had the wind knocked out of them at some point in life. Having had this occur several times in my existance, it is an uncomfortable, scary state to be in. As I recall these events I can clearly state at no time during any incident did I lay completely motionless for 30 seconds or more. You are trying to sit up and stuggling to take air in and laying face down motionless on someone else while having a real-life "flight or fight" reaction is not believable.
I think Brian was appropriate in calling out anyone on MSU's sideline who had the authority to hold Gholston out, given what is going on with retired vets in the NFL who can't remember their name most days.
The B10 office should investigate this occurrance. You can tell when Gholston stood up there was somethiing more happening than losing his breath.
I don't think for a minute that Gholston had the wind knocked out of him, but having the wind knocked out can lead to unconsciousness. I've had the wind knocked out of me several times as well, and most of those times, it was just as you described. However, I did lose consciousness once as well, and goofing around, I accidently knocked a kid out in 7th grade. Someone told us it if you hyperventilated for a minute or so then had someone grab you around the torso, you would pass out. I didn't believe it and neither did the kid who agreed to play the victim. He took about 10 rapid deep breaths, I grabbed him around the middle from behind, and I thought he was faking that he passed out. I let go of him--big mistake--he fell flat on his face. I spent the next 30 minutes in the vice principal's office (back in the days when vice principals always seemed to be ex-military with buzz cuts and looked something like Chuck Wepner).
Section 1, did anyone ask Dantonio about the Jack Allen gouging Jonathon Hankins' eyes? Granted Hankins made some jackass statements before the game, but that combined with the late hits on Braxton Miller out of bounds int he first series, etc., made for a typical Sparty dirty game.
Not looking forward to this crap when they come to Ann Arbor. I just hope Taylor and the boys establish early on that shit will not be tolerated. Maybe they'll act the fools the week before against Iowa in East Lansing, and the Big Ten officials will be on the lookout for tomfoolery.
Yes, as seen in the transcript:
For my part, the Allen/Hankins thing is just routine trench dirtiness. They both had hands in the other guy's face. In that regard, I take little issue with Dantonio. At the same time, I don't blame Urban Meyer one bit for sending the videotape to the Conference. My guess is that it is not going to be a big story; maybe Allen will have to sit out the Indiana game.
But the Gholston/concussion story has, I think, real legs. The fact that Brent Musberger was saying on national television that he thought Gholston was knocked out is one of those kinds of things that makes people in big corner offices say, "We have to do something in this case..."
One thing that I got from the transcript of the presser was that Dantonio seemed to be back on his meds after that last presser where he flipped out with the "Next question" routine. He was a different guy; no doubt chastened by the reaction to his previous freakout.
Michigan v. Michigan State is going to be a nasty game this year.
I will say, I kind of doubt anyone would care about this issue if there wasn't at least a latent sense of moral superiority derived by the fanbase compared to MSU. I'm not saying that Dantonio doesn't deserve to be taken to task if Gholston went out there with a concussion, but my guess is that if this happened at Indiana or Pitt or some other relatively unrelated program nobody here would care that much.
If this happened at Indiana, it might be not as hot of a topic on the board, but I'm sure it would still be posted, either on the board or on the front page. If it happened at Pitt, less so, but they're still Midwest, so maybe. If it happened at somewhere boring out west, say Utah, for instance, then maybe not.
I think the bigger reason that this board cares about it is not due to moral superiority but that this occurred in a game involving our two most major opponents left on the schedule, occurred to a player who tried to decapitate Denard last year, and occurred during what was probably the most-watch college football game last weekend by people who frequent this website. I'm sure moral superiority is involved somewhat, as well, but I think it would be an even hotter topic with more outrage attached if Hoke were the one letting a player return to the game under those circumstances. I'm sure there would be more devil's advocates as well, but there'd be several calling for Hoke's job. I might be one of them.
The reason for the activity is largely proximity to the situation. Gholston is probably the first player on MSU most of us would name if weirdly asked to name the first player on MSU you can think of (at least, the first correct answer most of us would come up with.) He'd also probably come up at or near the top of most-hated current college football players on this board.
As a side note, I was very glad to see that the banhammer was evoked for those who thought that making light of a potentially serious injury was an appopriate response to the situation. It's one reason I like this site.
I do agree that someone would have noticed if this happened at a different school and probably would have posted it, but the undercurrent of "Hoke would never allow that to happen, Dantonio is a d*ck" that flows through these posts is still evident. Also, of course, Gholston is pretty notorious, and while I certainly do not want to see any kid hurt playing football, I would be lying if I didn't find it ironic that a kid who tried to take the head off of a QB with a cheap hit was knocked out trying to do an actual football-like tackle of a QB in a game.
But yeah, banhammer away to anyone who thought Gholston deserved that. He might be a bit of a jerk, but that doesn't condone ill feelings toward his health.
So I showed her the clip without any background info. Her responses:
1) How did he not snap his spinal chord?
**Is he moving?**
2) No, he looks limp and unconcious.
**Should he have been allowed to keep playing?**
3) No way. That is at least a concussion if not something else. He wasn't allowed to play any more, was he?
All this talking about Gholston, Dantonio, and MSU... ugh. Move on.
Even if a concussion is the most likely cause of Gholston’s symptoms, other problems—which may not involve a loss of consciousness-- also can cause temporary paralysis.
I do not see patients with such problems, and I lack the information to do any more than speculate. But, I cannot help thinking about what happened to Zia Combs (despite obvious differences in what happened to Gholston).After an unintentional hit by Ernest Shazor, Combs lost muscular control without a loss of consciousness. One possible cause of that would be a milder version of a “spinal stroke”--caused by a temporary loss of blood supply to the spinal cord. Another, more common cause, is a “spinal concussion,” which can occur when the neck is suddenly extended backwards (as occured with Gholston). Such trauma can cause a temporary paralysis due to transient pressure on the spinal cord . The likelihood of that condition may depend on the duration and nature of his symptoms, which may include sensation disturbances.
My point is that-- even if Gholston did not lose consciousness--any possibility of spinal problems would also raise serious questions about his return to play in the same game.. He would first need tests to rule out spinal conditions, which predispose toward a recurrence of the problem. And even if the tests were normal, such players and their parents might need to be warned about a small but present risk of permanent spinal cord injury if they ever return to play. Maybe such risks are one reason why Zia Combs never played again.
Again, I am not saying Gholston’s problems were as bad a Zia’s or he had a spinal and not a cerebral concussion. All we can do is speculate, since we still lack a clear, complete, or plausible explanation. I hope MSU will provide a better explanation to Gholston’s parents and the B1G.
Dantonio has demonstrated that he has on concern for the safety of students on MSU's campus by allowing his team to beat up students in their own homes without consequence.
Why on earth would anyone expect him to care for his players, or really anyone but himself? He certainly hasn't given anyone any reasons to do so.
Montee Ball was "stunned" on his first carry vs. UTEP. He took a direct hit to the head and fumbled for the first time in his career. He played a few more quarters. He also had concussion issues over the summer.
Throw Bielema in the same boat.
No real point, I guess.
Any length to find something wrong with MSU. The neurologist on the field may be a but more trained in recognizing a concussion than almost all of you.
If you think that there is a good, clear credible story in this case, such that our questions aren't even any good...
...then tell us what that story is.
Did Gholston suffer a loss of consciousness? Yes or no.
If "no," how do you explain the video?
If Gholston did suffer a loss of consciousness, doesn't the neurological literature generally rate that as a moderate to severe concussion?
How exactly was Gholston tested and on what basis was he returned to play? Who made the decision? Did the decision include the history of "loss of conscousness" or not?
and it's clear that nothing I, or someone else, can change the mind of anyone here. It's pointless to get in a debate when people are using straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks instead of contributing to actual discourse on the issue.
If I'm wrong about this and something comes out showing that Dantonion forced him in, I will be the first to one to say that I'm wrong. I'll make a thread and apologize to every single person that I argued with, if that's what you'd like. But then again, I don't think that I'm wrong.
I didn't engage in any straw man arguments. I stated the issue, and the questions, pretty clearly.
And I didn't engage in any ad hominem attacks. I went out of my way, in this thread, to de-personalize it as to Dantonio, and instead questioned the performance of the entire MSU staff as a whole, asking who really was individually responsible for Gholston's clearance. I know Brian Cook went after Dantonio yesterday; I distanced myself from that today, while openly confessing my sympathy for what I think is the correctness of Brian's underlying premise.
I think I set up the discourse pretty fairly. I have quoted Dantonio. I have stayed on point. More than anything, I have asked questions.
I've faced still faced enough flak from the rest of the MGoSphere that I have realized that I can't change anyone's mind on this. If I can't change anyone's mind, I don't really have a motivation to argue this any further when I have much more urgent work in real life to worry about first. I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but I think the hatred towards MSU flows too deeply among the fanbase for most anyone here to have a fair and accurate view of this situation.
I posted some video screenshots in Brian's thread.
Gholston may have lost consciousness, no question. But he may not have. The medical staff were evaluating him within 30 seconds from the end of the play. Gholston looks like he was moving at least 10 seconds before they got there.
If Gholston lost consciousness, then he shouldn't have gone back in. The medical staff who were there probably did not see the video replay that was shown on TV. When they got there, he was probably conscious. They did a quick evaluation of his neck and felt he was fine to walk off on his own accord.
On the sideline, they administer standard concussion tests and he passes the evaluation. So you have a player who denies a loss of consciousness (because he may not realize he was unconscious), medical staff who do not witness the unconsciousness (and are not privy to the replays on the TV), and the player passes all of the standard tests. Do you hold him out of the game?
In hindsight, I think more attention should have been paid to his spine. I don't know if Gholston had a concussion, but he could have had a serious enough neck injury to warrant going to the hospital. The question they should have asked Dantonio is whether Gholston has gotten an MRI and/or CT scan of his head and neck. If so, and I am pretty sure they have done it, then why didn't they get it right away?
Ultimately, I think that if the doctors saw the video of his injury then in spite of their examination they would have erred on the side of caution. But, with the information at their disposal, I don't think they necessarily made an error.
The only movement that I saw from Gholston were his limp and virtually lifeless limbs moving as first Bullough and then Braxton Miller moved their own bodies out from under the unmoving weight of Will Gholston. The simple fact that any movement on the part of Gholston was so weirdly absent (lying face down, arm over Braxton Miller, unresponsive to Bullough underneath him) is enough in my view to think that the kid is simply out cold, which also happens to be the opinion of at least some people on the scene who were eyewitnesses in the stands.
I saw no voluntary movement for a very long time. And when he was able to move, it was in a way that I associate with someone who has been hit in the head, not someone who has had the wind knocked out.
But this is just you and me, talking about our lay-opinions of a videotape. I am frankly surprised, that so far no highly-qualified expert on sports-related concussion has jumped into the fray. I'd love to see that happen.
I searched the internet, including the MSU AD website, yet I could not find the neurologist, which Dantonio says must have examined Gholston. Affiliated with the AD are a bunch of family docs and orthopedists, the latter of whom can function like neurologists in examining certain sports injuries. But head trauma is not their strength.
While I cannot judge their qualifications or Dantonio's credibility, questions about this case seem quite appropriate. Indeed, given Gholston's prolonged immobility, they are unavoidable.
Is lying about having a neurologist on the sideline? This is absolutely ridiculous and why I refuse to argue about this subject any longer.
(although I do not blindly accept what he says in prepared press conference remarks either).
Perhaps there was a real neurologist there; I am just saying that I cannot find one on their staff.
It is also possible that Dantonio truly believed he had a neurologist on his staff but did not. Some docs call themselves neurologists when they have not passed their boards. But there is usually a reason why they have not passed. I have seen some egregious examples.
Clearly, it's not possible to for me to know what truly happened. Nor is it possible for you to know. However, I do think that discussing the MSU medical staff, or claims about them, is reasonable in this case. How this case was handled should be more transparent.
"What neurologist." Then you go along to talk about how you can find no reference to a neurologist on the MSU website. You're clearly suggesting that MSU had no neurologist on the staff.
How would you like the case to be more transparent? Throw out HIPPA so we can have full access to his medical records? Unfortunately, the needs and rights of millions of patients may outweigh the desire of MGoBlog to have access to the medical records of a single MSU football player.
I said I could find no neurologist on the staff of the MSU athletic department. It's easily cleared up if you can tell me what neurologist was there on the sideline to evaluate Gholston. Dantonio clearly said there was one.
As far as the HIPAA concerns, you do point toward an important ethical dilemma, which has been discussed in the medical literature. Are the rights of the patient to privacy (especially a minor) inviolable? What if the parents refuse to let him see a neurologist due to concerns that he may jeopardize his NFL career, if the news is released? Also, what happens to the rest of the players on the team, if a coach pressures staff to do only a cursory review of this player to keep him in the game? (at the end of the SB nation article I posted, there is another link which illustrates how easily this can occur).
Certainly, patient rights to privacy are important, and I did not say that this information needs to be made available to internet chat boards.. But IMO, some kind of review mechanism is needed if a kid shows signs of temporary paralysis, then gets up, and the coach sends him back into the game. Dantonio did not indicate there would be any review. What could make him initiate one, if not media pressure?
St. Dantonio won't play him against Indiana.
I am not trying to troll anyone here, I honestly want opinions. I read the whole thread and I appreciate the takes here of many, including Section1, bronxblue, and also hart20. However there are some comments that are pretty high and mighty.
For those of you who are so adamant on the "if unconscious, then concussion" thing:
(1) could you please direct me (link) to a credible source stating that they're unequivocally linked? (I know there was a bunch of so-and-so-I-know-who-is-a-doctor earlier in this thread, but bear with me).
(2) what are your feelings about boxing and MMA wherein the entire point of the competition is to try and knock your opponent unconcious or cause other material bodily damage. Is that okay because they know what they signed up for? Or just because after they get "knocked out/concussed" they don't "go back in" because the fight is over (dubious, I think repeated trauma is pretty common). Should these sports be banned?
(3) There are various (incongrous) assertions in this thread (ex. - (a) blame the sideline doctors, (b) blame Dantonio, no one listens to the sideline doctors, etc...). I was under the impression that baseline testing was standard procedure and if you pass you can play. It's not just some MSU policy. If people aren't satisfied with that process, blame the process and advocate that stricter standards need to be implemented at the Big 10 or NCAA level. "Saying this is the process, but MSU should have done more,what scumbags!" seems like people are just finding an excuse to throw some vitriol at a rival.
1) here is a peer reviewed study published in the Journal of Athletic Training, a medical journal for sports doctors. It states in there a few times that concussions are possible without loss of consciousness, but if LOC occurs then it is likely a concussion and bottom line is he shouldn't have gone back in the game if he was indeed knocked cold.
2) Boxers & other fighters know that they are taking their health into their own hands (and their opponents) every time they step in the ring. They are wearing the bare minimum of safety equipment and are knowingly subjecting their bodies to blunt force trauma repeatedly for money. They're selling their bodies, in a nutshell. That said, it is their choice, and also, unlike NCAA sports they are not getting a college degree while they are doing their sport. Football players are wearing several pounds of safety equipment to try to minimize the risk to their bodies, so overall I don't think #2 is a fair comparison.
3) One of the problems I have is that Dantonio appears to be uninformed as to what happened to Gholston on the field, even now a couple days later. That shows a clear breakdown in communication between the doctors and the coach, which is not a good sign for the overall safety of players. As to changing the process, that has been suggested on the other threads that covered this topic earlier in the week by many, including myself, to strengthen it to protect the players. Because of that, that's probably why it isn't getting talked about today, because we hashed that out yesterday.
Hope that helps with what you were looking for.
- I don't do too much reading in medical dictionaries, but from the looks of it, this is saying that any blow to the head followed by unconsciousness is, at a minimum, a Grade III concussion. I admit I could be wrong about this, but that's how I'm interpreting the text.
- I think if two consenting adults decide to strike each other in the head with their fists, then they should go for it. I don't watch too much boxing (although Ali is my favorite athlete of all time and one of the only sports figures I'd consider a personal hero), literally no MMA, and I wouldn't let my hypothetical children participate. I'm sure you can guess from my first sentence, no they should not be banned, in my opinion.
- I don't think MSU, as a football organization, did a good job with Gholston. I'll stress that this is my opinion and in no way am I a doctor, but bringing him back in after one play seems like there could have been an error made in haste, and I'd guess there was after reading Dantonio's presser and seeing what I saw on TV. Even if there wasn't an error, I'm firmly in the camp that says the Big Ten and NCAA need to do more about neurological health in contact sports.
Thanks to both of you. Sounds reasonable. Went down the rabbit hole on this and found this from a wikipedia source:
"The most significant effects of concussion are loss of awareness and traumatic amnesia [31, 32]. Opinions are not uniform. For example, a questionnaire was recently sent to physicians at 105 emergency surgery, neurological and neurosurgery departments in Austria. Retrograde amnesia was given as the main criterion for concussion by 88, loss of consciousness by 86 and post-traumatic amnesia (PTA) by 81% .
Definitions are generally qualified by the statement that the loss of consciousness can occur in the absence of any gross or microscopic cerebral damage ."
Anywho, I generally agree LOC probably means concussion and he probably shouldn't have been back in there after 1 play off. Reluctant to call out individuals without knowing the behind the scenes story though. Also, I don't have a problem with what Dantonio said in the PR; seemed reasonable and generally in line with coachspeak on all injuries.
Just for a final world from me, I don't think we have the evidence to call anyone out by name either. It looked to me like they rushed to get him back on the field, but that could have been a combination of people, or one person not having the right information, or maybe something sinister and ugly at the other end of the spectrum (not likely). I used the word organization because I don't know what exactly happened or who might be responsible for a hypothetical mistake.
The links below echo what's already been said in this thread.
Regarding whether or not Gholston had a concussion, the neuropsych tests that Dantonio refers to are known to be unreliable and other clinical findings need to be considered. Lying like a rag doll atop the OSU QB for minutes is not normal.
But whether it was 1.5 minutes or 0.5 minutes, it would not alter the proper medical decision.