OT: Underwhelmed. Michigan finished a distant third for their on-campus tours to Miami & OSU

Submitted by mGrowOld on July 27th, 2021 at 12:01 PM

Over the past couple of weeks I’ve started the college tour-thing with my youngest son.  Because we live in Ohio we visited OSU & Miami first (will visit Case Western Reserve, Oberlin & Kenyon next).  And because I’m a proud Michigan alum we visited Michigan next.   And unfortunately to say the “Michigan Experience” was underwhelming as compared to the first two would be an understatement. 

We started our tour in Columbus and were immediately placed in an empty conference room with a goodie bag of OSU swag on our chair with my son’s name on it.  Nothing terribly expensive or unique but it did give you the impression they were glad you were there.  While sitting in the room waiting for the tour to start there was a giant Brutus Buckeye to one side of the stage with a nice OSU power point presentation scrolling along.  Promptly at 2:00pm someone from admissions greeted us and told us how the next two hours would unfold.  Then about 10 OSU students came running in at full gallop with the leader yelling “O.H.” to the room (I obviously didn’t participate).  At this point I felt like I was at a pep rally and they split us up into 10 small groups for the campus tour (about 5 students/leader). 

The basic pitch OSU gives to prospective Freshmen is “we’re big – REALLY big” and because we’re big you’ll have a lot of opportunities both here and once you graduate.  They walked us around the campus itself (I was surprisingly impressed) and made stops at the library, the student union (that’s where the tour started), a dorm room, a cafeteria, their new rec center (that thing blew my son away it’s so new, modern and huge), the library (also modern and huge) and of course – the football stadium.  The tour ended at the honors hall where the student guide talked about the various opportunities students could have if they wished to pursue grad school both at OSU and other schools.  I have to admit I walked away with a very different attitude about OSU than I had going in.  I mean there’s still a significant academic gap between Michigan and OSU but that gap is closing and their working very hard at it.

Next up was Miami.  Miami again had us in a conference room but unlike OSU it wasn’t an empty one with folding chairs – it was a very nice theatre type environment located inside their admissions department.  They also had swag bags but instead of having them filled they had a table where you could pick up whatever materials you wanted on the various colleges inside the university as well as housing, scholarship and other school information.  They also gave a power point presentation but unlike OSU’s that simply played silently in the background theirs was narrated by the admissions director and was VERY impressive.  “96% of Miami graduates are either working in their chosen field of study or in grad school, 91% acceptance rate for law school, 75% acceptance rate for medical school” and so on.  They talked at length about the ROI for an degree at Miami – showing exactly what four years of tuition, room & board would cost and what the Miami degree would represent financially afterwards.  They showed all the businesses that did on-campus recruiting this past year.  They talked at length about graduate school opportunities and told the students they would be given an advisor to help them achieve their goals.  It was incredibly professional and to the point and definitely resonated with both my son and me.

The campus tour was very much like OSU except they showed the students an example of what the food selections would look like (award-winning allegedly) and spent a lot time in the classrooms themselves.  Tour of dorms, library, and campus itself (it’s freaking gorgeous) but no tour of the rec center or athletic facilities.  FWIW we went and looked at the rec center before leaving on our own and it was nice, albeit quite a bit smaller and older than OSU’s.  Their pitch was pretty simple “we’re very good academically and we know exactly why you are here.  And if you come here you’ll be positioned to achieve your education or financial goals once you leave.”

Last tour was Michigan’s and to say I was fired up for the one would be putting it mildly.  We started the day having lunch at the Brown Derby (had to the first time I’ve ever eaten there without any drinks first) and then we walked over to my old fraternity house, Sigma Chi, which is located next to the  Union.  Place was locked up unfortunately but he got to see the relative “splendor” of an old fraternity house as well as how centrally located it was.  After that it was off to the Regents Center for our tour to begin.  Others here had told me about the hype video they show so I was very much looking forward to seeing what Michigan put forward.  And then things started heading downhill.

We got there about 15 minutes early and were instructed to meet outside the Regents Center where my son checked in.  He was given a virtually empty bag from the M Den and told if we needed to use the bathroom before our tour to go to the international center and use theirs.  No video, no PowerPoint, no nothing.  Just at 2:00pm the tour started and they were very insistent that anybody late would need to reschedule – no waiting!  Our tour guide was a student just like OSU & Miami but unlike their tours that focused on what the incoming student would experience his presentation focused on his personal feelings & history with Michigan.   We stood outside West Quad where he told us about dorm life but we never went in and never saw a room (I told my son not to worry – dorm rooms are dorm rooms everywhere).  We stood outside the Michigan Union, again never went in, where he told us about John F. Kennedy’s speech launching the Peace Corps 60 years ago.  We then walked over to the law school where we stood outside in the courtyard, so pretty, where he talked about the law library but we didn’t go in.   Next stop was standing outside on University where he talked about the classes he took and gave us yet another history lesson on Ann Arbor and why it wasn’t the state capital.  After that we stood in front of U.G.L.I. (it’s not ugly anymore – who knew?) where he talked about the building’s renovation.  Last stop was in the diag where he talked about the legend of walking on the M (you’ll fail your first blue book exam) and pointed to Angel Hall and told them you’ll probably take a lot of classes in there.  Then it ended.

No mention of cost or ROI like Miami.  No tours of buildings and facility like OSU.  No mention of Michigan’s academic prowess nor what grad school might be like.  LOTS of talk about the history of Michigan and Ann Arbor itself which candidly, neither my son nor any prospective student seemed to give two shits about.  I know it really doesn’t matter in the great scope of things – Michigan will turn away WAY more students than they’ll admit – but it was still quite disappointing.  It felt like they didn’t think they needed to “sell” the students on coming here so they really didn’t even try.   And in some ways the day felt like a metaphor for the football team – all talk about the glorious past and no focus on the here and now.  He’s still going to apply and if accepted I’ll still pony up the insane out of state tuition costs but man I was so hoping for more.

Comments

ILL_Legel

July 27th, 2021 at 12:21 PM ^

Thanks for sharing this.  My two oldest are beginning the college selection process.  The one who can actually get in to Michigan has her heart set on the east coast.  This won’t help but I will share for transparency.

I have a bad feeling the second one is headed to Michigan State but at least it is in state and will help defray the cost of his sister’s education.

blue in dc

July 28th, 2021 at 11:31 AM ^

I have two nieces who live in Michigan.   Both had their hearts set on other places but ultimately chose Michigan and were very happy.   If you are in-state, there is no better value (unless you get good scholarship money from those northeastern schools).    They decided to go the low cost route and not be in student loan debt before going to grad school.

ILL_Legel

July 29th, 2021 at 1:51 PM ^

I made a deal with my kids when they started first grade.  I will pay for four years to any school they can get into in the world except Ohio State (yes, for real).

It motivated my oldest and she should be able to get into just about all of her choices.  We made saving for the 3 kids education the number one goal so they are good for four years.  The oldest is counting on leftover money from her siblings.  They were not motivated by my deal to pay for anywhere in the world they can get in.  It is fascinating to watch 3 kids raised almost exactly the same have such different interest levels in education.  My son says he just hasn’t found anything he is interested in yet.  I hope that is it or he needs to be an amazing entrepreneur.

Holmdel

July 27th, 2021 at 12:25 PM ^

Sorry to hear about your experience.  The Michigan "admitted students day" visit with my daughter four years ago was so good it seemed like everyone involved should quit school/their admin jobs and just do that for a living.  But our campus tour was just okay.  And not as good as the tour I led my daughter on afterward.

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 12:26 PM ^

"No mention of cost or ROI like Miami."

My wife and I are both alums. Yes, it'd be nice to have our kids go to UM, but we just don't make a ton of money, and weren't able to save much for the kids. So my mantra to my kids is "ROI, ROI, ROI; and take whatever free money someone puts on the table'. 

UM gave a niece a partial scholarship that would have covered like 40% of her tuition. Wayne State gave the same girl a 95% scholarship. She graduated with a CS degree, was able to cover other costs by living at home and working, and was employed by GM upon graduation making a nice salary right out of school. 

Her UM friends are drowning in debt right out of school. In 10 years I doubt that anyone will care much about her undergrad degree. 

ROI with college is huge. And frankly all the big Universities that I think are cool have priced themselves way the hell out of our price range. 

Carpetbagger

July 27th, 2021 at 12:50 PM ^

I can't imagine paying for a CS degree or something similar at UM. Unless the field you are aiming for is hyper-competitive, or very small or you are aiming for the C-suite it makes little difference where the degree comes from, so long as you have one.

Now, if someone else wants to pay for it, great, it's a first class institution. But I'm not paying more in a year than you would somewhere else in 4.

I don't regret paying for my GVSU degree as I went almost 30 years ago. The only things that have really limited my earnings potential have been my choices and behaviors, not where I got that Accounting degree.

Nothsa

July 29th, 2021 at 11:42 AM ^

I agree completely. My oldest daughter got into Michigan in-state. She was also accepted at  Stanford, Carleton, and MSU. Free ride at MSU, plus great guarantees of paid research labwork. Significant need-based $ in offers from Carleton and Stanford. Nothing from Michigan. They didn't even suggest a visit, whereas the other three schools aggressively recruited her post-offer. If she'd gone to Michigan, it would have cost many thousands of dollars more than the next most expensive choice. Of course an undergraduate UofM degree is valuable, but... needless to say, she didn't attend Michigan.

Other parents we talked with reported the same general experience. It seems that Michigan is not very interested in great in-state kids. Perhaps they simply take up slots that could be filled with out of state students that pay more tuition.

taistreetsmyhero

July 27th, 2021 at 12:29 PM ^

It's been 14+ years since my campus tour, but it sounds like not much has changed. In comparison, when I went on a residency tour of UofM back in 2017, they pulled out all the stops that you described for OSU and Miami. I toured ~20 other programs, and Michigan's was definitely near the top in terms of salesmanship.

Here's another anecdote that might be telling: My dad was a long-time administrator at Michigan (served as a department chair for 25 years). He was in several LS&A admin meetings talking about enrollment strategies. Many many department heads felt that the whole idea of pitching things like ROI are against the ethos of the university. They believed that their only goal is to teach students the field, not to prepare them for professional careers per se. There was also a lot of arrogance towards non-academic career paths. 

UMFanatic96

July 27th, 2021 at 12:33 PM ^

Either your tour guide was awful or Covid has restricted how they do tours in terms of going inside buildings and what not. 

I was a tour guide my Junior and Senior years at UofM (2017 and 2018) and I can tell you your tour is nothing like what we would do then (which is why I'm thinking this is maybe Covid related). 

We would take you into West Quad and walk you through a model dorm room as well as model dorm bathroom. We would walk through the Law Quad and library, Angel Hall, the Union, etc. 

As far as the actual information the tour guide went over, it seems like they could have done better in that aspect. We were told and memorized the tuition numbers, graduation rates, grad school info, etc. Perhaps you had some bad luck in that regard with the specific tour guide you received. 

Regardless, I do think you're probably overreacting to this tour a little bit by saying Michigan will turn away "WAY" more students based on how your tour went. I'm sure plenty of others on this board have done the campus tour for themselves or their kids and didn't have this same negative experience.

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 12:39 PM ^

"Regardless, I do think you're probably overreacting to this tour a little bit by saying Michigan will turn away "WAY" more students based on how your tour went."

I think he meant that Michigan gets a crap ton of applications and so can be very choosy. But you bring up good points. I suppose the question for me would be with the CDC and the State loosening restrictions, as well as other colleges doing that, why would Michigan not even have people go in? 

UMFanatic96

July 27th, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^

You are correct, I did misunderstand his point there. And yeah, I'm not sure why Michigan can't make it work. That being said, restrictions are likely to be increased in the coming days--starting with the CDC's announcement at 3pm saying vaccinated people should resume wearing masks in certain situations.

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 12:44 PM ^

Which is fine, I have a box of masks in my cars so I always have a fresh one if I need one. 

If it is COVID, this might just fall under the 'Michigan's Covid response seemed to kind of suck' category. It seems like you could have the tour and just ask everyone to mask in the buildings. 

James Burrill Angell

July 27th, 2021 at 4:19 PM ^

It's COVID related.  None of the buildings are open until the fall. All of the summer classes were essentially online. Orientation for incoming freshmen is online. I was asked to take a meeting with an administrator two weeks ago who wanted to meet in person (which was a shock because I've only done Zoom with UM people since March 2020) and we ended up sitting on a bench in the Diag while we talked. They wouldn't let us into his office. Campus isn't going to open up until fall.

mGrowOld

July 27th, 2021 at 12:50 PM ^

"Regardless, I do think you're probably overreacting to this tour a little bit by saying Michigan will turn away "WAY" more students based on how your tour went."

I didnt say that though.  What I was saying was Michigan's application to acceptance ratio is still insanely low (it's really hard to get admitted) so regardless of how crappy the tour was they'll still have a surplus of applicants to available seats.

My point was actually just the opposite of what you thought I was saying.

First And Shut…

July 27th, 2021 at 4:33 PM ^

My recollection of the school tours we took with our kids is directly correlated to the enthusiasm and skill of the tour leader - we had great ones at Miami and ND, and a mediocre one at Wisconsin. Hence the first two schools rose greatly in our minds, while we were quite disappointed with UW. Some of this may be related to the size of the schools - Miami and ND have nice campuses that are relatively compact, while Wisconsin's is sprawling.

Because my wife and I are UM grads, we didn't take a tour here, but the kids had plenty of opportunities to see the campus on football weekends. And there they saw scores of happy, excited kids heading across campus toward the stadium. No professionally-crafted sales pitch could ever match the reality of those experiences.

Both kids were admitted by UM and chose to go there, and 15 years later are happy with their choices. But if they hadn't had the UM bias, the tours at Miami or ND might have sold them on those schools.

In another thread, a poster noted that UM is in process of training its tour leaders, and suggested that the initial 2021 tours are not yet be at the desired level. So, with lightly-trained leaders and closed buildings, its no wonder the tour seemed pretty dry.

1989 UM GRAD

July 27th, 2021 at 12:38 PM ^

Our son is a current junior at Michigan...so we're only a few years removed from the application process.  Our son had been to Ann Arbor hundreds of times before he started there, so the tour was mostly irrelevant.  He also had the advantage of his very small high school getting a private tour for their entire grade of about 50 kids.  

That being said, I've heard similar stories from parents of other prospective students.

But I'll say the same thing to you that I've said to them.  

You just can't judge a school - and predict the kind of experience you'll have there as a student - based on the tour.  

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^

That's 100% true. My tour and orientation ( in '91... damn, that was a long time ago....) made me think I was going to LOVE the campus atmosphere. After my first year I was miserable. Everything was so charged and political I felt completely isolated. Game days with buddies were my salvation, but the day to day was a grind. It was worse because I commuted, but living on campus the next year didn't improve things much. 

UMFanatic96

July 27th, 2021 at 12:43 PM ^

The real crime is the tour can only be so long and cover so much. When I was a tour guide, I made it a point (as did others) to always stick around and give recommendations of places to go and things to do after the tour while they're in Ann Arbor. 

I wish UofM had multiple tour options--one as the current model with the 90 minute tour, and then maybe a longer option (3-4 hours) with a lunch break or something. Hell, the university could even partner with a local establishment to provide food.

imafreak1

July 27th, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^

I am happy to hear that colleges are offering in person tours again. When my son was looking for a school last year there was none of that. We took virtual tours and walked around empty campuses.

Unfortunately, our society is in a place right now where exclusivity is king regarding schools. The more poeple you turn away the more exclusive you can say you are and therefore the better you are. Which feeds back into more applications and therefore a lower acceptance rate of applications and on. 

Right now, Michigan is in a different category of exclusivity than Miami or OSU. Michigan is in the second tier just down from the most coveted Ivies. So, they have to try less. And they can also charge a premium. 

In-state Michigan is probably a great deal but out of state Michigan is considerably more than most other state flagship schools. The premium is only worth it if you've got the money and put significant value in the Michigan brand.

My son applied but while it was a nice fantasy he was unlikely to ever go to Michigan because quite honestly it is a whole lot more money than other good state schools and not really worth it. 

1VaBlue1

July 27th, 2021 at 1:20 PM ^

"It felt like they didn’t think they needed to “sell” the students on coming here so they really didn’t even try."

It's this attitude that will push the top of the top cream to other schools.  The 'Michigan Difference' will begin to fade if the best cream goes elsewhere.  I mean, you can't say you're academically superior if the best students all go somewhere else.

I doubt a campus tour will have that effect by itself, but it seems like another symptom.  You get enough symptoms, eventually a diagnosis will be made...

michengin87

July 27th, 2021 at 4:26 PM ^

I'm from Ohio and my daughter is currently a student at UM.  She has a friend who was interested and had outstanding grades from one of the best high schools in Ohio as well as a 99th percentile ACT.  She played in the jazz band and other activities.  She met with the Dean at UM before she made her final selection.  OSU was offering half tuition.  When asked what UM might be willing to do, the dean at UM Ross basically just stared at her.  UM is basically only offering need based scholarships these days.  She liked UM but her father who wasn't an alum like me was not going to pay the out of state tuition at UM ($53k / yr) when he could get OSU for $6k.

Bottom line is there was no selling just like there isn't at the Ivy's.

blue in dc

July 28th, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^

As I noted earlier, (but not very clearly) is that after my daughter was accepted, they did much more to try to sell her on the value of Michigan (which they pitched pretty hard as a huge, talented and successful alumni base who generally love being Michigan grads).   That has been my experience and has definitely had value.  Is it worth lots of student loan debt, probably not.   The people who unfortunately get squeezed out of Michigan is not those who can qualify for financial aid, or those who come from wealthy families, it is the large group between those extremes.

blue in dc

July 28th, 2021 at 12:42 PM ^

As I noted earlier, (but not very clearly) is that after my daughter was accepted, they did much more to try to sell her on the value of Michigan (which they pitched pretty hard as a huge, talented and successful alumni base who generally love being Michigan grads).   That has been my experience and has definitely had value.  Is it worth lots of student loan debt, probably not.   The people who unfortunately get squeezed out of Michigan is not those who can qualify for financial aid, or those who come from wealthy families, it is the large group between those extremes.

MGoStrength

July 27th, 2021 at 1:47 PM ^

LOTS of talk about the history of Michigan and Ann Arbor itself which candidly, neither my son nor any prospective student seemed to give two shits about. 

I wish I could say I'm surprised UM is focused on their past more than present or future.

MGlobules

July 27th, 2021 at 1:49 PM ^

No video! No PP! No swag bag! I hear they sold Manhattan for a mess of glittering beads.

I just happened to do A2 and Oxford, OH with my daughter, informally. Oxford had little attraction for us. Tiny, remote, and we had to drive past a lot of Confederate flags in Indiana and Ohio to get there.  

mGrowOld

July 27th, 2021 at 1:58 PM ^

I find it interesting that people seem to be focusing on the swag bags.  Just to clarify - in no way will the presence or absence of swag have one thing to do with my son's final decision.  That would be beyond silly.

But i think it has everything to do with how the respective schools view these tours.  Two schools sold their institution and wanted the student to want them.  One acted as if they were doing us a favor by showing us the outside of some buildings.

And if you want to see a shit-ton of Confederate flags you need to drive north of Ann Arbor a bit but trust me - Michigan has just as many racist yahoos as Ohio does.

 

MGlobules

July 27th, 2021 at 5:24 PM ^

Of the latter, I am certain. We saw lots in Maine and Vermont, too. But you punched up the swag bags in your narrative. And--this is a matter of personal preference, of course--the Miami campus is not, in my view, as attractive as UM's. Unified architecturally, yes. But would get old, in my view. 

bringthewood

July 30th, 2021 at 1:48 PM ^

I am pretty sure they were not from Ann Arbor. Drive around rural Michigan and you see the Trump signs and confederate flags. I think the poster was making the point Oxford is in the middle of no where.

A friend of mine went to Miami and made money hauling kegs from out to town to Oxford because no place in Oxford sold kegs in the early 1980’s.

Leatherstocking Blue

July 27th, 2021 at 1:54 PM ^

It was unfortunate that our college visit to Michigan with our son happened during a raw March day a few years ago when students were on spring break, the Union was boarded up, the streets looked bombed out, and South U was no longer the quirky, unique street it was in the 80's but instead had no less than 3 high rises under construction. How do you explain what Village Corner was like when there is a 12 story building there instead? The CCRB was a dump (I hear they are tearing it down) and Markley looked run down. He looked at me and said, "Yeah, this is a big no." Of the 30+ campuses we saw, there were at least 25, maybe 30, that were nicer. It broke my heart.

Miami is where he is heading in a few weeks and he couldn't be happier with his decision.

MGoBender

August 17th, 2021 at 9:35 PM ^

Miami is great, your son will love it.

Wish you got a better look at Michigan. To anyone reading this that will be in the college search: check out the IM building if you want to see a rec center. It is a beautiful rec center after the renovations that still keeps with the nostalgia and classic architecture. You can look out from the balcony over the track where Jesse Owens set 4 world records and then go play ping pong or basketball or lift or whatever.

Go walk down Liberty street to see how awesomely the campus is integrated with the city.

Check out North Campus and specifically the BBB - that building is boss and was one of my favorite study spots.

CCRB is a dump and is going away. Markley is a dump and probably has a limited life span... they've renovated every dorm around it. Not a leap to think that it is on the chopping block for either total destruction or major renovation. MoJo is beautiful and right across the street.

mGrowOld

July 27th, 2021 at 2:17 PM ^

It was a long time ago but oldest got his undergraduate from Kent State with his MBA in Urban Planning from Cleveland State.  Daughter got both undergraduate and graduate degrees from Kent State and youngest son from the practice marriage went to Ohio University for a semester and decided college wasnt for him.

HooverStreetRage

July 27th, 2021 at 2:22 PM ^

Went on a LOT of college tours in the last few years for the kids. So many factors played in to whether the tour was a hit or not.  Weather, time of the school year (hubbub on campus or not), mood of my kid on that day, but in my mind it was the student guides that would make or break the tour. Enthusiastic and knowledgeable (but not over-enthused or pointless trivia-spouting!) guides would outshine a crappy tour program, and lackluster guides would make a great campus or tour program unappealing.

But yes, our UM tour experiences were disappointing...