OT: Any other parents worried about young men struggling?
Noticed my son's honor section at school was overwhelmingly girls. Poked around on google and learned gender achievement gap is a modern phenom - gen Y and Z girls take tougher advanced courses, higher GPAs, majority of top 10% of their graduating class, complete undergrad on time (boys taking 5 and 6 years, if they finish), 60/40 girls to boys earning bachelors, masters, professional degrees, and young women are dominating a lot of industries.
Gen y and z boys seem to glorify immaturity and slacking, e.g. Barstool. Video game addiction has gone mainstream, even popular boys are obsessed, e.g. Fortnite. Don't read for leisure. Lots of apathy, disengagement, aren't as focused on academics and career – don't seem to be adapting to the demands to succeed in modern hyper-competitive economy.
What is going on?
February 26th, 2018 at 5:46 PM ^
I'm glad I didn't have video games of today's quality when I was a kid. I think my step brother and I might still be in my parents' basement. I'm only half joking.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:00 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
Does this mean we are all going to be working for women one day?
February 26th, 2018 at 5:19 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:20 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:26 PM ^
...women are still at a disadvantage in the workforce - at least at times - but the structure of our schools is poorly suited to boys. I remember seeing a relativley brief piece on TV about an all-boys schools where the students were doing very well academically. Part of its successs seemed to stem from the fact that it had the boys engage in physical activity for several hours each day. Speaking purely on an anecdotal level, that made a lot of sense to me. My (male) friends and I had a lot of steam to burn off each day when I was a kid and a teenager. Sitting in a classroom for hours on end could be difficult.
What I hope - however naively - is that this situation can be addressed without people falling into camps. We could, in theory, have an educational system that works well for girls and boys. A system that serves girls well doesn't have to be a system that serves boys poorly - and vice versa.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:30 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 7:05 PM ^
I hope more people become comfortable with the fact that there are differences between the sexes if we're talking in broad generalities about all women and all men but that any given woman might be more masculine in the traditional sense than many men are and that any given man might be more feminine in the traditional sense than many women are. There is no contradiction there. The two groups overlap quite a bit. I think/hope people on one side can learn to look at people individually rather than as fulfillments of stereotypes and that people on the other side can learn not to be so threatened by group-level facts.
Put another way, might a given woman be a great auto mechanic? Sure, why not? But are males as a group more likely to be interested in cars than women as a group. It seems so, and that's fine.
February 26th, 2018 at 5:43 PM ^
For the interesting post. Yes, it is a concern, especially in a time when men's rights are under assault. Unfortunately, the popular pc narrative doesn't accept these uncomfortable facts. Thus, you get downvotes. I, for one, wish for everybody to have opportunity, fulfillment and success in life, no matter their gender. And of course, I will get downvotes since men are evil and don't deserve any rights, lol.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:28 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 7:06 PM ^
Your last sentence... lmao
February 26th, 2018 at 7:25 PM ^
When one group is systematically discriminated against, it takes focused effort to fix that. Feminism is the fight for equal rights in areas where the status quo discriminates against women. I will agree that it gets off-base or goes too far in certain areas, but so too does any movement. Your viewpoint is just an unfair mischaracterization of feminism.
February 27th, 2018 at 12:52 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 7:38 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 8:23 PM ^
Thank you for making my point. You looked at the result of boys having weaker performance and concluded that it's because males are "weak and lazy individuals." By that logic, you could look at women making less in the workforce and conclude that they are, by your own language, "weak and lazy individuals", right?
Either way, you can't draw that conclusion without tests and controls. I didn't say anything was a result of PC feminist culture, but there is a clear double standard, that you so graciously pointed out with your words, about how conclusions are drawn about males that are not allowed to be drawn about females, despite similar data points.
February 26th, 2018 at 7:28 PM ^
so much as that men are in need a self-empowerment movement to address issues like the one discussed here...and ideally it would not be led by white nationalists like the current "men's rights" movement.
February 26th, 2018 at 7:41 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 9:47 PM ^
Which rights am I losing again? And you'll get most downvotes because you're an idiot.
February 26th, 2018 at 10:22 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:36 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 7:57 PM ^
February 27th, 2018 at 1:27 PM ^
I think you also quoted John F. Kennedy in your speech. So theres that.
February 26th, 2018 at 5:36 PM ^
When I was in high school in the 1990s this was the case as well. In college it evened out or flipped (at least for my subjects, economics, math, and law). Gen X was the original slacker generation.
February 26th, 2018 at 5:39 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:44 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 7:51 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:45 PM ^
In my humble opinion, it all starts from within. Add a dash of solid parenting, and you have a recipe for success.
The unfortunate reality is that, it’s not cool to be smart when your a young guy. (At least when I was young).
February 26th, 2018 at 7:59 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 8:05 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 9:58 PM ^
I think there is something to the notion that many young guys think that cool and smart can't overlap. As a senior in high school some of my friends were bemused by the fact that I was graduating with honors. They thought it either had to be a mistake or that I somehow gamed the system to cheat my way into honors. I was flattered that they thought I was too cool for honors, but in thinking back, they seemed to think more highly of me if I were clever enough to cheat my way to honors than if I were smart enough or worked hard enough to actually earn the accolades.
February 26th, 2018 at 5:47 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:04 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:30 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 5:58 PM ^
I would hesitate to find gender differences in school or later life to be a problem in themselves. There are natural differences between the genders and that's fine. We should celebrate the achievements of young women while making sure that everybody has the opportunities to succeed and find fulfillment in life whatever path they choose. If their future plans are undermined by underachievement, then we should be concerned. But some people, maybe more likely males, are late bloomers. Or they may prefer a career that requires less academic rigor. At the same time, we need to make sure that these scholarly women have the opportunity to pursue their occupational desires after school. But as I pointed out above, it's also perfectly fine if they freely choose to be less ambitious in their careers.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:10 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:15 PM ^
and the government's child support system have created the New American family.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:22 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:27 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:32 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:40 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:40 PM ^
I'll be one of the few middle-aged/old people to say that I think kids have it tougher or at least perceive it to be tougher than we did in the 80s. My sense is that in middle/upper middle class American there's a fear that if you aren't at or near the top the economy has no place for you (that may be true although any functioning economy has to have a lot of places). Anyway, I think in my era there was a feeling that you could be average and be fine whereas now I think some kids (perhaps boys than girls) decide that if all they can achieve is average why try?
I read an article a few years ago that some competitive colleges are becoming something like 60/40 women to men based on the applicants they receive, which from a social standpoint may be more of reward for the men than the women.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:41 PM ^
I'll be one of the few middle-aged/old people to say that I think kids have it tougher or at least perceive it to be tougher than we did in the 80s. My sense is that in middle/upper middle class American there's a fear that if you aren't at or near the top the economy has no place for you (that may be true although any functioning economy has to have a lot of places). Anyway, I think in my era there was a feeling that you could be average and be fine whereas now I think some kids (perhaps boys than girls) decide that if all they can achieve is average why try?
I read an article a few years ago that some competitive colleges are becoming something like 60/40 women to men based on the applicants they receive, which from a social standpoint may be more of reward for the men than the women.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:43 PM ^
In my 17th year of teaching, I've had several epiphanies about what I do in my classroom and how I engage my students. They're not some clean list, not the makings of some eBook, but they are things I know and trust about what I do. Many of them are long and complicated, but one of the most important ones is not.
"I can care a great deal about your success in this class, but ultimately, I should not care more about your success than you do."
If a kid shows me that they care, I will go to the mat for them, I will do everything in my power to find ways to help them. And I have had kids, where even when we didn't make the level of success they wished to find, we made them better, the journey made them better. While I am judged on my student's test scores and outcomes, I obviously have to care about their scores and outcomes, but it's much harder to do so when they don't outwardly demonstrate, even after discussions with them, that they really are that engaged.
Generally, it takes an extrinsic motivation (keep my grades up so I can play hockey, get my grades up so I can get my Xbox back, etc) to bring some of them along. But others of them are there, just floating along. My only hope is they find something that they truly care about and can make it into a career. It doesn't have to be my class, but I hope they find it.
February 26th, 2018 at 9:07 PM ^
I recently read the book “drive” by Dan Pink, which was eye opening about the concept of intrinsic motivation and how extrinsic motivators tend to diminish effect over time and even lead to illicit behaviors (lying to get a bonus; cheating to get an Xbox for good grades). Fascinating read.
February 26th, 2018 at 10:31 PM ^
February 26th, 2018 at 6:44 PM ^
everyone on this board, and a whole bunch of people on this board have met some or all of my kids. among our kids we have been blessed with 5 boys. thus, i may be familiar with the task of raising boys.
1. socialization - if at all possible homeschool your kids at a young age, and do not age segregate your kids. integrate them regularly with sports, work, neighbors, church/temple, etc. people say 'how will they get socialization'? well, all children are fools (i do NOT mean this in a pejorative manner) and don't know how to socialize. so if you were going to teach them, say, spanish, would you put them in a room full of non-spanish speakers and say, 'learn'? no. you have a teacher. don't expect them to learn to behave in a roomful of fools (again, not meant pejoritavely). as it relates to socialization there is a truism: more is caught than taught. so if they aren't doing what you teach them, maybe they are 'catching' lots of bad habits from their friends or (looks at self) you/me/us/the parents/TV/videos.
2. no TV/video games/cell phones - this does not mean a complete black out, but nearly so. if you actually watch TV these days many/most shows ridicule the family unit, dad is always the fool and/or evil one, and the brave, clever young person is the paragon of wisdom. and language. and sex. so don't be surprised when your kids act like what they watch. dumb phones with no cameras for the kids when needed for events and necessary communications.
3. run a parent directed home, not a kid directed home. loving but very clear command structure. as they show initiative and maturity increase their freedom and ability to make decisions for themselves. .
4. work. every day, chores, tasks, skills, building, yard work, laundry, dishes, whatever matches where you live. work beside your sons. encourage them. teach them. share with them. they'll eat it up and you will be blessed for spending the time with them.
5. spoil them with time, not stuff.
6. faith - and i'll say no more about that one out of respect fpr the rules of the board.
February 26th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^
I love your list. I was only blessed with four children, the eldest a boy and the rest girls. I homeschooled them all the way through (all four went to college). My "rules" are similar to yours. 1. Socialize with a cross-section of humanity, including all races, sexes, ages, and socio-economic groups. The world is big; be a part of it. 2. No screens until 5 p.m., except during March Madness (so sue me, I love basketball). 3. You are not identified by being a boy or girl; you are a curious and capable human being. If you want to help your dad roof the house or change the oil in the truck, go for it. If you want to try to create your own muffin recipe and sell it to relatives to raise money for camp, I'll buy your ingredients. You can do laundry no matter who you are. You can chop firewood. You can go fishing during morning recess. You can knit. I'm less inclined to blame society as a whole for boy-girl inequities and to point the finger at an increasingly homogenized, one-size-fits-all education system.
February 26th, 2018 at 10:46 PM ^
michigan sports are the exception to no TV. the TV gets unplugged here just past the new year, to be plugged in just before college football season. and yeah, the girls get to do some of the 'harvesting' of the livestock and the mucking out of the barn and hen house, just like the boys do. my girls can milk faster than my boys. might be some kind of genetic gift, but there you have it - they are lightning fast.
February 26th, 2018 at 6:45 PM ^
I'd say it's a few things:
- girls mature earlier than boys
- they "play school" better (are more organized, more focused when sitting & listening, etc.) than boys
- the inherent male dominant biases in STEM (and in general for females getting an advanced education) are falling away, thus girls making huge strides in those subjects over the last 30 years and indeed in girls going to college overall. In short, we used to not see value in a girl going to college/grad school 40 plus years ago. now we do see value in that
- Video games hook boys at a greater rate than girls at these ages.
- for me, I see (generally) fewer ego issues in girls meaning: they are more agreeable to learning difficult material. Many boys have an attitude of, "it's either too easy b/c I'm a genius so I don't need to work hard to do well or it's so hard even for a genius like me thus it must not be all that big of a deal if I don't do well b/c it's SUCH (*eyeroll*) advanced material that only phds in astrophysics would need to understand it. Either way, the boy's ego convinces himself that the extra effort isn't all that necessary/useful.
TL;DR: our society is now valuing a girls opportunity to excell academically so the perceived deficit we're currently seeing in boys is really just girls getting a fair shake now, in combination with some inherent advantages girls have in a purley academic/educational setting.
February 26th, 2018 at 7:45 PM ^
>>TL;DR: our society is now valuing a girls opportunity to excell academically so the perceived deficit we're currently seeing in boys is really just girls getting a fair shake now, in combination with some inherent advantages girls have in a purley academic/educational setting.
Right. In the past, girls were pushed away from tech and STEM. Hell, I think I had maybe 2 or 3 girls in my entire EECS graduating class at Michigan back in the mid 90's. But if you looked at my high school, even though we had more smart boys than average, we had a TON of smart girls. So I don't think that it is unusual that the girls at that age are excelling. What IS new is that they are moving into areas that have in the past been inherently male dominated, some almost to the complete exclusion of women.