John U. Bacon weighs in on Izzo & Dantonio
On the difference between Izzo and Dantonio's situations"I would make a distinction between Izzo's situation and Dantonio's," Bacon said. "As far as I know, Coach Izzo's got three situations to answer for. One of course is Travis Walton, the one being discussed, also Adreian Payne and Keith Appling were both part of an incident with a woman that looks horrible, and what happened will be a question worth answering for sure. We don't know about that. In Dantonio's case, he's got a ten-year pattern of 16 players accused of sexual assault over this stretch.
"I'm not dismissing in any way Izzo's situation, but it seems to be at least contained. Now, how bad that is, we're going to find out. I don't see Dantonio's as contained. I see it as a pattern that has been rolling out for a decade, class after class, and that, to me, is a different situation."
http://michiganradio.org/post/bacon-izzo-dantonio-need-be-ready-some-tough-and-necessary-questions
I'm not sure why Bacon is stating that Izzo has his situation "contained". Contained, because from what we know thus far, he's only dealing with Walton and Appling/Payne? That seems like a strange choice of phrase since we just found out more info yesterday when it was reported that Walton was living with Izzo when both of his issues happened. And who were the other two basketball players involved in the gang rape with Walton? That doesn't seem like a contained situation to me. I do know that Izzo was frazzled and lost after these last two games and now he can expect to get grilled about Walton's living arrangement with him going forward.
Dantonio clearly has a massive culture and image problem to deal with and I'm fairly confident that more damning evidence will come out on the football team. And this narrative from spartys that Dantonio was so upright because he booted four assaulters last year is nonsense. Those guys were only booted from the team because of the Nassar ugliness and ESPN snooping around campus. Unlike Izzo, Dantonio has the sad luxury of not having to go in front of the media 2-3 times a week until the end of March.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:56 PM ^
It's not the coaches they are protecting....it's themselves as an institution. They have to fight everything coming out or risk civil liabilities going to the moon.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:50 PM ^
Perhaps - and I acknowledge there's a lot of strategy involved here (I'm in-house counsel so this issue comes up time to time...), but organizations often times will cut loose someone involved in the past actions. For the most part, there are ways to do it while still preserving your interests and litigation strategy. Of course, there could be something I'm not aware of here that would say otherwise.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:02 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:11 AM ^
It's not the number of incidents, per se. It's how they were handled (especially in the case of bball). But also, with Dorntany, the 16 incidents are spread across several classes over 10 years - which begins to show a pattern. Izzo doesn't have such a pattern over his 30-some years at MSU. Just two horrifying incidents that don't appear to have been handled properly, at all.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:15 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:22 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:18 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:13 AM ^
"...were both part of an incident with a woman that looks horrible"
a better read: "... were both part of an incident - with a woman - that looks horrible." The incident looks horrible.
That said, one horrible incident of rape or abuse that is covered up by the head coach is grounds for dismissal of that coach.
Covering up 16 incidents is grounds for jail time, IMHO.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:43 AM ^
Your revision makes it seem like the writer is looking back on the phrase "...were both part of an incident with a woman" and telling us that the phrase looks horrible. Still awkward.
Perhaps,
"... were both part of a horrible-looking incident with a woman."
or,
"... were both part of what appears to be a horrible incident with a woman."
January 30th, 2018 at 10:05 AM ^
Grammar is a fundamental part of this blog!
January 30th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^
It's OK as it is, because "that" generally refers to things and not people.
If "horrible" referred to the woman, it would say "...with a woman who looks horrible."
January 30th, 2018 at 9:16 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:25 AM ^
Dantanio is also in charge of 85 kids plus walkons and a larger coaching staff. In the last 5 years Michigan has had grant perry, frank clark, brendan gibbons/lewan that I can think of off the top of my head. I recognize its across different coaching staffs and each situation was handled differently, my point is that having 4 instances of public sexual assault claims in 4 years shows that prevalence of these actions is a problem with our culture as a society not necessarily a sign of culture on a team. How each situation was handled is a reflection on the coach and university, the fact that it happened 16 times over a decade is unfortunately probably under reported and not a michigan state issue.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:05 AM ^
Fuck off sparty troll
January 30th, 2018 at 9:31 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:49 AM ^
It's a group of the worst of Spartan Nation. They are in constant butt hurt, aggressive victimhood mode. The whole 'disrespekt' thing has gone from 'okay' to 'C'mon now' to pathetic, and now in this case to flat out disgusting.
If this happens to any institution, God Forbit it happens here, the proper stance is contrition and shame.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:08 AM ^
...That I sort of like the way that the Grant Perry incident was handled. Which is to say, by police and prosecutors. With people under oath. A clear timeline. Open hearings. Court records that can be copied; police records subject to FOIA. Punishment consistent with the law.
A whole lot better, than a Title IX framework that seems to produce more injustice and indignity than it avoids. And which seems to have done little overall, over several years, at MSU.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:54 PM ^
always go through the justice system. Let's say that there is a 60% chance that someone is guilty of rape. That person probably shouldn't be convicted in the justice system because 40% is more than a reasonable doubt. In fact, a prosecutor might not even file charges if he/she recognizes they can't get to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
But do you want that person on campus? Do you want that person on your basketball/football team? There is and must be room for universities to conduct their own investigation and make their own findings.
January 30th, 2018 at 3:07 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 3:16 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 3:34 PM ^
is a privilege, not a right. You could lose everything you own based on a 51% probability in a civil lawsuit. Why should someone who is probably a sexual predator not be removed from campus even if it can't be proved to a reasonable doubt? Do you want to be the one to explain that to the next victim?
January 30th, 2018 at 9:37 AM ^
Dantonio is an A-hole. He created a culture that was rough around the edges. He liked his players to have an "us against the world" personality, to play like junkyard dogs, to be rough, crude and tough. They operated without rules on the field sometimes, so it's no suprise that off the field they were allowed to roam free. He was protected, the players were protected.
He let that culture foster and grow until it finally burst last season.
Never forget, that first and foremost Dantonio is a smug, arrogant, D-bag, A-hole.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:37 PM ^
"We've never had anything like that happen around here before."
January 30th, 2018 at 9:43 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:51 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:54 AM ^
If you read the RCMB
Don't do it man!
But I agree. This definitely is not a hatchet job, but I also don't think it's a slam dunk right now that Izzo and Dantonio are broomed. Dantonio in particular seems to be like teflon on this stuff.January 30th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:45 AM ^
Given the MSU ties to the guy Schuette asked to do the investigation, and the reports of local police departments being rather lenient, as well as the local prosecutor beign lenient... I'm not sure if I see this going anywhere at all. And that's sad. If I were an MSU Alum I'd want someone maybe federal, or at least out state, to do the investigation. Someone without a dog in the game.
The next few years could (and should) be painful, but cutting out the rot is the only way to get healed as an institution.
It terrifies me that so many just turned the other way. And terrifies me that some might be doing the same thing, right now, at other universities. Even Michigan. PSU, MSU and Baylor have really struck at my faith in humanity for a bit.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:05 PM ^
I agree 100% with you...this isn't going anywhere unfortunately. And it should...these guys are reprehensible.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:50 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:20 AM ^
"Fifth and Butt Hurt"
January 30th, 2018 at 10:41 AM ^
Does JUB have the same sort of connections at MSU to write the definitive story?
January 30th, 2018 at 10:00 AM ^
I'm surprised Bacon doesn't consider the incidents as a percentage of players. Izzo may have had "only" three incidents (and, honestly, from what I've seen he handled those three FAR worse than Dantonio) but how many scholarship players does he have every year compared to the number Dantonio has? I think both have huge culture problems, and Izzo's use of a dying cancer patient to try to clean up one of his culture problems shows the only thing he has contained is the PR.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:18 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:29 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:40 AM ^
Based off the rate of sexual assault on college campuses 1.6 assaults per year from a group of 85 men would actually be a low number. I'd imagine that number is larger than 1.6 at almost every football program in the country and likely just not properly reported.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:45 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 11:02 AM ^
Of course its way too high but our society is fucked up in many ways including with how many men treate and view women. I don't want to hold coaches somehow accountable for that, what I do want to hold them accountable for is how they react to incidents. Both Dantanio and Izzo failed on that front and should be judged for that, not necessarily a number of times it has come up.
In reality Hoke should probably have been fired for the way he handled the Gibbons/Lewan situation and Michigan's title IX department should certainly have been fired and turned over to new leadership but everyone still thinks of Hoke as a good guy who just couldn't coach. People have blind spots, they say always believe the survivor and a lack of decision to prosecute doesn't mean a coach or administration can do nothing until there is something at their school and then they question the story, look for less powerful people to blame and say it is worse at other places. MSU's administration failed in every way here including Dantanio and Izzo, I just sadly don't believe its an MSU issue, I think what happened is likely to happen at most large institutions because they are significantly more invested in protecting a pr image than any individual student on campus.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:58 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 12:23 PM ^
My point is that if preventing that number of rape claims per year is a pre-requisisit I think most college coaches would get fired if rape/sexual assault were reported.
Brady Hoke made a joke about Gibbons thinking of brunetts while being aware he was accused of sexual assault and continuing to play him until the bowl game. Taylor Lewan threatened a woman with rape for reporting Gibbons (for the defenders he did not threaten her directly but sent the text to another person) and received no punishment. Where does that fall for you? When you include Frank Clark Hoke had a miniumum of 3 cases of reported activity in his first 3 years of coaching. Is an average of 1 case a year too many? Would you have advocated for Hoke's firing after year 3 based on these things and not on field results?
Grant Perry and Travis Walton essentially had the same first experience, accused of sexual assault, competing testimony from witnesses and a plea deal to a lesser charge that doesn't include sexual assault. Was anyony advocating that Harbaugh has lost control of his team and enabling sexual assault when he played this year? Or did people look at the facts as they saw them and decided everything was on the up and up.
Sexual assault is extremely complicated because it is rarerly if ever clear what happened based on a reading of evidence. As a human you can either choose to believe the survivor unless faced with overwhelming evidence contradicting their story, or you can choose to follow the judicial system of it it can' be 100% proven you assume innocence and punish or not based on that. MSU as an institution chose the latter and as a result abdicated responsibility to the judicial system. That is what most institutions do. It is what Harbaugh chose to do with Perry for example to show it is what most institutions choose to do.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:44 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 1:08 PM ^
I agree there is a problem, I'm just saying its a problem that exists everywhere. Every time something like this breaks the reactions is man, what a bunch of fucks, I can't believe it would happen there' and that lets people ignore that it is happening everywhere. Its happening at schools, its happening at large corporations and mom and pop shops, its happening in DC and in hollywood, its happening at factories, its happening on college campuses. It is a problem everywhere. Holding MSU to the fire for their failures is the right thing to do, but every single insitution should be taking a hard look and making changes internally too, because the reality is the culture is the same across almost all of these places.
I don't think Dantanio or Izzo are worse people than Harbaugh, I think almost every major college coach in those situation would have acted in the same way. Dantanio essentially reacted same way Harbaugh reacted to Perry in almost every instance. I actually think Izzo was the worse of the two because Travis Walton and Appling/Payne were horrendous things that received zero punishment.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:22 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 1:42 PM ^
I want to compare because the tone on this board is that this could never ever happen at a place like Michigan and MSU should be burned to the ground. Sure its unlikely the Nassar thing would happen, that is a terrible unique circumstance. But the Izzo/Dantanio stuff? Of course that could happen at Michigan, multiple similar things have happened in our football program over the same time period (love you beilein that the same can't be said for basketball). What happened at MSU for Dantanio and Izzo not only could very easily happen at Michigan, in all likely hood that is exactly what has happened. Which is why Michigan was under a title IX investigation in 2014. What happens at MSU isn't a chance to shit on another place to feel good about yourself, it should be a wakeup call that the same atmosphere and culture that exists at your school led to this outcome and we should be putting pressure on all of our institutions to shift, not hope making the example of a single school every year will change behavior.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:00 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 2:09 PM ^
I agree with both of you to some extent, and I think whatever the tact is, it needs to begin before they even get to college. To put a kid's bad behavior all on a college coach is unfair. There's no way a kid like that was squeaky clean before he got to college. His high school environment had to play a part -- whether the coach was lax, or he was deified because he was the big star on the team, did his home life lack discipline, etc.....But on the other hand, a college coach has to be held accountable. Taking a chance on a behaviorally challenged kid because he could help you win maybe isn't the way to go. Have a zero tolerance policy as a deterrent to future players. A guy who has gotten away with a lot of stuff in high school probably doesn't want to go into a highly disciplined program with zero tolerance.
And to the point about shitting on another program for something that we all could be guilty of, it is fun to shit on Dantonio. He's an ass of the highest order, and completely odious and unlikable.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:33 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 1:58 PM ^
"I'd imagine that number is larger than 1.6 at almost every football program in the country and likely just not properly reported."
You're likely right - but we can probably assume that in general reporting rates are similar nationwide.
We can probably assume if your number of reported sexual assaults is higher than other programs, your number of unreported sexual assaults is ALSO higher than other programs.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:42 AM ^
With Dantonio, my reaction is "Methinks he doth protest too much." He set for himself an absolute criteria with which he wants to be judged; i.e. he claims to have always followed the standard, and always reported the incidents through "proper channels," etc.
The first time (and there will be a first - not to mention a second and a third) that investigations uncover examples wherein he didn't follow the "standard" or "report through proper channels," he's going to have a LOT of explaning to do. And it will probably cost him his job, as it should.
That's why people equivocate in the first place. Even if they don't believe they have made mistakes, actions or inactions will be questioned under the cold light of day.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:00 AM ^
I actually think the contrary is true. Dantonio is controlling the discussion to make the question "When he knew, did he act?" But he recruited all of these players; got to know them, personally invited them to attend MSU. By making it all about what he did after crimes were committed, he's trying to vacate responsibilty for creating the culture by casting this crew of bad actors.