Past 2 SEASONS of B1G Conference: Michigan's Opponents Penalized Only Twice for Offensive Holding
This is a crazy update from Maizen's thread (here) now that we're at the end of the season.
The latest version of the report (linked here) is from a 247 article, with original info coming from Toronto Sun columnist John Kyrk.
I mean, yikes. This should at least raise some eyebrows.
Edit: Title was worded improperly. Please see the comments below for more information.
November 28th, 2017 at 5:51 AM ^
And when it happens it happens in crucial spots in the game. Up 14-0 they dont call the hold on Hurst OSU scores a TD and the game completely changes. Make that call and Michigan gets the ball back up 14-0.
November 28th, 2017 at 9:10 AM ^
On the other hand, don't drop an inteception and we get the ball back up 14-0 as well. We had our chances despite the uneven calls. We had wide open players our QB missed....eliminate that stuff and we are in great shape.
November 28th, 2017 at 9:20 AM ^
Like the TD against State. Michigan scores, holding called. OSU scores no holding call.
It's all rigged.
November 28th, 2017 at 9:51 AM ^
Just because we missed an opportunity to make a play doesn't mean we should have to deal with terrible calls. This is the dumbest, and unfortunately one of the most common arguments I've seen regarding bad officiating.
"Shouldn't have allowed it to be a close game in the first place!"
Spare me.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:17 AM ^
Yeah, my response is always "can't it be both?" Why can't we hope the players make plays and demand fair and equitable treatment from the officials?
Anybody who has played competetive sports for any amount of time knows how difficult it is to win an evenly-matched game in spite of the officiating. "Just win" is the mantra of someone who knows little about competition and wants to feel better about themselves for painting others as excuse-makers and whiners.
And I totally get that there's a ton of people that sit and watch these games that see their receiver getting held on every play but don't see their defender doing the same thing. That's not what we're talking about here. *Puts on foil cap* this seems to go deeper than that. It's tough not to believe in conspiracies when statistics back up what you had previously just guessed at (see: every thread talking about Harbaugh dialing back the tantrums).
November 28th, 2017 at 11:26 AM ^
How about you concentrate on fixing the problems you control, and not the ones you don't? Officiating is out of our hands no matter what...unfortunately, so was that missed INT. Only one you control.....
November 28th, 2017 at 12:40 PM ^
Ok guys, remember, you have to play perfectly today because the refs are most likely going to fuck you. That means no drops, no missed blocks, and no missed throws. No pressure! Now go have fun out there...
November 28th, 2017 at 12:40 PM ^
Ok guys, remember, you have to play perfectly today because the refs are most likely going to fuck you. That means no drops, no missed blocks, and no missed throws. No pressure! Now go have fun out there...
November 28th, 2017 at 12:52 PM ^
Control? No. Affect? Certainly. That's the whole point of coaches "working" the officials during the game. That's why make-up calls exist. I used to officiate soccer games and I've had my fair share of make-up calls. I've also had my fair share of "fuck you" calls. Right, wrong, or indifferent: referrees can be affected.
But even beyond that, a compelling case can be made to the league and, with the right about of tact and leverage, can potentially change how these games are officiated. Saying we can't do anything about it shows a lack of creative problem-solving and a defeatist attitude.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:04 PM ^
I control jack shit. Players make mistakes, and are punished for those mistakes (dropped interception kept the drive alive). They shouldn't be further punished because of those mistakes (Mo Hurst getting tackled on the next play to allow for an easy JT Barrett TD).
November 28th, 2017 at 9:54 AM ^
Both things can be true.
Yes, UM would probably have won both last year and this year against OSU if the QB's hadn't made so many mistakes in those games (Speight 16 / O'Korn 17) even with the shitty officiating but it is ALSO true that UM probably would have won had the games been officiated fairly even with the mistakes made by the QB's.
Imagine what those games would have looked like if UM's QB's hadn't sucked AND the officiating had been unbiased; UM would have beaten OSU comfortably in both games.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:25 AM ^
But you only get to control 1 of those things....stick to the things YOU control and the rest of it takes care of itself.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:57 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 6:40 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 7:35 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 5:13 AM ^
It wouldn't be that hard to see the level at which we are over penalized here. It would assume that holding occurs at some consistent rate across teams, and then I could calculate the level at which we deviate from that distribution. I don't want to dig up the data though. If someone else does, I'll do the analysis. I'll even make plots!
Signed,
a lazy data scientist
Edit: I would also need number of offensive plays for each team, since that varies wildly. Run/pass splits would be useful too.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:09 PM ^
"It would assume that holding occurs at some consistent rate across teams"
A horrible assumption... really, really horrible.
It doesn't.
November 28th, 2017 at 6:02 PM ^
November 29th, 2017 at 3:59 PM ^
Don't agree with that either.
Holding is not a random variable, holding does correlate with style of team, and holding does not occur at some consistent rate across plays.
In the NFL at least - running plays are significantly more likely to generate holding calls than passing plays.
Running plays: 2.97%
Passing plays: 1.79%
November 28th, 2017 at 5:20 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 5:38 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 5:39 AM ^
What about all of the no calls? This is not something that is so simple to explain! If you have watched every game this season it should jump out to you with ease. The missed calls in the OSU game like say 3 punts in a row with a black in the back or the 5 or 6 PI plays that were never called. Of course we hold and of course we get away with stuff. The point is we actually get called for the stuff on a regular. We got called for penalties in the OSU game that never even happened meanwhile OSU was blocking us in the back, holding WR's, and on the 1st or 2nd score tackled our DL. I mean last I knew the D did the tackling. All these missed penalties does exactly what has happened to us all season, they back u up and stall drives. OSU never got backed up but we did and have been all season long. If you can't see this I mean I guess I don't know what else to say.
November 28th, 2017 at 6:53 AM ^
OSU had a minimum of 4 false starts. Those are penalties the refs can't ignore. Total penalties don't mean squat. It's the one's that aren't called and more importantly their effect on the game.
My review of the game showed 9 blatantly blown calls that went against us/weren't called and another 3 that were marginal. In comparison I only spotted 2-3 calls that were in our favor and were low impact.
I'm trying to work on a video - If I don't do a video, I will list the plays.
Most people realize how bad OSU 2016 was. This year's OSU & MSU games were just as bad.
This is not an excuse for an underachieving football team or coaching staff. The facts are that we are getting screwed on the field by the refs.
If any of you still have the mindset that "The blown calls will even out", I can assure you that's not the case.
November 28th, 2017 at 10:49 AM ^
but it is discouraging. Like when O'Korn was hit late against MSU and nothing was called, he popped up screaming "THROW THE FLAG!"
November 28th, 2017 at 11:55 AM ^
That's the worst part . . . as bad as 2016 was, we thought that everybody would take notice at the blatant disparity and clean it up for 2017.
Instead, 2017 was even worse.
We can already predict how 2018 will go in Columbus.
This is now completely out of hand and needs to be addressed.
November 28th, 2017 at 7:15 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 7:07 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 10:37 AM ^
OSU was called for Defensive Holding in the 3rd quarter on Saturday...right before we scored our last touchdown.
I do not disagree that the calls in the last few games have been horrible. (How do they not give JOK that first down on the scramble towards the end of the 2nd quarter even after the review??? Or the DPJ touchdown against Wisconsin??) I would assume that these are all things that are submitted to the B1G office for review, but it seems like this kind of stuff probably just falls on deaf ears.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:23 PM ^
For accepted penalties, all defensive and offensive holding:
Michigan: 4
OSU: 2
2017: Michigan 1, OSU 1
2016: Michigan 1, OSU 0
2015: Michigan 2, OSU 1
Your number is just completely wrong... even if we were to include declined penalties.
November 28th, 2017 at 8:33 AM ^
time for Warde Manual to stand up and fight for something.
November 28th, 2017 at 10:58 AM ^
Seems to me that Warde is a nutless wonder who likes his paycheck. He won't ruffle any feathers.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:17 AM ^
It is very simple. If Warde Manuel does not flex some Michigan muscle and get this problem fixed he needs to be let go. We need a much more aggressive athletic coordinator. Shit OSU flat out has a street pimp running there show. He has all kinds of connections with the ncaa. The thing that is weird is OSU gets flagged consistently against other teams.
We got fair officiating and maybe on our side in the Rutgers and Minnesota game. Like I said osu got flagged big time in the Iowa game. OSU is not one of the favorites of officiating, but man against Michigan they can do no wrong. There is some kind of directive being issued for sure. I think Michigan is well within there rights to open up an investigation and pressure Delaney and officials of the big ten into answering some questions.
I personally think putting delaney in a closet with a male wolverine who has not eaten in two weeks would suffice for me. I personally would like who is in charge of the officials and what is said to them before each game. There is something going on. You can flat out feel it. There is way to much smoke. I really have a feeling something is going to take hold and someone will be held accountable.
How are we not getting calls at home. The officials are way to comfotable fucking over 110,000 people. I personally think the Michigan fan base is to accepting unlike N.C. state fans. I can guarantee you if Michigan served beer in bottles that would change the officiating bias real quick. LOL.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:18 PM ^
Actual numbers of offensive holding calls over last 3 OSU games:
Michigan - 2
OSU - 1
2017: Michigan 1, OSU 0
2016: Michigan 0, OSU 0
2015: Michigan 1, OSU 1
November 28th, 2017 at 5:51 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 5:57 AM ^
BJJ would be the best class to take, that or sambo. They both teach you how to break and use wrist control. Not sure how much that means tho when a player can simply grab your shoulder pads or jersey and hang onto it.
November 28th, 2017 at 7:23 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 10:40 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 7:39 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 7:41 AM ^
then someone needs to publish the details since Harbaugh came to Michigan. After which Warde needs to have a meeting with Delany and the other executives of the B1G and say WTF is going on ?
Anyone at the game saw Urb's constantly on the field throughout the game ... even walking past the yard markers to the point that the crowd was screaming so loud that the official finally threw a flag ... and then gave them a fucking warning, WTF ? Last year, JH gets called for a penalty for throwing his clipboard down on his own sideline ... seriously, you can't make this shit up.
Go Blue!
November 28th, 2017 at 8:35 AM ^
Warde needs to stick up for this coach and his program. It's gone well beyond just mindless whining when there are blatant statistics to prove the bias that has existed since Harbaugh took over. All the fans want is to watch our guys get a fair shot. Hopefully they can clean this up before next season. Go Blue!!
November 28th, 2017 at 10:51 AM ^
throwing your cliboard is a blatant technical foul Two free throws and the ball out of bounds. . .s/
November 28th, 2017 at 8:23 AM ^
in addition to multiple offensive holding calls against OSU, the refs missed at least two blatant 'block in the back' calls on OSU returns...
i could go on, but why bother - the Big Ten "likes" having Harbaugh in the conference (for money and ratings), but "greatly dislikes" the guy...and it shows w/the officiating - even this year, with a 'toned-down' Harbaugh on the sidelines
November 28th, 2017 at 9:58 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 1:33 PM ^
The clock in the corner of the television is not the game clock. It is not always in sync.
November 28th, 2017 at 8:36 AM ^
You've raised valid concerns, but if you expect Warde and Michigan to make progress on this, they're going to have to bring a better argument than "you're all out to get us."
Try this: the officiating the past few seasons has been terribly inconsistent in ways that affected the outcomes of games. What can the conference do to improve? Every coach and AD in the B1G would agree with that statement. Also, current B1G officials are a lot more likely to cooperate with trying to improve, than accusations that they are all cheating bastards who are out to get Michigan.
However, there is one criticism of the Conference (and staying in it) that rings true to me. Allintime23 wrote, "If you are used for your brand and history only to get cheated and celebrated in defeat, what’s the sense?" You said it brother. I've been following Michigan since the 70s and was a student there in the mid-80s. I am puzzled by the continuous irrational hatred for all things Michigan from other schools despite the results on the field. Yeah, OSU is following Woody Hayes' lead, and we did beat up on the rest of the Conference pretty good up until 2000. But, worse than Ohio State? Wisconsin has owned whatever division it's occupied since the B1G split into them, benefitted from having two teams in its division ineligible to play in the Championship Game, and repeatedly received downy soft Conference schedules. Maybe you should save some of your powder for the Badgers? Shoot, MSU has been more of a threat than we have lately. Why are we the Super Bowl for every cotton-picking team on our schedule, to an extent that not even Ohio State seems to be? One of Urban assistants took over the Rutgers program, and he thought the best way to fire up his fan base was to fan the Michigan hatred. Penn State emptied its bag of tricks to run up the score on Michigan, in ways that affected its ability to surprise OSU and MSU in losses later in the season. Referees and their pratfalls aside, this whole thing is getting tiresome. You love Michigan's history, but delight only is seeing us beaten? Eff you!
November 28th, 2017 at 8:39 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 8:47 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 9:04 AM ^
I've been asking him to include that in his UFRs for years. Pretty simple really - he's already looking at each play just add in the following like the NBA does with their last 2 minutes of game reviews:
1. Good no call made
2. Good penalty call made
3. Bad no call - missed penalty
4. Bad penalty call made
I think the results of that would either validate us who think we are getting totally jobbed or validate those who think we're tin foil hat wearers and everything's fine.
Brian subscribes to the theroy they arent crooked - they are incompetent. My question is then if that's the case why dont things EVER even out? Incompetency is blind so we should get just as many bad calls in our favor as against us but that clearly never happens.
My guess is he doesnt want to know. Because if you know in advance you're fighting the officials and the other team the game is really no better than professional wrestling.
November 28th, 2017 at 5:16 PM ^
I'm in complete agreement there. Incompetence would even itself out year over year. That never happens.
November 28th, 2017 at 9:09 AM ^
End of first half. OKorn stretches out for first down. They mark him where is foot touches and not where the ball is when the foot touches.
Upon review the call stands. How is an entire arm length not 'indisputable'?
That call costs us a potential 3-7 points as well.