Is the Offense Too Complicated?
I have seen this question pop up in various hot takes for the last few weeks and I am curious if there is any truth to it. I would like the opinion of someone that would know more about college offenses Vs pro. I guess it could be possible, but I am of the opinion that if it was too complicated for college players, Jim Harbaugh would know or at least realize it. I have seen various people state that Saban started out with a pro offense and has moved to more of a spread. This could obviously be personnel related. Others also stated after the PSU game that they gave their QB a couple of simple reads as opposed to JOK having multiple to go through each play. Again, I don't know how much truth there is to any of this, I am just curious. Is the offiense set up to dominate when they have all the right pieces, which may or may not ever happen? Is a spread offense that much easier to to install and operate?
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:12 AM ^
Speight would have likely had more downfield passing success (opening up the game), but then would have thrown one of his trademark pick 6s to balance things out.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:53 AM ^
Thats fine sticking to the pro style offense but you can still run schemes out of the pro style that does'nt take 5 seconds to develop. Look no futher than how New England runs the pro style. Like it has been mentioned before on here why would you have all 4 receivers running 15 yard Plus routes when its 3rd and 4
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
"So many people thought by firing Rich Rod that was the right move because "the spread doesn't work in the Big Ten"."
...and those people were idiots. Rich Rod wasn't a good coach - but it wasn't because the spread doesn't work in the B1G.
"runs an offense that is a modern pro-style system."
Except he doesn't. Most NFL teams are running complicated versions of a passing spread offense. Much closer to Air Raid with complex reads/route trees than Manball.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
the offense for Alex Smith in SF. http://grantland.com/features/quarterbacking-made-simple/
To summarize:
- Harbaugh created a series of simple "anti-Blitz" passes/reads for Smith that allowed him to make easy reads when the bullets were flying and move the sticks.
I don't think it's arrogance, just the fact that we haven't seen anything like this for our team. As other posters have said - it's 3rd and 6 and they showed on TV how all of our receivers were running "4 verticals" type routes and the middle of the field was WIDE OPEN and not one receiver was in that area. I don't know if that is someone running a wrong route, or by design.
Again, don't know if it is too many cooks in the kitchen, but I don't think any of us thought the offense would be this disjointed and floundering the way it is.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:41 AM ^
I'm not conceding there isn't an issue with situational playcalling. I just think that changing the overall offensive philosophy isn't the answer.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:46 AM ^
with you there!
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:49 AM ^
that I wonder if one or the receivers ran the wrong route.
Plenty of bad situatuonal play calling this year, so it could be just another one of those.
But it is so bad that maybe it was a missed assignment by a player. Play would have made sense if it were 3 deep verts to clear out the middle and crate an open space for a 10 yard crossing route.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:48 AM ^
I think it is more an issue of using your personnel in the best way to take advantage of each skill set. We are starting to get to a point where we have some serious team speed. Look at DPJ, McDoom, Evans, etc. In my opinion, that requires getting them out in space and quickly. The offense we are running was great for last year and the bodies we were using (Speight, De'Veon, etc.) but right now we have JOK and Higdon and guys who don't necessarily fit that same mold.
Also, if your line isn't the greatest, you have to play a style conducive to countering that. In my mind, Purdue has it right with that. Getting the ball out quick to speedy guys and using misdirection more keeps defenses honest, thus opening up more space.
Harbaugh and staff know all of this better than us obviously. However, I am not seeing that being utilized with JOK yet.
Running play action from an I formation on 4th and 11 is staggeringly stupid and most anyone who knows anything about football knows that. So they are not off the hook. They need to do better with this part. Slants, pop passes, screens, throwbacks, and whatever else mixed in with some of these long developing patterns would be helpful.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:57 AM ^
You're right and I'm not suggesting Harbaugh is above criticism. I'm not happy with some of the playcalling and certainly running play action on 4th and 11 was interesting to say the least.
It's just harder than people think for young receivers to make an impact regardless of the offensive approach. I mean look at OSU last year. In an easier scheme, receivers had trouble getting open because they were mostly freshman and sophomores.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:13 AM ^
The offense is complicated. This is an offense you see on sundays when it comes to scheme. MDog is right, this is sports car basically stuck in the mud. They dont have the personnel right now to run this style of offense. To make matters worse, the coaches lack creativity and are not putting the guys in the best position to succeed. We have seen deep balls to Crawford/McDoom many times with little success. We have seen playaction passess called on 3rd/4th and long. No trick plays. They arent a good screen/draw team which is vital to be when running a pro style system. Obviously play callers are a bit hamstrung when lacking personnel, but when you make that much money, you need to figure out something. Nothng has worked in weeks and they are too stubborn to make any changes. Peters needs a shot. O'Korn looked better but he is not the answer. Peters should get a ton of reps and see what happens. This is the week to do it. Rutgers is improved, but they are still terrible.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:15 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:21 AM ^
In the Big house. I think we will beat Rutgers. We should run the ball really well, and be able to put up some points. I see what you are saying though. Hopfully the team is amped and ready to go. I think they will be.
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:56 AM ^
My eyes tell me that it is more of a problem of bad game plans and bad situational play calling.
The offense looks simpler than in 2016.
A lot less pre-snap motion. A smaller set of plays. Week-to-week game plans are very similar this year. Last year we saw a handful of new plays designed to scheme against opposing tendencies just about every week. Not this year.
Just seems like the menu of plays is less diverse, poorly conceived (PA on 4th and 11, etc.), disjointed. But it does not seem overly complex.
It was more complex last year and produced better results.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:17 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:17 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:18 AM ^
The route running is very long developing though. I wish we would open up the tight ends more. Some of these routes just take way too long, and hence, the sacks. Is this just me? Why can we not dump it off to a tight end or do some simple hitch routes? But I am not a highly paid college head coach. I just think some of these routes look crazy haha!
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:19 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:26 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:34 AM ^
I would add WR play as well. Struggling to get open, not coming back to the ball, not high-pointing it, and dropping catchable passes.
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:58 AM ^
right.
It really is that simple.
Now what are we supposed to talk about?
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:19 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
We have more formations per point scored than anybody in college football.
/waves tiny maize flag.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:22 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:22 AM ^
I don't think it is very complicated if you are using an offset I with 2 WR on 4th and 11 and run playaction. That's just a bad playcall.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:28 AM ^
when all its working parts are working together and they mesh in gear to shift and throttle up or down depending on the situation. We don't have that kind of unit regardless of what's missing.
With the rest of the season, it would be nice to see how all the roster parts might fit and work together going forward.
Looking ahead to next year, defensively, this team is going to be lights out, a monster, in my opinion with lots of depth at linebacker and especially Dline. I mean if the only top player you lose is an an All-American in the middle in Maurice Hurst, that is a great loss, but support is there. So, the cupboard is otherwise full.
Oline and qb are the biggest issues facing this team regardless of what offense or blocking scheme is run.
Part of the gameplan on Saturday seemed to be sending the outside guys deep to free up space for shallower crossing routes and run lanes. Penn State was crowding the line of scrimmage anticipating run. And the drops of the linebackers as Michigan started running verticals downfield were deep zone drops without a spy which enabled O'Korn to break the pocket and get as many yards on his own as possible. This was by design.
Michigan never really executed the short passing plays that would have forced different coverage, and they don't have the outside speed to burn a defense deep. And Penn State was only rushing the front line most of the time, using a variety of stunts to confuse blocking assignments. When they did blitz, they came with corners and safeties, not their linebackers.
Michigan played a lot of guys on defense Saturday night, perhaps more than in any other game. They knew they'd be challenged by Penn State's offense and talent and so a lot of guys played. That in; retrospect was a good thing. A hard lesson but a good thing.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:28 AM ^
Does anybody really think that if Harbaugh took the same approach on offense that he did on defense in bringing in Don Brown, that we would have the same offensive staff and approach that we have now?
He went after the best DC he could find and then let him to his job.
The same approach also worked for James Franklin at PSU on offense.
The fact is that Harbaugh likes to fiddle. He's been an offense guy his whole life, and he wants to keep his hands on the offense. He wants an ambiguous organization on offense where he can jump in and interject when he wants. It's hard for him to let that go.
But that approach is not working nearly as well as the defensive approach, or Franklin's offensive approach
We'll see which wins out . . . Harbaugh's desire to continue to fiddle on offense, or his competetive desire to win.
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:27 AM ^
No top offensive coordinator would want to take part in a multi-voice play calling machine, they would want total control. Jim will never let that happen; and if thats the price to pay to have Jim Harbaugh as our coach, so be it. We just need to hope he somewhat simplifies the system and brings in the right co-coordinater to replace Drevno. Looking back at when he first assembled the staff, Drevno was always the biggest red flag guy. The man needs to go.
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:16 PM ^
we have to remember that the Moorehead hire was very risky at the time. Franklin hired him from Fordham. Franklin's seat was already getting warm, and if it did not work out (unfortunately for M, it did work out) the hire would have been the number 1 reason for firing Franklin.
I wonder how people would react if JH hired a guy from Colgate or Bucknell to replace Devno/Pep.
Anyone happen to know who the offensive wizard coaches are in the FCS level?
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:29 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:33 AM ^
1) Line up in one of the 4,948 places that you have been instructed corresponding to the play called in the huddle.
2) Say hike.
3a) If you are a lineman, do your best to become an obstacle to the guys in other jerseys.
3b) If you are a running back, do your best to avoid the guys in the other jerseys that the offensive lineman didn't block. (Note: There frequently may be more than one).
3c) If you are a receiver, use those two stick-like things that you have eminating from of the top of your torso to catch the oblong ball coming at you. Do not let the ball hit the ground.
3d) If you are a quarterback, make very quick decisions, and don't die.
4) If you were unable to accomplish 3a), 3b), 3c) or 3d) in less than 1.75 seconds, you may die.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:34 AM ^
They are currently 89th in S and P. I'd say something is amiss beyond the quarterback position. It's a fairly comprehensive failure of recruiting, development, and scheme. Of course, watching what UCLA has done with motion and creating mismatches makes you wish that Jed was still here. I thought the McDoom plays were useful and more typical of a "college" style offense.
You aren't the 90th best team in the nation on offense without changes coming at the end of the year. I wish I saw more things like motion, fakes, short passes to people like McDoom and Evans. Then, when defenses creep up on the short routes, toss it deep to Peoples-Jones. It's a lot more complicated than that. Then again, Michigan has the 89th best offense. They aren't exactly setting the world on fire.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:38 AM ^
Yes, it's more than just O'Korn and a wayward RT.
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:44 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 10:48 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:18 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:19 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:22 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:33 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 11:44 AM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:05 PM ^
and drives like this you stall, you don't maul, and you whiff don't block shit and you turn it into 3 and out, you promised the D their never gonna see you fake it* Pepppp Dreevvvv Noooo!
*Except for play action on 4th and 11
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:02 PM ^
I don't think it is too complicated. I think it is inefficient at getting our best playmakers with the ball in space isolated against opponent weak spots.
October 23rd, 2017 at 2:35 PM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 4:19 PM ^
Yeah, not good. Maybe good if you had NFL players at all eleven positions. But there is a reason why spread offenses like PSU's have taken over college football.
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:03 PM ^
you saw our offense last season. It was not complicated. Even with Wilton missing plenty of down field opportunities we still scored a lot of points. This season shows the difference between what first year players vs. seasonsed ballers will accomplish.
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:10 PM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:17 PM ^
Michigan is a very young team, and is missing some pieces....like QB... to fully realize JH's vision.
Remember what the O looked like with Jake Rudock running it late in the 2015 season. There was a senior level pocket QB comfortable with the pocket and B1G game speed. The line was still porous, but mostly upper classmen, so it was effective. That O could was dangerous. We saw lots of hints of what the JH vision will be in it. But, the void of 2014-2015 talent aqusitions is now catching up with us. Peters/McCaffery are the future. Either can be soooo much better with the JH philosophy. They are working to build a OL franchise (like UM always had), but they also have to field a team every year and scholi's just can be for OL depth. Add to that JH believes that OL is the latest developing position in CFB. They need 2 years of strength/techinque building before they even see the field, in JH's opinion. So we are 2 yrs from having that.
Lastly, IMHO, the future is now. You might say you play JOK for the seniors to give them the best last season possible at this point. But, for the program and fans, waiting to "educate" Peters/McCaffery to B1G game speed is nothing to delay. QB's do not learn to operate in the game, by not being in the game. They HAVE to make mistakes to get better. It won't always be fun, but the payout next year and beyond will be significant.
Playing JOK or even WS at this point is the coaches call, but the program only gets better when that position gets better, and the road to better begins now with Peters/McCaffery. (Just think Peyton Manning as rookie in the NFL, the beating he took made him one of the best QB's ever. same for others like Philip Rivers, same for Cam Newton, same for Terry Bradshaw, same for Joe Flacco, Ben Rothlisberger, Dak Prescott....the list is long for getting the learning over early so the later is so very,very good). True the list of guys who fail is longer yet, but if you think you have the guy, playing him now is the shortest route to excellence for him and the team.
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:29 PM ^
Remember this awesome Congratulations on the purchase of your new Harbaugh "owner's manual" when Harbaugh first came on baord?
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/article5187357.html
It's worth a re-read now that he's been here 3 years. It's dead on.
And we can't say we weren't warned about the offense thing:
"Your Harbaugh has been designed for offense and will require many high-end parts to run said offense. Yet his defense will be better than his offense. This paradox has not been explained."
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:29 PM ^
October 23rd, 2017 at 12:41 PM ^
From my humble and uninformed opinion there appears too much that can go wrong and too much that requires great execution in order to make our offense work. I think making it easier to execute would go a long way. Maybe in 2 more years this all works itself out, but it appears that first and second year players will have trouble executing this offense. It requires a lot of moving parts to all be in sync. Why not do something that is easier to execute? I don't see the drawback of it being easier to defend worth the amount of time it takes to learn it when we need 1st and 2nd year players in the lineup.