Football Recruiting and the reality of bagmen
Last week, I had an interesting conversation with a registered NFL agent. This particular agent formally represents several Michigan grads currently in the league, as well as guys currently on the team. He thinks well of many guys at Michigan, even though he is an OSU grad. Our discussion took place prior to the debacle, when I still had naive hope in a Michigan win. Sigh.
In our discussion, he shared that a huge number of highly rated players, including several prominent guys currently on Michigan's team, receive compensation. From his perspective, basically every kid who is from a low income family and is ranked more or less in the top 100 prospects, probably in the top 200 or 300 prospects, is currently receiving compensation. He also believes that given the ridiculous amounts of money involved, this makes sense. Why should rich white guys in the NCAA and coaches and institutions get more and more, when kids in challenging circumstances basically get nothing. (Well, they get free room and board and tuition, but that's basically in exchange for working full time as a football player on a Division I team.)
As regards OSU, this matter of compensation has given them a huge leg up on Michigan. One of the real reasons Zach Smith continued so long as WR coach was his ability to leverage compensation for recruits going to the Buckeyes. The reality is that if the same thing doesn't happen at Michigan, we are never going to catch up to Alabama and Clemson, let alone OSU.
I don't know quite what to make of it all, but I am sure this is the reality. My guess is that Brian is all too aware of the reality, and this is part of the reason he supports compensating players openly. I'm sure there are boundaries out there and lines you can't cross. That's part of the reason Ole Miss got in trouble: they either paid players too openly, or crossed the wrong powerful people.
Regardless, here are my major takeaways. First, the schools at the top shield the coaches with plausible deniability, but these same coaches almost have to be aware that this is going on. If bagmen or boosters or agents are compensating family members, they do it in a way that no one on the coaching staff has their hands on it or direct knowledge of it. Second, if my agent contact is correct, several top players at Michigan are part of the same practice. Which means that I don't know how accurate it is to be throwing stones at other schools and their coaches. For good or for bad, this is the current reality. Given the current economic status of many the families involved, and the obscene amounts of money to be made, it is fairly inevitable that this would be the reality.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:59 PM ^
I've been trying to think back on who you're referring to and I believe I remember. If you compare that to the truck Denard and Devin shared it shows it definitely was not ra.mpant across the team.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:01 PM ^
2. I love John Beilein, but comparing basketball to football isn't quite accurate. In college basketball there is more reward in developing underrated talent. Look at Wisconsin, they've made final fours in basketball by developing underrated guys. They do a great job as well in football, but its been shown over the years those teams have a ceiling when they go up against the Ohio State's of the world.
The second reason for this is one and dones. If those guys stayed had to stay three years the top recruiting teams would be unstoppable (except MSU... see Bridges, Miles.)
3. I completely agree with this. I think there is a certain baseline that all players who play at major schools are incentivized. The real reason that Bama, OSU, and Clemson get the best players is that they have championship rings. However some schools (Ole Miss) go way to far above that baseline and get busted
November 29th, 2018 at 2:20 PM ^
I really don't think that the quality of recruits that Michigan needs to fulfill its requirements need to be paid off. John Beilein is the correct example. Don't compete for recruits that need to be bought. There are enough ethical ones around to compete. This is Michigan!
November 29th, 2018 at 1:33 PM ^
We should all donate..you all want to win? Put your $ where your mouth is..I will eat dollar menu until my gut gets infection if it means winning a natty
November 29th, 2018 at 1:36 PM ^
So you'll eat one McDouble?
November 29th, 2018 at 8:01 PM ^
Nothing beats the McGangBang
November 29th, 2018 at 1:38 PM ^
Let's start a GoFundMe campaign ... fire up the money cannon !!!
November 29th, 2018 at 1:34 PM ^
It’s ridiculous to think no UM players get paid.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:36 PM ^
An osu grad claims Michigan players are being compensated? Color me surprised.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:22 PM ^
I don't know how to explain it, and maybe DrMantisTobbogan can weigh in, but there are good guys who went to OSU, and there are sleeze balls. And honestly, there are good kids at Michigan, and there are sleeze balls.
My contact, who represents at least three Michigan kids currently in the league, is very impressed by their character and their professionalism. He has been around Michigan enough, however, to know that there have been some kids at Michigan who don't have the same character. In fact, his clients from Michigan have thrown some shade at some of their former Michigan teammates currently in the league. The senior on the team who he will represent is a great kid, and continues this pattern.
In contrast, my contact knew Zach Smith, and what a dirtball he was. He knows a number of kids at OSU who are skeezy. Just because he went there and roots for the team doesn't mean that he likes everything happening there.
My contact also had kids from his HS attend Michigan, and attend OSU, and play for the respective teams. I get the feeling that for kids who actually play at a high level, they don't have exactly the same kind of hatred that we as fans have. Think about it: Mattison has been at Florida and ND, and we don't hate him. Warinner coached at OSU, and we don't hate him. These guys can be friends with each other, even though they are at different teams.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:36 PM ^
As someone who's closely connected with a 2020 recruit everyone pays. Yes Michigan pays.. Everyone pays. You get extra money for bowl game wins etc...
November 29th, 2018 at 1:38 PM ^
Bama players drive nice cars
November 29th, 2018 at 1:39 PM ^
I have a hard time believing that Michigan pays players to the extent other schools do, for three reasons that have nothing to do with my homer insistence on our integrity:
1) Keeping hundreds of teenagers silent is damn near impossible. Someone always talks.
2) The level of scrutiny that we have been under since the RichRod days means that someone would have found something. They look at Harbaugh's daily air fare, ffs...
3) If we are paying them, we are remarkably bad at turning payments to recruits into commitments.
However, I WOULD easily believe that some NFL agents, managers, and reps are compensating our future pros. Again, two reasons:
1) Fewer interactions, with fewer players, and each one is individual with incentive for the player to keep things quiet.
2) Much higher ROI, and therefore incentives, for the payers.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:09 PM ^
I would defer to DrMantisToboggan. He is an insider and a former team member. I am not. However, here are several thoughts.
I don't think Michigan pays anything illegal, and doubt they ever have. Those are the things that eventually come to public knowledge.
- Yes, it is impossible to keep hundreds of teenagers silent. This is why you see photos on social media of idiots flashing a big wad of Benjamin's, wearing bling, etc. However . . . there is huge pressure in certain settings not to be a "snitch." I do think most of the kids are pretty cynical, and between mom, dad, uncle, agent, and bag man, have it beat into their heads to keep their mouths shut. They see what happened to Chris Webber and to others who were exposed. It isn't worth it.
- Level of scrutiny: again, as said by Toboggan: it is all indirect. Nothing comes from Michigan. Not a dime. It comes from agents, or bagmen, or boosters, and is probably given to family members. And even the indirect compensation doesn't have to be financial. Jobs, vehicles, housing, bills, travel, are all forms of compensation that are acceptable. And the less the institution (in our case, Michigan) knows about it, the better.
- I think more is happening at Michigan than used to happen. I think it is a combination of the team being more competitive on the field, and of indirect compensation happening in a way that isn't tracked to Michigan.
I agree with your comments regarding agents. I am sure there are tons of agents tracking players, and whether they are predicting to succeed in the league. They front cash to a possible draft pick, and the payoff comes if the kid is drafted and succeeds in the league.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:56 PM ^
"I am sure there are tons of agents tracking players, and whether they are predicting to succeed in the league. They front cash to a possible draft pick, and the payoff comes if the kid is drafted and succeeds in the league."
This is, in fact, IMG Academy's exact business model. And it's perfectly legal...
November 29th, 2018 at 1:39 PM ^
I'm for paying the players but it won't ever totally stop the bagmen from having influence.
Whatever the compensation structure you'll still have things like paying guys to visit, or not to visit rivals.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^
Agreed - "paying" players is not the answer. But I do believe "need-based" kids should qualify for spending money stipends such that they can socially be on equal footing with other students while on campus. Something like $5k per academic year to cover travel, fun, eating out, etc.
Universities paying players a salary won't get rid of the bagmen.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:09 PM ^
People don't support paying players because it might solve the bagmen problem. They support it since it is the right thing to do.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:29 PM ^
A free (full ride) out of state 4-year degree from UM costs about $275k ... and the degree itself on a present value basis is worth in excess of $1.5MM (lifetime earnings differential).
Scholarship student athletes, especially kids that would not otherwise qualify academically, are being more than adequately compensated.
But we do need to make sure need-based athletes are treated fairly and provided an additional living stipend to make sure they don't feel underprivileged while on campus. I am all for that.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:40 PM ^
I hear you that what players are receiving is valuable. But, the money to pay players is there. It's just going to rapidly inflating coaching/AD budgets, under the table payments, and frivolous facilities spending.
If everyone else is seeing giant increases in compensation from a fully-commercialized college sports system, why don't players deserve to be part of that?
November 29th, 2018 at 3:00 PM ^
How would you feel if your employer, rather than paying you money, gave you something you may or may not want with a sticker price that might even exceed what you currently make in spendable money? "More than adequately compensated," right?
November 30th, 2018 at 2:43 PM ^
If I agreed to it when I took the job, choosing it over alternatives which pay cash... then yes, absolutely adequately compensated.
...just like NCAA players can play in the CFL or numerous semi-pro leagues straight out of high school, but CHOOSE to play in the NCAA because they feel the non-monetary compensation in college is better than the monetary compensation in the pro leagues in which they can play.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:59 PM ^
Responding to your comment, not an argument for or against paying players. When reading many of these pay or don't pay players threads, it seems many people are unfamiliar with how football tenders work. Scholarship football players receive Full Grant-in-Aid which is the equivalent of cost of attendance and consists of tuition and fees, room and board, books, transportation and personal expenses related to attendance at the University. You can get a breakdown of residents/non-residents/upper lever/lower level for Michigan here: https://finaid.umich.edu/cost-of-attendance/
In addition, students with need may receive a Pell Grant (this year the max is $6095 for the academic year) on top of their cost of attendance. Here is a random example of a full need student's athletic tender as an upper division nonresident: COA= $67,850. This hypothetical athlete with high need will receive $67,850 + $6095= $73,945 for the academic year. This fake athlete lives off-campus and pays his own rent, so his student bill is only tuition and fees for the year which is $52,814. He then receives the remainder of the money as a stipend to spend towards housing, food, books etc. Simple math shows his refund is $21,131 or $10,565.50 a semester. At this point, it is up to the athlete to use that money wisely. Some kids choose cheap housing and spend their money in different ways. Some may lease a car, send money home, whatever. So yes, many of these athletes do have some spending money. It is up to the student athlete to budget that money for housing, personal expenses, books, transportation etc.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:10 PM ^
Paying players won't totally stop bagmen but it will make things better. There is no perfect solution so we should seek improving the current situation stepwise
November 29th, 2018 at 2:35 PM ^
Absolutely. Fixes for both are separate and should both be pursued.
The seedy underbelly of bagmen is not players getting paid, it's what the players and schools then owe to the bagmen.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:44 PM ^
I'm sure this is true. It simply shows how fundamentally incompatible universities are with revenue sports. The system assumes that a University education is reward enough for all players. The market has shown that this is definitely not the case and likely has not been the case for decades.
I support anything that rewards players, especially at the expense of conference administrators and TV executives. But there's no getting around the fact that the current system is unsustainable and slowly breaking apart.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:51 PM ^
There has always been smoke that Michigan players were getting paid and/or receiving academic benefits from back when I was at Michigan (Carr days) to more recent coaches. I don't know that the players are getting 6 figure signing bonuses, but have heard they had extra spending money that they shouldn't have.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:03 PM ^
When Chris Weber showed up on campus driving his white Hummer and full length white mink coat while still a student, that was evidence of the bagman. But I don't think you see that on campus at UM. Now I have heard that flashy stuff like that does occur widely across the SEC, especially at Alabama and Georgia.
I mean shit, couldn't Steven Ross just give every UM recruit the promise of a 4 year "summer internship" at like $50k per summer? Heck, just throw in a job for Mom or Dad as well. If UM boosters are "paying" kids it would show up in flashy stuff on player's backs not into academic buildings with tutors for athletes only.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:13 PM ^
I do remember seeing one current player at Michigan driving a very nice car. I don't know enough about cars to know how much it was worth, but I know that its nicer than any car someone that age normally drives. I don't take it as definitive proof players get incentives, but it raised my eyebrow a bit, but I don't have a problem with it either.
I do agree that we probably don't go anywhere near the SEC in terms of incentives.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:24 PM ^
Hummer didn't start selling trucks to the general public until a decade after Chris was at Michigan.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:33 PM ^
American cars during that period were hard to look at but I would see Chris driving around in a beat up blue/gray Camero and Jalen had a green Plymouth Duster that I think he shared with Jimmy.
November 29th, 2018 at 4:40 PM ^
well, thats just not true at all. The H1 was released to the civilian market in March of 1992
November 29th, 2018 at 1:52 PM ^
I am all for players making money off their likeness. It would bring back college football games and could allow players to have endorsement deals with national and local companies.
I still don't think the school can directly pay players under Title IX unless it offers the same amount to both male and female athletes. That get's really expensive when you are really spending dollars 2:1.
If the system ever gets "blown up" and payments are allowed, it should be totally free market. The best players will go to the schools that can afford them and the rest will fall away.
November 29th, 2018 at 1:53 PM ^
"Why should rich white guys in the NCAA and coaches and institutions get more and more, when kids in challenging circumstances basically get nothing. (Well, they get free room and board and tuition, but that's basically in exchange for working full time as a football player on a Division I team.)"
Hmmmm...is that true?
November 29th, 2018 at 2:05 PM ^
By and large, yes.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:27 PM ^
I am not a fan of making it racial. I get it but I just wish it could be a discussion of right and wrong.
Maybe someday.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:03 PM ^
Unfortunately, you can't dig deep into this issue without the tip of your shovel striking racial undertones. It is very much a racial issue at its core.
November 29th, 2018 at 7:16 PM ^
Surely there has to be another reason that soccer, hockey, tennis, and golf aren't as heavily restricted????
November 29th, 2018 at 1:57 PM ^
People like money you say? Next you're going to tell me water is wet.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:28 PM ^
The NCAA would pass a law stating that water is in fact NOT wet, if it could help them make more money off of uncompensated student athletes.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:03 PM ^
This is a professional sport in all but name. Pay them for their work.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:10 PM ^
I'm going to be contrarian here.
There is a group of blue bloods - Michigan and ND prominently among them who look down their noses at the idea of paying players, but in my view our schools should be very prominent proponents of paying players.
For those that think this would tilt the playing field more in favor of the SEC or Big 12 (or OSU) I politely disagree.
Once bidding on and paying players becomes within the rules who is going to compete with the money cannon that Michigan or ND would bring to the party?
Anyone actually think LSU or Auburn (or even Alabama) can hang with our money?
November 29th, 2018 at 2:13 PM ^
Totally agree. Not only should the players be compensated for moral/fairness reasons but Michigan would hugely benefit if payment was above board. Right now we're not 100% clean but we're getting outspent in the black market. Plus like you said... M is a money cannon
November 29th, 2018 at 2:27 PM ^
We could outspend any other school and not even notice it. Bama's under the table bagmen couldn't come close to matching the Michigan Alumni base, nevermind the endowment and billionaires with Michigan degrees.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:12 PM ^
Thank you for this post. I agree that everyone is under the table in some way or another. There really is no other way to compete. Maslow's pyramid on the lowest level is about basic survival; and what do those families need to survive? You guessed it: The Money.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:13 PM ^
As an astute observer of college sports, I am not surprised by any of this.
As a Michigan homer fanboy, I am not comfortable with this conversation.
Allow the players to make money off their likeness, and move on.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:15 PM ^
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit.
So Michigan "reps" pay but we don't pay enough to catch up with OSU?
Think about the logic for a second. Makes no sense. Either your agent buddy is full of shit or you need to explain how Michigan is hurt by this better.
November 29th, 2018 at 2:37 PM ^
My contact was saying some Michigan players receive compensation. He mentioned several prominent players by name. For one of them, it was a parent largely doing the fishing for compensation. My contact did not say whether the compensation was direct or indirect, but my understanding is that the compensation came from agents, and was indirect. I don't know about bagmen. He didn't go down the roster and list everyone who was and wasn't compensated. However, he did say that highly ranked high school kids who came from a position of poverty were extremely likely to be compensated, whether by agents or bag men.
My contact suggested that OSU was sleazier than Michigan, which has resulted in their highly rated recruiting classes.
My contact did not speculate about what was good or bad for Michigan. However, the conclusion I myself drew is that if agents and bag men aren't finding a way to compensate 5 star players, they aren't coming to Michigan.
I do believe that Michigan is becoming more and more competitive on the field, which opens the door for more and more 5 star kids to consider Michigan.
I rarely comment on it any more, because it draws the ire of the board, but I actually think there is a significant religious component for some players . . . I read somewhere, for instance, that Quavaris Crouch is a strong Christian, and that this is one of the reasons he is still considering Michigan. I don't know, but I think there is a difference drawn between indirect compensation, and teams that have a pretty sleazy, skeezy culture. I know there is a significant component of the team and the support staff who have strong religious beliefs.
What I'm trying to say is that many, many things play into where kids go. There is competitiveness, coaching, physical plant, academics, potential playing time, comfort with the players, spiritual climate, and other things I haven't even thought about. I'm suggesting that indirectly, the culture at Michigan has to support others giving incentives to players, if we are going to improve. I think that we were crippled on the field against OSU partially at least because they had better athletes.
November 29th, 2018 at 3:18 PM ^
I agree 5 star kids probably come across some form of compensation that is not given by any coaching staff, but my question is where is it coming from?
If it's Michigan reps then we should have the best bagmen in the world because we are Michigan and we have a lot of fucking really rich guys. That doesn't make sense. We have guys willing to spend, but they only pay for low level guys because they get out spent by some car dealer at Auburn?
If it's shoe reps then it gets spaced evenly, which we don't get hurt. If it's based on brand then we have the Nike Jordan brand and should have a boat load of money in these coffers as well.
I'm sure you trust this guy, but I'm just saying he sounds like a guy that likes to exaggerate and make it sound a lot more sensational than the reality.
OSU gets better players because they are in Ohio which has a better recruiting base, recent National titles and a Coach that has won National Titles. We need to come thru huge and beat them and start turning the tide. If we have a NC for Harbaugh to sell we will probably get better athletes.