Question about O-line development
A bit of a noob question for the board about o-line development and the job Ed Warner is doing.
I have heard many times how o-line prospects are some of the hardest to project position wise coming out of high school, because so much of the position is mental and physical growth to take place in the first couple years of college.
Also it seems a great deal of the O-line group success is how they learn to play together - as it requires probably the most synchronization of any group on the field as their activity takes place is such small quarters over a quick period of time (From snap to run/pass is usually 3 seconds or less). In a weird way I see them as elephants trying to dance ballet around each other - while simultaneously crushing opponents with power.
Anyways, my question is, given what seems to be improvement from the O-line this year since the ND game (reminds me of OSU losing to V-Tech in their first game in 2015 due to O-line issues, then running the table to win the title) - how much of the success of an O-line is due to talent, and how much is due to coaching and getting the players to function as a synchronized unit. Quick caveat (that OSU line that ended up dominating Bama in the playoff was also a Warinner coached outfit).
So Runyan and JBB have gone from the pitchfork and torches crowd calling them hot garbage, to seemingly serviceable to solid tackles in a relatively short time frame. This week, of course, will be a huge test, but run blocking seems to have never been their respective weaknesses fortunately.
I'm just glad we seem to be improving, but I also remember all the butt hurt we felt missing on Isiah Wilson and some other big recruits, as well as how set back we felt by Newsome's unfortunate injury.
TLDR - How good is Warinner?, How much of an O-lineman's individual success can be attributed to talent vs. coaching, and How much of an entire O-line's play can be attributed to talent vs. coaching?
Go Blue
October 17th, 2018 at 1:45 PM ^
Just glancing through their recruiting classes, it appears that Wisconsin, like Iowa, tend to get a lot of undersized guys and then bulk them up. Benzschwazel is listed at 240 in his 247 profile, for example. These guys are often ranked lower since they aren't "college ready" in terms of size.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:57 PM ^
Benzschawel was 240 in high school, and now he's listed at 317. That's 77 lbs. You've got to have one hell of an eye for OL prospects if you can take a 240 lb. guy and say, "yup, we can make a 315 lbs. tackle out of him." I guess that's kind of what Greg Frey does, but he's usually at least starting with guys in the 270, 280 range.
October 17th, 2018 at 2:21 PM ^
Exactly. Ryan Hayes is listed at 252 on his 247 page and will probably end up playing between 305 and 320. Beyond bone structure, I am not sure how anybody can project that kind of growth and how it will work on an athlete.
October 17th, 2018 at 3:25 PM ^
A conversation between a trainer and an OL coach
"Sir, he weighs 250 pounds. That's tiny."
"Feed him beef and cheese, and call me in 2 years."
"But sir, we need to put at least 50 pounds onto him. We have no idea what will happen."
"He will be large. I want him large. Now go!"
"But sir..."
"I SAID FEED HIM BEEF AND CHEESE."
October 17th, 2018 at 1:07 PM ^
IMO Warinner gets a bad rap as an OC. He built a lethal offense at Kansas -- Kansas!
October 17th, 2018 at 3:15 PM ^
Great article about that at the Athletic: https://theathletic.com/472430/2018/08/17/in-a-magical-fall-at-kansas-ed-warinner-showed-why-he-can-be-a-perfect-hire/
October 17th, 2018 at 1:08 PM ^
He seems to be really good. And the OL is playing well together. When many (including me) were calling for early appearances of Hudson and Mayfield in walkover games, the starting five stayed out there, and those reps seem to be paying off with better team play.
Stupid biff mistakes, which happened frequently last season, have practically vanished. Pass protection has been downright good in the last few games. One could argue that we haven't faced great DLs, but we faced one of the best DEs in the conference in The Gaz and Michigan had trouble with even mediocre outfits last year.
I think Runyan and JBB have limited physical ceilings, but they seem to be approaching their potential, and that's good. The injury to Nick Bosa, while unfortunate, is also a huge factor here, as he was the single biggest threat to this OL for the rest of the regular season.
Warinner is good. Pay the man.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:17 PM ^
I think they have improved, but how much remains to be seen. ND still the toughest defense we have faced. Lets so how they fare against a similar unit.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:18 PM ^
Historically coaches that cut their teeth at OSU have done very well at Michigan. It helps to know your enemy.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:22 PM ^
After we hired Warinner, I went on YouTube and saw a bunch of videos of the drills he puts players through. I knew at that point he would be successful and why he had previous success. He builds these lineman from the bottom up. I played some D1 hoops and I can tell you the difference between D1 an D3 is strength, size, and speed. Sure, the D1 players also have skill, but I knew far more D3 players who knew more about technique and the game because they had to be drilled in the basics to compete. Where as big time athletes often relied on their physical superiority. But when you get great coaches like Warinner or even Beilen, they teach these high ranked kids exceptional fundamentals and basics, then build from there. Who knows what Drevno was doing day in and day out, but whatever it was, it didn't seem to be a good fit. Maybe the lineman were too young and Drevno put too much on them.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:48 PM ^
The thing about Drevno is, he was with Harbaugh since USD and was the O-line coach who put those amazing Stanford lines together, so I don't think he lacks the ability to coach OL. You're right that whatever he was doing last season wasn't working--and really M never had anything approaching a Stanford OL during Drevno's time here. But I don't personally buy the notion that he was bad at developing OL.
Rather, when you look at 2017, keep in mind that M had Drevno coaching the interior OL and then they had Greg Frey coaching the tackles. And the main problem with the OL was in pass protection, where they would fail to identify blitzers, botch twist pickups, etc. and let a lot of free rushers in on the QB. But when you look at the development of the individual interior OL that Drevno was responsible for, it was excellent: Onwenu played well as a RS freshman, Ruiz contributed as a true freshman last year, Bredeson was fine, Spanellis...
So, I personally think that dividing up the OL coaching between two guys may have led to some serious communication breakdowns, continuity issues, or whatever. I don't know that I've ever seen a team have a different position coach for the interior OL and the tackles. But both Drevno and Frey had been successful OL coaches in their own rights before 2017 so it doesn't make sense that they would both suddenly suck last season. So having one coach for the entire OL may also be an underrated aspect of the whole improvement track. A lot of people forget that the offensive line UFR from the 2015 Utah game was dreadful; by the end of that season the OL was protecting the hell out of Rudock and paved Florida in the bowl game.
All that being said, Warinner may just be a flat-out better coach than either of them. Warinner was known as an OL guru back before OSU got him and he's done nothing to dispel that reputation. I'm glad we have him now and hope we keep him in A2 for a long time to come.
October 17th, 2018 at 2:32 PM ^
For as much as it seems people talk about the OL as one functioning unit and the need to get consistent reps with each of the players on the line in order to have a good cohesive performance, in hindsight, it doesn't seem to be a great idea to have two separate coaches for different parts of the OL.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:54 PM ^
I'm going to defend Drevno here (for the second time since last night, too!). First, I'll say this: last year was an abortion, and he deserved to be canned for it. However, I don't think it was all his fault. He got teamed up with Greg Frey, who has a very different OL strategy and wants very differently shaped guys from what Drevno wants. We grew up hearing that OL needs to be together as a unit to mind-meld together, but Frey and Drevno split up the OL coaching duties, and the OL. Instead of practicing as a unit, the OT's and TE's practiced together, while the OC'c and OG's did other things. I have to assume they came together for some drills, probably when the TE's practiced TE stuff.
I don't think Drevno and Frey got along very well, either. No reason to say this other than some of the comments we heard last year, and the overall fractured feeling of the entire staff.
None of us really whined about the 2015 and 2016 OL's, in fact, we liked 2016! The line play was trending up both seasons. Although we did recognize some limitations based on the players left over from Hoke, and the poor state of OL recruiting that Harbaugh inherited. And that bore out in 2017 - along with the above mentioned issues. I do think the OL (17 version) would have been better had the OL coach been only Drevno - or even only Frey. But both together played a part in the overall horrid performance.
All of that said, I believe Warinner is an upgrade. Probably because he started from ground zero, and I don't think Drevno, as a singular OL coach (because Frey left), would have.
October 17th, 2018 at 2:41 PM ^
Uhhh pretty sure you mean aboration :)
October 17th, 2018 at 2:59 PM ^
The word you're going for was "aberration," but no, I think he meant abortion.
October 17th, 2018 at 3:03 PM ^
Or perhaps aberration. But abortion has its own powerful effect.
October 17th, 2018 at 3:46 PM ^
I think either of them work here.
October 17th, 2018 at 3:52 PM ^
Yeah, they both work. But I correctly spelled the word I wanted to use...
October 17th, 2018 at 3:21 PM ^
I actually believed that not being able to put games away via the run game against Sparty in '15, and Iowa and OSU in '16 were the result of the O line.
October 18th, 2018 at 1:41 AM ^
Just looking at the Wisconsin game and the coaches up in the booth and on the sidelines, their body language shows that this set up seems to be working. I didn't think the committee thing would but it really seems the experience of these coaches is all working together nicely. It's great to see.
October 17th, 2018 at 3:29 PM ^
Played D-1 hoops...User name is Garde...Last name of Thompson?
October 17th, 2018 at 4:02 PM ^
I heard you could dunk.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:33 PM ^
The biggest difference this year is fewer busts. Everyone seems for the most part on the same page.
Technique seems to be next. I don't see as much leaning and reaching and guys (especially JBB) are playing balanced over top of their feet a lot more this year.
Lastly, I know S&C coaching hype is rarely real, but I do think Herbert made a difference. Listening to Harbaugh's podcast, it really sounds like the team bought in on getting stronger and more fit this year and are able to finish games tougher. Apparently they gave Herbert a game ball after the Wisconsin game.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:34 PM ^
While I'm still ecstatic with Saturday's performance, I feel that everyone is forgetting in the first half Karan had something like 10 carries for 15 yards.
October 17th, 2018 at 2:45 PM ^
True, but because Wisconsin was locked on to Higdon, that allowed Patterson to run free for 80+ yards, leading to our finally taking the lead in the First Quarter! Credit to our OC and Harbaugh for opening up the playbook with QB run plays JUST IN TIME!
October 17th, 2018 at 1:34 PM ^
Given the well-documented struggles of the OL since Carr left (and Jake Long for that matter), Ed could be my close second to Bo for favorite former OSU staffer (we've had more than you think)
October 17th, 2018 at 1:35 PM ^
I think our O-line coaching will really show its chops by late next year. We need this coaching for 24-36 months. Wisconsin does it right and it’s a multiple year process. That said his first half season has been phenomenal.
October 17th, 2018 at 1:36 PM ^
I think the coach gets a lot of credit here in this department and I hope we keep Warinner for as long as he wants to stay... There is a huge amount of improvement from Week 1 to now... All those home games against sub par teams helped too but I imagine you can only get so good in the offseason... With a new scheme, game snaps and game footage is what will really help capitalize on the implementation of something new... So thankful to actually write these comments because Week 1 was bad...
October 17th, 2018 at 3:42 PM ^
Wainner isn't going anywhere at least the next three years... he is re-upping his reputation after Meyer fired him, and theres no better place than here... he will be a demigod if we win the BIG, too.
October 17th, 2018 at 2:37 PM ^
Offensive Line is either the most important position in terms of coaching, or possibly second most important only to Quarterback. The line has to be able to effectively pick up and leave numerous stunts and blitzes due to play design, as well as utilize different techniques depending on the positioning of the DL and Linebackers. Obviously talent is still important, but it's so difficult. There's a reason it's the position that sees the fewest freshmen play.
October 17th, 2018 at 4:01 PM ^
I think the players answered this...Warinner greatly simplified things to start and has been added more at a pace that works. Because they have to work well together it makes sense to focus on mastering the simple stuff and building a strong base and then building from there as they show they can manage.
But its also talent. Even at its weakest spots (T) UM recruits at a higher level than almost everyone on the schedule. And even with average T the talent across the offense can more than make up for this relative weakness when the coaching and scheme is right.
October 17th, 2018 at 5:08 PM ^
Guy reminds me of and may be the next Jerry Hanlon. Coached under Bo for 22 years, 17 as OL coach. Produced 19 All Americans. He really didn’t need to recruit either.
October 17th, 2018 at 9:18 PM ^
I really like Warinner's explanation that there are maybe 5 things or decisions a lineman has to execute during a play. He tells them which two to focus on while he then sets a scheme to minimize the importance of the other three things so the lineman don't have to worry about them. So when Harbaugh calls the right play, the offensive line is well set to deliver.