Insights on our OL from a former college OL player
Hello all. I'm in the orthopedic industry and there a lot of former football players in the industry. Last week at conference, I met a former Auburn OL from the late 90s, early 00s. Nice guy. I mentioned that I'm a big Michigan fan, and said he really likes Michigan too. He played against us in the 2001 Citrus Bowl and was very complimentary of our program, especially our DL.
Anyway, he's somewhat of an OL junkie, in that when he watches football, he focuses most of his attention on OL technique and execution. Apparently, he often doesn't care about the score outcome of the game - he really enjoys watching a good OL at work. So I naturally asked him about our OL, and surprisingly he's watched a lot of our games over the years because of Harbaugh. His thoughts:
- For many years until recently, he thought our OL were way too undersized for the big ten. He didn't comment on if this was an RR or BH thing, just that he favored size (over athleticism) for the type of game that works well in the big ten.
- He thought the earlier years of Harbaugh lacked sufficient talent to be the quality Michigan should expect. He did remark that HS rankings for OL mean absolutely nothing. He laughed that he was decently rated out of HS and didn't even get drafted. He specifically mentioned a couple of our players from a couple years ago. He thought they was grossly over-rated from HS rankings.
- He thinks we have all the pieces to be a really good OL this year. He likes Warinner a lot and says he's one of the best. He watched the ND and Western game and said our OL is playing MUCH better than in the past few years. I said "well, what about our tackles?". His reply is that all OL have a weak link, you just have to scheme around it. He's seeing that this year with most of play calling this year.
- OL is a brotherhood where everyone on the line has to be in sync. At Auburn, the OLs did everything together (i.e. roommates, meals, etc.) and often times did things separately from the rest of the team to create that brotherhood bond.
- Overall, he thinks we'll probably have the 2nd best OL in the big ten by the end of year. Just stay the course. I'm not sure I'd agree with him here.
- Last un-related thing: he fully admitted that Auburn (and most other schools) back then was pretty corrupt. Apparently, they fed him this "food" that he had to eat. No clue what it was and it tasted like shit, but was required to eat it. Found out later, it was full of banned substances.
Anyway, thought I'd pass it along.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:42 PM ^
I recall a “Santa Fe Cassarole” and their version of Turkey a la King that still haunt me.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:47 PM ^
I had a salad and turkey sandwich about 3/4 of the time at Couzens in the late 90s after going through the main line and saying "nope."
September 18th, 2018 at 7:46 PM ^
I pretty much ate ham and cheese sandwiches at Couzens Hall every night when I was there in the mid 80's. Not the healthiest choice but pretty safe.
September 19th, 2018 at 9:19 AM ^
Even after all these years, the thought of South Quad's "Manhattan Meat Pie" still results in appetite reduction.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:58 PM ^
i lost about 20 pounds living in the dorm freshman year. i could not stomach much of what they offered and ate salad and bagels for most of the year. and pizza house....
September 18th, 2018 at 3:56 PM ^
Markley served something called Steak Kow every Wednesday evening. I'm still not sure what that stuff was.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:07 PM ^
It's a real thing -- a Cantonese (meaning China, not the township east of Ann Arbor) dish.
Here you go, http://www.simplyscratch.com/2015/02/steak-kow.html
September 18th, 2018 at 4:12 PM ^
They did serve it over white rice if memory serves, so I guess that checks out? I enjoy good Chinese cuisine. Mary Markley cafeteria Steak Kow was NOT good Chinese cuisine.
September 19th, 2018 at 12:09 AM ^
Does anyone else remember "Beef Short Ribs"?
Bones and grease
September 19th, 2018 at 9:35 AM ^
At least the BBQ sauce was good.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:36 PM ^
The thing about OL that makes them hard to rank in high school is that their bodies have to go through the most change to be field ready. 5 stars are 5 stars because their bodies are already ready or theyre freaks in some manner like petit frere last year. 100-1000 shows correlation, but it is definitely hard on scouting services.
September 18th, 2018 at 5:03 PM ^
No doubt. Especially since its so hard to predict good weight gain/ loss. Jalen Mayfield is a prime example of this:
He was the #268 ranked player in composite mostly because, even though he had great athleticism and length, they didn't know if he would put on enough good weight to be a legit power 5 tackle.
Nearly 30 lbs heavier with the same athleticism, he'd be ranked a 5* now.
September 18th, 2018 at 9:31 PM ^
haha hey im optimistic, but the guys played 1-2 drives against WMU. not yet ready to crown him a 5 star
September 18th, 2018 at 3:38 PM ^
I largely agree with the general statements made by your friend, but I don't understand the argument that Michigan's offensive line wasn't "big" enough for the Big 10. Last year's line averaged 6'4", 316lbs, which is larger than the national average and a solid 10 pounds more than average in the conference. I eyeballed OSU's depth chart, and their offensive line averages around 6'5" and 310 lbs; PSU came in a tiny bit shorter (6' 4") but heavier (323 lbs, which is apparently a record). Michigan is around 6' 4" and 320 lbs, though a lot of that is Onwenu being listed at 350 lbs and being 6' 3". And even in PSU's case, I'm not sure how much it's helped them on the ground; while they average about a half-yard more a rush than Michigan, their second leading rusher is Trace McSorley, which is mostly on scrambles and designed runs that I'm not sure matter all that much in terms of size.
There was a nice diary a couple of years ago that mapped out the average weights in the conference, and outside of Iowa and Wisconsin virtually everyone was bunched together around the same weight. So maybe a half-inch here or a couple of pounds there matters to someone in the trenches, but to my uneducated eye that doesn't strike me as all that relevant.
So again, it's always good to hear outsiders' views on the state of the program, and I'm sure he picks out really interesting nuances in how the line has played. I just was surprised about the size comment, unless he really believes that the size difference is a major detriment to the type of offense being run.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:51 PM ^
He may be referring to the RR years. 2009, for example, Michigan had maybe 5 or 6 guys over 300 lbs, and maybe a dozen under .
September 18th, 2018 at 4:23 PM ^
That makes sense, but for that particular offensive system it made sense.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:26 PM ^
He may also have felt pressure to make an expert pronouncement on a subject that he was only vaguely familiar with. In other words, he may not have know what he was talking about, which seems fairly likely in this case.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:52 PM ^
He was referring to some of the late Hoke/early Harbaugh teams. I’m not sure if that means anything, but I do remember us getting bigger guys on the OL when Harbaugh came in.
When he mentioned that to me, I remember when cris Carter said something to that effect right before The Game several years ago.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:00 PM ^
The Cris Carter comments came after we got rolled in 2015. Carter essentially said our OL was undersized to compete with OSU and he was correct.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:27 PM ^
Cris Carter also told NFL rookies that if they are going to break the law, they needed to have a fall guy in their crew to, well, take the fall. So he's maybe not all there.
Michigan's issues running the ball against OSU have existed for decades it feels like.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:36 PM ^
Maybe the OP's contact was referring to strength and domination vs. pure beefcake size and we are seeing the new S&C guy pay off?
September 19th, 2018 at 9:37 AM ^
Average starting OL weight 1988-2007:
295 lbs.
Average starting OL weight RR:
296 lbs.
Average starting OL weight Hoke:
301 lbs.
Average starting OL weight Harbaugh:
313 lbs.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:39 PM ^
I like what you're saying OP so I'm choosing to believe every word of it.
Having 2 OL coaches last year was probably a big mistake.
Also sounds like we need some of those required meals.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:04 PM ^
look at the dumpster fire FSU is with Frey as their line coach. i don't understand how that guy has such a great reputation as a line coach. both stints with us were sub-par and now FSU is starting the year 1-2.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:38 PM ^
Too early to tell with Frey there. He walked into a dumpster fire and is known for taking underweight tackles out of high school and develop them into really good tackles after they put on enough weight a couple years later.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:43 PM ^
Frey has a great reputation because he has gotten results at UM under RR and at Indiana where he was cranking out AAs like Dan Feeney and Jason Spriggs.
When he started out with RR our OL had been a mess for a couple of years. The only starter left (after Boren transferred) was Schilling. Undersized red-shirt freshman Dave Molk was also on the roster. They recruited and developed Omameh, Barnum and Lewan. Frey turned all those guys into at least all conference players. They also recruited Jake Fisher who decommitted after RR was fired.
Against his proven record it's hard to blame Frey for last year where 2 coaches were splitting OL responsibility. It should also be noted that he gets credit for recruiting Jalen Mayfield, a guy many Mgousers want to start as a true freshman. He has a great reputation because he has earned it.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:40 PM ^
We just need to trust Harbaugh. He can't bend the rules or bring in quick-fix JUCOs, so it will take time.
It's nice to see validation of his methods by "professionals"
Also, this likely explains why he's not putting the young guys out there just yet. He knows they need to gel and playing in cupcake blowouts is just part of that process
September 18th, 2018 at 3:44 PM ^
I think the JUCO thing hurts us. As far as I understand it our FB players get in on the NCAA minimum gpa, which no regular student could do, so why not loosen up a bit with the out of state JUCO transfers? Hell, even allowing 2-3 on scholarship at a time could help to fill a position of need.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:43 PM ^
I have a friend who grew up in Ann Arbor in a Michigan family close to the football program who believes he's heard enough to "guarantee" to 20-40% of every scholarship roster should technically be ineligible for banned substances. He says it used to be institutional (forced "food" (?), I'm not sure, but university-santioned) but now is driven by individual players scared to get behind -- and perhaps that is less safe.
I'm skeptical, but my skepticism is mostly based on hopes, dreams, and the observation that there are precious few annual PED suspensions in NCAAF. But when confronted with the same observation, this friend strongly contends that the explanation is in enforcement/testing being famously lax, rather than in PEDing because proportionally low.
Lame if true.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:56 PM ^
I believe him completely. The reason there are few suspensions is because the testing methods are comically out of date.
Cycling and track are two of the only sports that seriously try to catch dopers, and it’s killed their public image. Consequently, the other sports stick to joke testing standards that they know perfectly well aren’t going to catch anyone (save an unlucky handful who forgot to take their masking agent before the test).
September 18th, 2018 at 3:48 PM ^
oral-only steroid cycles are high-risk, low-reward. A team that just dumps crushed-up Anavar into its training table meals is not going to accomplish much
September 18th, 2018 at 3:53 PM ^
No doubt. The more modern equivalent would be hGH, though without a booster to supply or support it, I doubt any players can afford the mutli-tens of thousands it would annually cost to maintain its administration.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:50 PM ^
I can completely believe that last part and don’t think it’s just an SEC thing either. Drug testing is pretty much a joke at this level.
September 18th, 2018 at 3:56 PM ^
2nd best OL in the conference?? If that turns out to be true, I'll eat some of that Auburn substance
September 18th, 2018 at 3:59 PM ^
OK, summary:
Our OL kinda better this year
But still needs a lot of work
And might be good by the end of year if everything is OK
Other programs cheat
September 18th, 2018 at 4:32 PM ^
I agree and disagree about the reliability of star rankings for offensive lineman. While it's true that most high school seniors need several years of weight training and weight gain to be division one game ready, the genuine 5 star line recruits are often ready to go as freshman or sophomores. Here, for example, is Alex Leatherwood as a high school senior. He needs neither roids nor weight gain, in my amateur opinion.
September 18th, 2018 at 5:50 PM ^
Foolish to assume high school kids aren't using gear. They are.
September 18th, 2018 at 4:42 PM ^
No doubt it's correct that the whole of an Oline is always greater than the sum of it's parts, especially recruiting parts.
The key ingredient for a unit that relies so much on chemistry is leadership. And both Bredeson & Ruiz are better leaders on the Oline than they've had in some years, plus a singular voice coaching it ........(+warriner > drevno).
I like their chances to be a really good unit, with solid upgrades in the wings, by the end of the year.
September 18th, 2018 at 6:57 PM ^
Not sure I buy that "OL will improve by the end of the year" thought. We've been chanting that for ten years, or so. Never seems to happen. Some of the hoped for improvement is no doubt offset by opposing DL improvements keeping pace with our efforts. We can't realistically assume that only our team will get better, can we?
September 19th, 2018 at 9:41 AM ^
We can't realistically assume that only our team will get better, can we?
Well, considering this is what most of the posts on here consist of, I'd say we absolutely can make that assumption.
September 18th, 2018 at 5:57 PM ^
How much blame should be placed not on the OL, but on the inability of the RBs and TEs to pickup the late blitzes/stunts?
Wilson has made a few key blocks that have accounted for some big plays. I don't know if the same could be said for Higdon and certainly not Evans.
OSU does not have a great OL, but they have RBs that are solid in pass pro.
September 18th, 2018 at 6:01 PM ^
i dont know what it is but higdon and mckeon do draw my ire... higdon seems to half ass blocks and then leaves tons of yards on field.. but he does offset it by some tough runs... it was odd because after he had that breakout game awhile ago, his vision got worse.
mckeon is an anomaly... still pissed about the msu fumble...and then last week he doesnt come back for the ball... gentry has passed him, as predicted.... maybe its the 'stache that wrongfully annoys me....
September 18th, 2018 at 6:46 PM ^
What are you-an Evans groupie??? Higdon does not leave yards on the field-the kid plays his ass off.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:46 PM ^
Gentry didn't come back to a ball on an O'Korn interception last year and O'Korn was visibly pissed about it. But all you could read on here was how bad O'Korn was and absolutely nothing about Gentry failing to attack the ball. I think it's likely a coaching flaw that our big guys don't win jump balls or become defenders when necessary.
September 18th, 2018 at 5:58 PM ^
this take is SPOT ON.... for years i have thought the same thing about our lines size... Michigan's lines of old were of Wisconsin's size today...big and menacing..then it went awry with the late RR years (although score a few for Lewan, and maybe Schofield, though he should have been kicked inside)...then onto Hoke, who puts Cole at LT...this was an abomination.... Cole was small to begin with and should be center...even at G he was small by old Michigan standards... Harbaugh is doing the same thing with Runyan at T.....
and i couldnt help but think that he was referring to Kalis, regarding his recruit ranking being out of whack...
September 19th, 2018 at 7:34 AM ^
Kalis and Magnusson were the OL recruits that had us all losing our minds back in 2012.
September 18th, 2018 at 6:02 PM ^
re HGH, I bet harbaugh has them drink a ton of milk, which is full of HGH.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:32 PM ^
Ironically, I ran into a former college football coach at a Waffle House and his take on Urban Meyer is that he's a pompous liar who puts winning above all else.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:48 PM ^
This is known fact by now. But I'm starting to seriously believe he may be a sociopath.
September 18th, 2018 at 7:55 PM ^
One of the better board posts in a while, assuming it’s mostly true. Thanks for sharing.