Hand : Elephant in the room
I read this morning on the Rivals Board from Balas that Hand went to Bama for academic reasons and chose engineering. Hand came to his Michigan official visit wanting to be an engineering student. Our engineering program is far more reknown than Alabama. It doesn't make sense at first glance, but when you get into the story further it kind of makes a lot of sense.
Now this may or may not have happened, but reading between the lines about what the result of Hands recruitment was I assume Michigan said to him "Son, we have seen some kids try to do it and it doesn't work out well. Why not take a look at this wonderful sports management program we have."
Alabama on the other hand said to him "Son, it is difficult, but we have kids doing it right now and they can mentor you and we have processes in place to help you out. It is going ot be mighty difficult, but if you want to give it a shot then that's up to you."
Obviously this is all my assumption. Also, credit the sports managment prof for making a hell of an impression and nearly changing the course of Hands future.
The things we do know are Hand was "steered" toward sports management on his official.
He chose Alabama over us even though we have the superior engineering program (by a long shot).
My question is why did (do) we do this? Why not give the kid a shot if he wants to try engineering? Why do exactly what Harbaugh said we do (and got crushed for saying so)? Why take away one of our major advantages over other schools?
Also do you think my assumptions are off in the first place?
Sorry for bringing this up, but it has been bothering me.
November 15th, 2013 at 3:02 PM ^
If this is how it all happened, I imagine this:
Hand goes to Michigan, and Hoke tells him that it's borderline impossible to be a football player and make it through the engineering school. Hoke does this b/c he believes it's true. Hand goes to Bama, and they tell him he can make it through their engineering school thanks to all the support they'll give him. At this point, the two schools are talking about apples and oranges. Hoke is talking about an engineering degree from a better school that Hand would have to earn on his own, albeit with a good amount of support. Bama is talking about a degree from a lesser school that Hand will kinda-sorta earn thanks to the ton of help - possibly more than is ethical - he'll have in getting his degree. Hand doesn't appreciate this difference, and here we are - Alabama is a better academic opportunity than Michigan, because hey, he can get an engineering degree at Bama.
If anyone thinks this is overly cynical or self-serving, I'll say this: I went to KU as an undergrad. My understanding there was that the basketball players received the sort of "help" with their classes that some might call "cheating."
November 15th, 2013 at 3:55 PM ^
Everything we've been told says that Hand is a serious student. While KU and Bama might well offer this kind of help--not saying they do--it doesn't sound as if Hand would be asking for it. This was one of the reasons he was so appealing to us.
November 15th, 2013 at 4:00 PM ^
I thought of him as simply taking what Alabama said at face value and not realizing that "You can get an engineering degree" meant "You can get an engineering degree so long as we spoon-feed you the answers, which we'll do."
I'm getting far into an imagined history now, though, and what's done is done. I wish him the best.
November 15th, 2013 at 4:29 PM ^
my niece tutored for the football program at Mich for 2 years. As she said, sometimes it is hard to tell where tutor ends and student athlete begins--most papers and take-homes were always some mix of tutor/student. And I suspect that is true of non-athletes who have tutors--it kinda comes with the territory.
I stand by my assertion that the comment was intended as a clear shot at Alabama and an implicit one at Hand--- he either understood someone else would do his work at Alabama or he was simply too (lets call it) naive it get it.
November 15th, 2013 at 5:19 PM ^
It painted Alabama in a negative light, but that really wasn't my point. I was simply trying to envision how the situation could have unfolded.
As for Hand, again, please tell me what I intended. Also, am I thirsty? Do I have to pee? I can't tell...And I don't think it's bad to imagine an 18 year old being naive. I was naive as hell at 18. Of course Hand is probably naive. He's a senior in high school!
November 15th, 2013 at 5:38 PM ^
Does anyone really think that Alabama Engineering is all that much easier to get through than Michigan Engineering? As an Engineer, I can tell you it probably isn't. Just because Michigan has a higher ranked engineering school doesn't mean it's much harder than Alabama.
The thing about engineering is that there is no faking it. All the tutors in the world aren't going to get you through it, you have to be smart and you have to be willing to work very hard. It's not for everyone.
Hand cited several reasons why he chose Bama, academics was one, but we aren't sure what he meant by that. We need to face it though, Bama is the premier program in the country and they are an NFL factory who gives him a great chance to win a title.
November 15th, 2013 at 5:51 PM ^
Does anyone really think that Alabama Engineering is all that much easier to get through than Michigan Engineering?
yes. I have taught courses at less prestigious schools and there are a lot of engineers at places like the university of toledo who don't know much about physics, but still managed to graduate with an engineering degree. I have also tutored athletes at Michigan and it is VERY easy to cross that blured line that between just who is acutrally doing the HW, writing the paper, solving the take home exam problems. Michigan does a very good job of managing this, FWIW. at places like Bama, I would expect the the help Hand will get may go beyond what I and many would be comfortable with.
I also think people are misinterpreting "a pretty good/serious HS student" with someone who can manage 25-40 hrs a week playing B10 football and the 50-60 hours a week managing an engineering degree at a place like Michigan. Now, maybe I'm mistaken, but I know a ton of great HS students who are accepted at places like Cornell, RIT, WPI, etc who would absolutely drown in that schedule. maybe he could do it, IDK- but it would take a hell of a lot more than "being a good student" to be successful with that.
November 15th, 2013 at 4:04 PM ^
at all. And he never said Hand wasn't a serious student. He did say the support structure at Bama might've been leaned on more by Saban which could've made him feel more at ease.
November 15th, 2013 at 4:29 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 4:49 PM ^
you don't know what Alabama's or Michigan's engineering department said to Hand. Shockingly, you project what makes us look good and Bama bad.
And if they are providing better (legitimate) academic support, then good for them--though I suspect ours is pretty good.
November 15th, 2013 at 5:58 PM ^
I can all but guaruntee that the UM Coll of engin. did not offer the kind of "support" Alabama did.
You have to understand- the M engineering deans, professors, etc get phDs and master's and undergrad degrees at places like MIT, stanford, Cal Tech. they wouldn't knwo a football if it hit them in the face. They literally don't give 2 shits about football players who are pretty good at science and math in high school and ask about 'academic support' from the engineering college.
November 15th, 2013 at 6:05 PM ^
Boy that sure is a blanket statement. Not backed up by my experience. Maybe Chemical Engineers are just cool or something but you're probably just wrong.
November 15th, 2013 at 7:00 PM ^
well, I'd love to hear about your experience
November 15th, 2013 at 8:41 PM ^
your experience at Alabama???
Arrogance without fact is a dangerous thing. Bear in mind, most of us on here attended U of M for 1 or more degrees. We love the school, understand its reputation in the academic community, yet knew many not brilliant students who managed to get through engineering and other programs. I just don't choose to denigrate Alabama without more than rank conjecture nor presume to assume they offered anything untoward--just cuz we don't like them and they took our guy.
And I have no reason to believe Hand did not get good advice from his parents or whoever--just like we did despite our naivete--when we selected a college.
Jeezus some of us our poor losers.
November 15th, 2013 at 6:08 PM ^
Does a "B" average make you a serious student? Woodbridge is an average public high in Virginia. A "B" average in high school is good, but not great, and certainly isn't predictive of getting into a rigorous program like Engineering or Business school at U of M. But Hand is no Rolle.
If he needs the help to get over the hump, great. No concerns there. But he's not going to be in a position to get hand-holding/help to handle the rigors of our prestigious programs at UM.
That being said, kudos to him for picking a program that he can see himself succeeding in. If Bama's program is less rigorous, he'll be more likely to succeed and actually get that engineering degree. It's tough with all the football related commitments and hours. So I don't blame the kid.
November 15th, 2013 at 8:50 PM ^
I never said a great student--I said serious student. That was how he has been consistently represented while we were recuiting him--we were proud of that fact and thought it gave us a leg up. Now that we have been spurned, he's just average. Next we'll suggest he doesn't really deserve to be a 5*.
I'll have to start giving more kudos to my nephew and niece who are both recent grads in engineering--I didn't realize how rigorous their program was and how gifted they were.
Also wondering if when we beat Stanford out for a recruit we opine that we were chosen because our undergraduate curriculum isn't as onerous as Stanford's.
November 15th, 2013 at 5:41 PM ^
THIS. EXACTLY THIS
ERIK IN DAYTON WINS
November 15th, 2013 at 3:43 PM ^
Must be that new waterfall they had installed. 
November 15th, 2013 at 2:42 PM ^
And decided he would rather play for an elite program, rather then trying to get Michigan to the elite level. I'm not sure Michigan will ever be an elite team with Hoke. But, I'll take a 10 game per year win team, which I think Hoke can deliver in a few years.
This was definitely not an academic decision, it was a pure football decision.November 15th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^
It was never an academic decision.
We know that.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^
Really? the whole premise of this post is presuming that the coaches and academic staff told Hand he shouldn't try to be an engineer while Alabama did the opposite, but there is no actual, you know, "proof" of that? The reason he chose Alabama is because of 3 NCs/4years, not because he wants to be a civil engineer. Because I hate to say it, if he expects to play in the NFL for at least a little bit of time (which should happen), he'll be entering the "normal" workforce more than a decade after his last relevant experience with civil engineering. I took a couple of years "off" to go to law school and was pretty amazed at the changes made in software development over that time, and I don't think my experience is atypical. He is going to Alabama and good luck to him, but this theory has been discussed numerous times before and it sounds like whiny elitism from a jaded lover.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^
Look, we have had a few football players major in Engineering. It can be done. That is all the recruiters have to tell them. The recruiters can tell them that there is a chance they will not be admitted to their program of choice. That part is up to the athlete. We must be honest and help but it makes no sense to get an ill-prepared student into an academic program they are not prepared for. On the other hand, that is what summer school is for, preparation. Tutors are available for athlete-students.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^
Get over it. He went to Bama because they are better at football. Also, Saban is the best coach in the game right now. That anyone thought he was coming here is a bit odd.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 3:14 PM ^
Given that Hoke has a team of academic advisors working with his football team, I think he has an idea of what his players go through academically here.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:47 PM ^
Alabama football > Michigan football. End of story.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:47 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 2:48 PM ^
but frankly if you are a 5* you have something like a 1 in 10 chance to get drafted in the first round. going to 'bama instead of michigan helps make that more of a surety with their recent sucess of sending guys to the league (much love to mike martin and brandon graham). he will make more in signing bonus and one year salary than he will in a two decades of being an engineer. he has a gift and a talent and half of success is no messing up decisions that allow you to capitalize on the luck of having a gift.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:49 PM ^
BOY LEMME TELL YOU, IF THIS STAFF IS SCREWING UP ONE THING, ITS RECRUITING
November 15th, 2013 at 2:54 PM ^
This is perfect.
November 15th, 2013 at 2:53 PM ^
We have always known that academics is important to Hand. Now all of a sudden (since the moment he committed to Alabama) Michigan people are acting as if all he cared about was football. The same kid we praised as a potential recruit for caring about academics is now being treated as if it was only about football.
We know that if he wanted to study engineering he was going to choose Alabama. To me, this only makes sense if he was steered away from the engineering program at Michigan.
November 15th, 2013 at 3:31 PM ^
None of that is actually "known". We know he said he cares a lot about academics, but so do a lot of recruits who end up choosing Alabama (or Ole Miss, or LSU, or wherever) over a "superior" academic insitution (Michigan, or Virginia, or GA Tech, or Stanford, or wherever). "Caring about academics" is not the same thing as going to the top ranked academic school that offers them.
It is also not "known" that Alabama was his choice if he was going for Engineering. He talked a lot about how much he liked it there, and "experts" assumed that, but they also generally predicted he was going to Michigan, so what is really "known"?
November 15th, 2013 at 6:11 PM ^
well then we don't "know" anything really. Look, all we have to go on is what Hand and trust worthy insiders like Sam Webb have to say. From there it's deductive logic.
the problem here is that when people hear academics, they think it means "highest rated school according to US News" or "best acedmic rep" or w/e.
However, we have a pretty clear indication what academics means to HAND, that is: "the ability to study engineering AND play NC football"
Alabama gives him the best opportunity to do that for the reasons I have been explaining.
November 15th, 2013 at 5:21 PM ^
The praise came from the idea that academics would play a major role in his decision. Choosing Alabama for engineering makes ZERO sense with that belief. Dude should be going to Stanford if he wanted engineering and football. Again there's nothing wrong with him going to Alabama but putting up the idea of academics is just a joke.
November 15th, 2013 at 7:08 PM ^
what he means by "academics" isn't what you hear.
"I, D Hand, place academics at a high priority in my decision to commit to a football program"
You hear: "I, D Hand, want to go to the best/most prestigious, most highly regarded school and engineering program and play football"
What he actually means: "I, D Hand, want to go to a place that will allow me to study engineering AND play NC-caliber football at a program that will help me get to the NFL"
November 15th, 2013 at 2:52 PM ^
I have a BSEE and MSEE...It is super tough to graduate engineering AND play football. Hand made this decision because of three items. First, football. Second, he is not sure if he could have even gotten in to UofM's engineering school. Third, even if he did, he was probably unsure if he could handle it. Bama is above on all three of these issues (trust me on the third one, Bama's engineering school would have 1/10 the competition as UofM's amongst students thereby making it easier to graduate)
November 15th, 2013 at 2:53 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 2:58 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 2:58 PM ^
Ugh, this fanbase sure is insufferable some times.
Yes, I'm talking about you. And no that isn't directed at His Dudeness.
November 15th, 2013 at 4:05 PM ^
glad you're here to make that comment. Thank you for your contribution.
November 15th, 2013 at 6:07 PM ^
Happy to help!
November 15th, 2013 at 3:07 PM ^
Why would you call Hand an elephant?
November 15th, 2013 at 3:09 PM ^
Saban has 4 national titles, 7 ten-win seasons, five 12-win seasons, eight top 10 finishes (including one at Sparty). He coached under Bill Bellicheck and is about to win his third national championship in a row.
Hoke has never won his conference. Had two 10-win seasons, and has never beaten a ranked team on the road. His claim to fame is that he knows Tom Brady.
Engineering at Alabma might have helped, but that's not why Hand didn't come to Michigan.
November 15th, 2013 at 3:13 PM ^
I stopped thinking about his recruitment at 1:30 pm yesterday
November 15th, 2013 at 3:19 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 3:21 PM ^
and demanding in terms of time; that's a typical hallmark of elite-level programs. It's never been established one way or the other whether Hand has the credentials to gain acceptance into UM's engineering program, and due to confidentiality rules we'll never know unless Hand himself says something about it.
It does seem to be the case that Alabama will do what it can to make it possible for him to pursue an Engineering degree, and if part of that is due to the fact that it's not as rigorous a program as Michigan's, there's not much UM can, or should, do about it.
However, to claim that Hand doesn't care at all about academics solely and only because he wanted to pursue engineering at Alabama instead of a SM degree at Michigan implicitly assumes that an Engineering degree from Alabama is worthless, that the faculty are uneducated boobs, and that Bama engine grads are all working as UPS drivers, short-order cooks, and lawncare drones instead of working as professional engineers.
Are Alabama engine grads as likely to work in high-powered graduate research programs across the country as UM grads? Very probably not, but then Hand never said he wanted to work in graduate-level engineering research programs at MIT or CalTech or Stanford, did he? For all we know, he may simply want, when his NFL playing days are over, to be a practicing civil engineer in some capacity, far away from high-powered research institutions. To think that he cannot do that with an engine degree from Alabama simply because the program is lower-ranked than Michigan betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how broad the field of engineering is in the real world.
All that being said, the reason I thought that Hand was ultimately going to choose Alabama was because his immediate goal after college will be to play professional football, and his chances of getting a huge contract as a DL are better if he's playing in the SEC for Bama, especially if he's playing in NC games and SEC championships. I believe that the opportunity to attend Engine school in Tuscaloosa simply helped to clinch the deal. What he does with that opportunity at Alabama and after his NFL career is done is up to him.
November 15th, 2013 at 6:13 PM ^
this is exactly right.
November 15th, 2013 at 3:21 PM ^
November 15th, 2013 at 3:34 PM ^
Peppers is not leaving.
I would wager that if Peppers flips to Bama I will eat my hat and post it on YouTube.