OT: What is fundamentslly different about the Lions team/org *now* as opposed to the last 40-some years?
Am someone born a Lions fan but stopped paying close attention years (decades) ago... maybe the days of Wayne Fontes was when I last could recite most of the roster? Still liked to see when they won, but it has never meant as much to me as Michigan/Redwings/Tigers since those days. My viewing most of the time since was their annual disappointment on Thanksgiving - just something that became a less-than-exciting, but required, part of the holiday tradition.
I did hear/observe enough to note the near constant turnover, most notably at HC. It seemed over the years that some had momentum going at times but were just let go after only a few years (Mariucci, Schwartz, Caldwell?) No one ever seemed to get over the hump, so to speak. Sentiment from my friends/family who followed closely always seemed to blame the org (Ford family, GM/Millen, etc.) for things like wasting draft picks, making bad trades, hiring wrong coaches or firing too soon, etc.
So... what is so different this time? I know that there is a new member of the Ford family in charge (Sheila), and word is that she was instrumental in the turnaround... but what has changed? Is this just a case of having *that* better of a coach now than the past 30+ years? Seems doubtful to hire nothing but poor coaches in such a long period. Is the team better at finding/accumulating talent now than in that previous period? Maybe just better luck these days (bad refs aside)? Probably a little of everything, I imagine... but where was the "spark"?
I'm not accustomed to seeing the Lions being successful and just do not have enough detailed knowledge of the organization to point to where the real turnaround originates.
Anyone mind providing a brief summation?
Thanks!
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:01 AM ^
Top 5 OL and top 10 DL for Lions and top 5 OL and DL for Wolverines.
That's been the key to the Wolverines and Lions resurgence back to the top.
The corollary to this is why OSU is struggling. Great backfield of QB, RBs and WRs, but their OL has gotten worse each year under Day. It's good enough to handle the bad teams but struggles against top defenses.
I think there's also a culture piece that seems to be changing from the top down as well.
January 22nd, 2024 at 7:06 AM ^
I believe this is the answer. I’ve felt exactly like OP - liked to see the lions win, but didn’t really care much either way. Now, I’m seeing what successful organizations have had and wonder if Detroit can continue the momentum or if it’ll be a one-off. I fear they may not be able to withstand losing excellent coordinators.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:28 AM ^
Check successfull coaches/orgs for reference including the owners willingness on their spending habits:
The next evlotion and telling sign(s) will be if Dan and Brad can bring in successful coordinators with each successful season regarding whatever turnover may occur. The 'Firm' foundation seems to be in place. In my view now is the time we (The NFL world) will see what happens with FA pickups as well as whomever the new coordinator(s) may be?
Only one team wins the Super Bowl each year. Howerver, many likely feel, with the foundation that is in place along with player personel and execution on field the Lions can be perenial playoff contenders.
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:54 AM ^
I’ve felt the consistency thread between how Michigan wins and the Lions win, as well.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:18 AM ^
Hutch> Common denominator.
January 22nd, 2024 at 9:57 AM ^
They've also hit on their draft picks recently. Gibbs, LaPorta, Hutchinson, Williams, Sewell, and I'm sure a few others (edit: St Brown) that escape me right now have all hit right away and hit big.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:40 AM ^
It's good coaching combined with excellent draft classes. There are way more hits than you're mentioning. In the last 3 drafts, here are players that are playing a significant role: 2023: Gibbs (RB), Jack Campbell, Sam LaPorta (TE), Brian Branch (nickel) 2022: Hutchinson (DE), Jameson Williams (WR), Josh Paschal (DE), Kerby Joseph (DB), James Houston (LB), 2021: Penei Sewell (OL), Levi Onwuzurike (DL), Alim McNeill (DT), Ifeatu Melifonwu (DB), Amon-Ra St Brown (WR), Derrick Barnes (DE). That's 15 "hits" over 3 years with basically no misses. The guys not playing (8 others in the last 3 classes) big roles were drafted late or Hendon Hooker.
For comparison, in 2020, we drafted Okudah #3 overall. He played but way under expectations. Swift #35 overall. He has talent but as a change of pace back at best. Okwara at #67, he's on the roster and plays a role. Johnah Jackson #75 overall, best player in the entire draft class, pro-bowl level guard. Logan Stenberg (#121), Q Cephus (#166), Jason Huntley #177, John Penisini #197, Jason Cornell #197. That's 1 huge hit with Jackson and 1 contributor (Okwara) - everyone else is off the roster even though they could all be in rookie contracts still.
2019 has 0 contributors on the team. 2018 has 2 (Frank Ragnow/Tracy Walker), 2017 has 2 fringe contributors (Reeves-Maybin and Agnew). There aren't many names that have left the team and been successful either. Kenny Golladay had potential but is always hurt. Of these 4 classes I'm seeing 8 guys contributing to a team in the NFL and 2 all-pro-level players in Ragnow/Jackson.
That's 2 "hits" (calling Switt and Okudah hits) per class from 2017-2020 compared to 5 per class 2021-2023.
The Lions should keep getting better if we can hold on to our talent for once and continue solid coaching and development. .
January 22nd, 2024 at 5:55 PM ^
Think they have 40+ cap sapce?
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:38 AM ^
While you are correct, I believe these are artifacts of what happened up front that led to the focus on the OL and DL.
From what I have heard, Shelia is an astute business person and truly personally invested in seeing the Lions win. To me, it starts there. She made a great hire by bringing in Chris Spielman as a consultant - vast network, smart evaluator of talent, and vested interest in the Lions success.
This led to the hiring of Brad Holms, who at the time was the assistant GM for the Rams and was credited in the drafting of most of the talent the Rams acquired for their Super Bowl...
From there, they went off the chart and picked Dan Campbell, a former Lion, understands Detroit, has the personality that fits Detroit, and was a raising Assistant under Sean Peyton (good pedigree)...
The first sign they were going to be different was on Draft day 2021 when they are jumping up and down visibly celebrating that Sewell fell to them. It showed just how much they value OL...
Now Holmes has continued to show is skill in drafting talent, acquiring ~4 legit NFL players each draft he has handled. Three drafts in and the results are really showing:
2021 - Sewell, McNeill, Melifonwu, St. Brown, and Barnes - The simple fact that in his first draft, his first 3 picks were OL, DL, DL spoke volumes about him...
2022 - Hutch, Williams, Paschal, Joseph, Mitchell, Rodriguez, Huston - Note that 10 of his first 14 picks - 10 were for Defense; 6 of his first 14 picks - OL/DL. Building the lines and a defense
2023 - Gibbs, LaPorta, Branch, and Campbell - If you recall, the "talking heads" were critical of this draft. "Holmes is not following 'Draft position slotting'!!! What is he doing? He is over valuing players! Why take a RB and TE this high?" Well thank goodness Holmes is the smart one making the calls while the dim lighted talking heads are just that, blowing a ton of hot air...
If there was a redraft today, both Gibbs and LaPorta are top 10 picks...
So you have 16 impact players from the last 3 drafts (plus stashing a potential QB of the future in Hooker). Stick that with a QB you believe in (and acquired additional draft capital with it), you now have a winning franchise...
Makes me feel good about the upcoming off season, not because the draft was normally known as the Lions "Super Bowl" but seeing Holmes track record in drafting. Adding another 3-4 impact players to this team (PLEASE PLEASE BE 2 - CBs and another impact DE) makes this team set up for a good run.
Oh BTW, the Lions are also way under the cap ($45M going into next year), so they have room to resign key personal (Sewell, Hutch) while selectively look through the FA market for any additional help....
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:48 AM ^
I agree with everything you wrote. One little bit to add, the Lions used to let their star players retire as Lions. Barry and Calvin Johnson finished their careers as Lions. Stafford was traded for their current, younger QB, and 3 draft choices.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:15 AM ^
Before the Lions let their star players like Calvin Johnson and Barry Sanders retire as Lions they drove them away by refusing to pay them what the marketplace told them they were worth. (Anyone remember Ron Jessie?).
When Russ Thomas was GM the general opinion (in actual print media/local newspapers) was that as an organization the Lions were focused much more on managing the owner's money than on winning. I felt that finally changed when they hired Bobby Ross in the late 90s. I can't remember the specifics around that hire (but I recall he was a popular, sought after coach at the time), but it was my impression that this hire signaled a change in the organization: they were -- finally -- actually trying to win. They just weren't any good at it.
So what's changed in the 2 1/2 decades since then to get them to the point that they are actually winning - and that this might even be sustainable? I suspect it starts with Sheila Ford Hamp -- I don't know exactly what it is, but it seems like she knows what she's doing. Hopefully she, Campbell, and Holmes will stick around for a long time.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:54 AM ^
Russ Thomas was not a good GM and WCF was not a good owner. That's a tough combination to overcome. Seeing the WCF on the their uniform sleeves still irks me.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:10 AM ^
That's a long winded way of saying they got the right GM and then coaches finally. Either Sheila Ford Hamp is a much more astute judge of the people she hires or we just finally got lucky.
The Lions have always been a first class organization with the unique ability to hire the wrong guy at the wrong time. Until now. And don't forget, we did get this far once before. Nothing says it turns out any different.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:15 AM ^
Building through the lines takes patience and time. From an NFL draft perspective, it's often a slow build and drafting OL is not sexy.
I remember the Ragnow pick. People thought it was a good pick, but that alone can't change a team's trajectory. However, continuing to build the lines through the draft and making strategic additions through free agency to build up the lines is what makes a huge difference.
Not much more demoralizing than lining up and putting a hat on a hat and enforcing your will on the opposing line. Michigan has done this over the last three years. The lions over the last two.
January 22nd, 2024 at 12:26 PM ^
I was listening to one of Klatt's podcasts and he made a really interesting point. For a while there, CFB was dominated by the teams that had the Heisman QB putting up video game numbers. The Justin Fields, Joe Burrow, DeShaun Watson, Jalen Hurts, Baker Mayfield, etc. of the world. But the last 3 years the meta game has shifted. Carson Beck wasn't in that stratosphere. Neither was JJ (though maybe he could have been in a more pass-heavy scheme). Meanwhile the teams with gaudy QBs (LSU, Bama, UW, Texas) came close but never got past Georgia in 21 or 22, or Michigan in 2023.
But Klatt's point was that the common thread has changed to DL. The best QB isn't determining the national champ anymore; the best DL is. UGA had the best DL in the country the 2 years they won, and Michigan did this year. I think it's a compelling argument, and if the NFL is following suit, it would explain part of what is happening for the Lions.
January 22nd, 2024 at 12:42 PM ^
It starts at the top: Sheila Ford Hamp.
January 23rd, 2024 at 10:55 AM ^
Agree on the line play, but the OSU offense hasn't exactly struggled against good defenses. CJ Stroud was drafted 2nd mainly on his performance against GA, and the offense played well enough to win 2 of the Michigan games. And they really haven't had issues with any other team that you would consider a good defense - PSU or Iowa.
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:09 AM ^
Shield Ford Hamp hired GM Brad Holmes, who in turn hired Dan Campbell.
Holmes has been excellent at drafting, roster management, and head coach selection.
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:12 AM ^
Yep. Holmes would be my answer as well.
January 22nd, 2024 at 6:25 AM ^
Campbell was actually hired before Holmes. Which I thought was a terrible decision at the time but what the hell do I know?
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:56 AM ^
I remember how ridiculed that choice was at the time (not by you; I mean widely).
January 22nd, 2024 at 7:57 AM ^
This.
The unity from the front office, down to the players is something I haven't seen before for the Lions. Now they have a direction, have executed that direction and are adding complimentary pieces to their core.
The scary thing is that they will be able to keep most of this core in tact, with an additional year of development, next year. Replacing Ben Johnson is going to be tough, if he goes, but the players will be there.
Forward down the Field!
January 22nd, 2024 at 7:58 AM ^
I looked at the draft open thread a couple of weeks ago, mostly to check to see how embarrassing my take was after the Lions drafted Gibbs in the first round. It’s not that I didn’t like Gibbs, it was the upper-1st RB pick I didn’t like.
My take could have been worse, but it wasn’t great. I’m still not a huge fan of the idea of an RB in the first round, but Brad Holmes knows a lot more about football than I do, and he proved it with this past draft that he absolutely crushed.
And people were already high on the Lions before. Even the first year, when they were terrible, I was skeptical of the Campbell hire and skeptical of the franchise, so I wasn’t going to drink any koolaid… but the *way* the team played was really noticeable. They never gave up. There was character and guts.
Holmes. A good HC. A good OC. The right players.
This is such a great football year.
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:49 AM ^
The good to great franchises are very good at diagnosing and drafting talent from the middle of the first round to the very end. The terrible ones typically have top ten draft picks and occasionally hit on those but then flub the rest of the draft picks in those years.
I always believed Gibbs was a better draft pick than Robinson for Atlanta, and if used correctly could be a major weapon for an offense. I thought the Lions were right to draft him where they did and Gibbs has shown why all season long. That Detroit got 3 starters with their top three picks in last years draft has to be on the GM (and coach to some extent). That’s something I haven’t seen Detroit be able to do. They typically have made a decent first pick and then screwed up the rest of their draft. Can’t build a team with basically only one good draft pick per year.
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:57 AM ^
See, for example, previous Lions draft years. Where they do things like pick Teez Tabor in the second round over I dunno, Jourdan Lewis.
January 22nd, 2024 at 9:58 AM ^
I always believed Gibbs was a better draft pick than Robinson for Atlanta, and if used correctly could be a major weapon for an offense.
Both Gibbs and Robinson were actually really solid first round picks at the RB position. While Gibbs had more TDs, Robinson had more yards from scrimmage. I don't think any Falcons fans are regretting the Robinson pick - they just need to do something at the QB position now and shore up their pass protection.
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:04 AM ^
Brad Holmes knows what he is doing. Campbell and the coaching staff know how to get the most out of the guys when they get here. Simple as that. We have never had a GM in Detroit hit on this many picks. Look at last night. Melifonwu all over the field making plays. Barnes who we all almost gave up on, seals the game with an athletic pick.
We are on the cusp of greatness. It feels different. It feels right. Finally Detroit can hold it's head up proud. We have a team and we are TWO wins away from winning the SUPER BOWL!
Feels like we have subs and it's crazy. FDTF!
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:39 AM ^
Campbell was hired before Holmes. Sheila went to Speilman and others who in turn hired Campbell and Holmes.
January 22nd, 2024 at 9:00 AM ^
He clearly has been excellent, but I think the main thing is choosing what to be excellent at. These teams, M and the Lions, have been choosing to focus on the lines first and build from there. No matter how much it works, some coaches & GM's just cannot resist the flashy bling. Having the best lines is just not flashy. Seems like the Raiders in the Al Davis years always took some receiver who was always the fastest guy on the field, and never learned that he was useless if his QB was under a pile of D linemen.
January 22nd, 2024 at 9:40 AM ^
That would be my list of what changed also:
1. Sheila Ford Hamp took over and actually knew what she was doing when she hired...
2. Brad Holmes. Who knows how to identify talent and is a wizzard at drafting...
3. Talent like Hutch, Gibbs, Branch etc. These guys are "winners" and know how to build winning culture in the locker room.
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:41 AM ^
Nice condense version of what I just posted....
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:41 AM ^
This is exactly it. Goes to show how much good leadership really matters (this goes for any organization - sports, corporate, government, healthcare, education, etc).
For the the Lions this leadership goes beyond Ford Hamp, Holmes, and Dan Campbell too. They've filled their ranks with really good leaders at all levels. Chris Spielman was hired as a special assistant to Ford Hamp and he's provided significant input on this roster. Mike Disner, the COO, is considered a potential future GM. Ben Johnson is one of the best OC's in the game, and will likely be a head coach next year. Aaron Glenn, working with less talent than the offense, has built a respectable defense and is being interviewed for head coaching positions
Just an incredible turnaround for an organization that has been one of the worst in all of sports for decades.
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:20 AM ^
Sheila is not a weirdo like the rest of the Fords . Watch her in interviews . To me it’s all her that started this by not being a silver spoon dumbfuck like her predecessors 🤷♂️
January 22nd, 2024 at 7:10 AM ^
If you believe the rumors, some of those dumbfucks were prone to bursts of micromanagement (in a bad way).
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:20 AM ^
It's this.
Sheila is doing what the best leaders do, stay out of the way.
January 22nd, 2024 at 7:26 AM ^
It’s nice when ownership focuses on winning over the socializing benefits of owning a professional sports team.
Like the OP, I stopped caring years ago, except for the occasional “cool, they beat Green Bay / Chicago.
January 22nd, 2024 at 11:58 AM ^
I put more credence in this than anything else in this thread. I grew up a Lions fan in the 60s and 70s and gave up on them in the early 80s. (Also, moved to Chicago and became a Bears fan.) WCF was an utter turd who's last great hire was the cherry on the turd: Matt Millen. I can disappointedly say that the Halas/McCaskey family have taken the baton from WCF and run the Bears into mediocrity... in their good years.
I don't know anything about Shiela, which is why I was keen on reading this thread. She's clearly a breath of fresh air after her dad and brother.
Reminds me of a great song with one repeated verse: "Women of the world, take over, cause if you don't the world's gonna come to an end and it won't take long". - Jim O'Rourke
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:23 AM ^
Holmes and Campbell. Excellent draft selections only a handful of bad roster moves. That’s the difference a competent front office. Brad Holmes should be GM of the year.
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:34 AM ^
There is a Sheila in charge! Shout out to all the Australians!
January 22nd, 2024 at 6:34 AM ^
Ups. Not everyone will get this.
January 22nd, 2024 at 9:59 AM ^
paging MeanJoe?
January 22nd, 2024 at 4:59 AM ^
Sheila Hamp, Chris Spielman, Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ben Johnson, Aaron Glenn, Goff, Hutchinson and GRIT.
Hamp put together the right executive team, including Spielman and they got the vision right of what type of GM and Head Coach they wanted.
Holmes and Campbell are studs.
Johnson is a great offensive mind, very creative, and excels at attacking defenses.
Glenn has been good enough with what we have on that side of the ball. The last draft was used mostly on the offensive side of the ball. We'll probably see more resources invested in D next year.
Goff and Hutch are great leaders for their respective units.
Edit: After reading others' comments, I felt remiss not adding the OL and DL to the list.
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:05 AM ^
I think Mike Disner deserves to mentioned as well. Him and Spielman were the football hires that identified and made the Campbell and Holmes hires.
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:26 AM ^
Yeah, he took a pill in Ibiza for the team
January 22nd, 2024 at 8:27 AM ^
Yep, it was win Chris Spielman entered the building. That was the turning point.
January 22nd, 2024 at 5:46 AM ^
as mentioned, the folks at the top deserve credit, but not just for X's and O's, but for the jimmie's and joe's. if you watch the player interviews, they say things i have never heard lions say in my years, dating back to the 60's. and the easiest summary is this: the players sound as cohesive to each other as our amazing michigan wolverines.
so the difference is talent, sure, but it's also team character that mirrors our U of M National Champions. i'm sure there's been some of that over the years, off and on, but never like it is now.
January 22nd, 2024 at 5:54 AM ^
Holmes has added a lot of talent to the roster, and Campbell has made the most of that talent. In particular, providing a solid-to-very-good OL and some talented backs has enabled the Lions to get a great deal more out of Goff than I thought was possible.
In similar fashion, the Lions have added a bunch of solid-to-good DL (led by Hutchinson, while not as rampant as his rookie year, is still playing at a high level) and leveraged that to improve the defense.
They've got a tall order coming up next - beating SF in Santa Clara won't be easy - but they earned the chance to punch their ticket for the Super Bowl.
And *that's* not something I think a lot of people thought they'd be saying about the Lions anytime soon.
January 22nd, 2024 at 10:25 AM ^
A chip and a chair. It's all you can ask for.
January 22nd, 2024 at 6:07 AM ^
A few people have mentioned Sheila Ford Hamp, and I agree. But I'll take it back one step further, and give a shout out to Martha Firestone Ford. When she took over after Bill Ford died in 2014, nobody thought that she'd be much of an improvement. But she showed she was different than her late husband when she fired president Tom Lewand and GM Martin Mathew after a 1-7 start in 2015. Unfortunately, she hired Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia, who still had the shine of being part of the Patriot's dynasty (but not the skill.) But at least she showed the guts to cut someone loose, as opposed to Bill Ford, who was famous for his loyalty to mediocrities (Russ Thomas) and outright failures (Matt Millen).
And then Martha had the sense to step aside and promote Sheila, who showed she was her mother's daughter by sacking Quintricia, hiring a knowledgeable advisor like Chris Spielman, hiring Holmes and Campbell, and giving them enough time to succeed. And now they're in the NFL's final four.
So maybe what the Detroit Lions needed was less Ford, and more Firestone.