How does Caris' decision affect Jaylen Brown and Kenny Williams?
Any chance we're still not done and somebody will walk on this year?
April 21st, 2015 at 11:44 AM ^
I think UM can make room for 1 of 2. Brown appears to be slipping away, but we are in strong position for Williams.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:51 AM ^
Mathematically, that's going to require one of two things: (1) somebody is going to have to leave or (2) Hatch is going to have to go on a medical scholarship.
At this point it's hard to see who would be up for leaving. We have a huge logjamb at the wing position, but all of those guys (except Irvin) were made by Beilein. In my mind, the only way we fit another player is by putting Hatch on a medical -- which is obviously controversial.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
Putting him on medical leaves him on full scholarship right? I'm not sure anyone ever expects Hatch to contribute meaningful minutes. Glad to have him here, but I think putting him on medical is sensible
April 21st, 2015 at 12:04 PM ^
I feel like putting Hatch on a medical scholarship would hurt us in the media after all of the stories on Hatch and Beilein last year even if he's still given a free ride scholarship.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:13 PM ^
He's still part of the team and getting a full scholarship.
I think folks are confusing a medical hardship for medical reasons with Saban Hospital medical redshirt so I get my scholarship and you GTFO.
Hatch should go on a medical hardship. He can't do what he wants on the court and he can take a medical hardship and still be part of practice EVERY day. He still gets to sit on the bench during games. He's still a valuable member of the team. He still goes on the road...everything.
The only thing that changes is that he cannot play in a game. Everything else can stay the same.
I see no issue with this. It's a non-story.
Now if Beilein put him on a medical and he left and went and played for Indiana State...THAT would be a problem.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:18 PM ^
Is it a permenant status or can he go back to playing at some point?
April 21st, 2015 at 12:22 PM ^
Once you go on a medical hardship, you can no longer play in games.
But like I said, he can still play in everything that's not a game. So that's summer ball, closed scrimmages, pick up, he can practice, he can do everything else just the same.
Seeing as he's already played and scored in games, it's not THAT big of a deal. He'd still get the biggest ovation in Crisler history on senior night. Still gets to walk out there with his jersey and Coach B by his side bringing tears to all of our eyes.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:25 PM ^
I think that is much more controversial than simply going to a medical after all the goodwill Michigan and Beilein generated by Belein maintaining his scholarship.
How bad would that look if it was perceived Beilein pulled the rug out from under him?
Though this assumes a medical is an option. Given that he had already been cleared to play, and did see game time, it might take a change in his health for a medical to be granted.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:30 PM ^
I believe the rules of eligibility make allowances for a player to potentially be out more than one season (thereby extended the five-year period by however many seasons), but the length of time is dictated by the documentation provided to get the waiver in the first place. For example, if it is for circumstances beyond the player's control:
Situations clearly supported by contemporaneous medical documentation, which states that a student-athlete is unable to participate in intercollegiate competition as a result of incapacitating physical or mental circumstances;
If I am not mistaken, once you're cleared, the clock starts again and then you have the decision to play someone or not all over again. Of course, if you're never cleared or cannot go back to playing form, you still get the benefits of the scholarship but are effectively shut down if that's the case. Someone more familiar with the rules can correct me here or provide more specific guidance.
inordinate amount of people who are willing to spend Hatch's money on a scholarship, since that isn't really the point. I'm going to piggyback off of LSA's post, in that it makes sense, once Hatch was cleared to play last year, it would take a significant medical change to result in a declaration of medical hardship. It seems to me, that would be hard to prove, after competing with the team all year, and earning playing time. Even if there is some medical evidence that would be brought to the table, is that what Michigan wants to do? UM was lauded for sticking to it's word when it brought Hatch in, no matter the circumstances. Now, when they need an open scholarship, they're willing to go back to the medical board and make the case that last year was just an illusion, or that Hatch can't be as good as they hoped. That just sounds way too duplicitous (or, since I rip on bobby petrino every chance I get, it sounds too petrinoish). I don't think the optics are worth the trouble. I can't prove that karma ever won a basketball game (much less a championship), but with the injuries that the team suffered through this year, the way that Coach Beilein has always treated his players (from stars to walk-ons to managers), to the way Hatch has postively impacted the current team, I believe messing with that karma to pull in a shiny new toy is not the way to go. We were all happy with the outlook of the team about a month ago. Now, if another option presents itself, then, by all means, go get Williams (or less likely Brown). I'm not going to speculate on what those other options might be.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:22 PM ^
Hatch isn't being shoved out the door because he's not good enough at basketball. He'd be freeing up a scholarship for his team because, after literally falling out of the sky, he is physically incapable of being a Division 1 basketball player.
Again, this assumes his health will never allow him to be a full-time player, but last year (when Dakich and Lonergan saw significant minutes but he was glued to the bench) gives us a pretty good indication that it might be the case.
I'm sure Austin would rather sit next to Beilein in a suit if it turns out he'll never be able to play for real and if it means helping the team get better. Not to mention, there is always the possibility of a senior-night waiver to get him one last hurrah at Crisler.
If this kid remains a part of the program for three more years and gets his degree and somebody has a problem with that, after everything the kid went throughy, that person is just an asshole.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:21 PM ^
The media can say whatever they want in the brief gaps between Jaylen Brown dunks during the games.
But he got to play a year on the team, and he clearly had a pretty traumatic backstory and might not be able to contribute to a basketball team on the court. But he'd still get a chance to contribute in practice, travel with the team, in general still being involved and getting an education in the process. When guys get medical'd in football in the SEC, it's usually "you aren't good enough anymore, and we are going to replace you." Sure, to some it's the same, but with one you are still keeping the kid involved and providing for him; the other is because the coach wants to replace you with someone better because you didn't live up to his expectations and he isn't allowed to fire you.
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April 21st, 2015 at 12:19 PM ^
Unfortunately I don't think enough people truly know what that means. It doens't mean we're kicking the kid to the curb or anything.
I guess you have to have either played college athletics or you have to be around it close enough to realize that this isn't a bad thing. It is when you use it like Saban or Meyer.
The ONLY difference would be that he wouldn't be able to play in games. That's it. He could practice, hell, he could even help gameplan for practice. He would travel, he'd eat with the team, he'd watch film, he'd still be part of the team 100%. He wouldn't have to go sit off in the stands by himself on gameday, he'd be right there on the bench.
He could play in scrimmages with the team, he could be part of midnite madness with the team, he can go on summer trips and play summer ball with the team.
Most importantly, he still gets a free education.
It's not a big deal, it truly is for the betterment of the team, and it doesn't harm the student-athlete or student-athlete experience. He's played D1 college basketball, he's scored. More than 99-100% of this board can say.
Putting him on a medical doesn't take away his experience for the next 3 years.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:43 PM ^
I think that's what people are concerned about. It is a big deal - to him, to the team, to (some) fans. Go Austin Hatch Go!
How do you know that? Have you talked to him? This is a kid who refused to play at some points of his high school career because he didn't feel ready and didn't want to take minutes away from teammates who were ready. My read on him is that he is the ultimate in unselfish teammates and may very well want to take a medical scholarship so that he can focus on his life after basketball and his own health, while still getting some of the benefits of being "on the team" and watching others succeed in his place.
the attention, the love, the support. Kid's been on ESPN and getting tweeted at by Shaq. His teammates root for him and he inspires them, ditto for our fans. I don't think you're human if you don't care about any of that.
I'm not saying he wouldn't be unselfish or would take any offense to Michigan making the move. I'm saying we can't just say "no big deal, he doesn't play anymore" because it IS a big deal.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:05 PM ^
If we take Brown or Williams we are done recruiting 2016 as well, unless there is attrition. I think you can't take Williams unless you are confident he can run the point, because Spike will be gone in 2016 (unless he takes a redshirt this year) and Walton will be gone after the year so you have no heir apparent.
Brown is likely a 1 and done so that may open a spot in 2016 as well.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:52 AM ^
Brown's recruitment is getting weird and silent. I'd guess Beilein is holding out first to hear from Brown and if that doesn't work, they take Williams (provided he doesn't commit elsewhere).
Edit: And by fit one in, I realize that we are currently full. I'm assuming either a spot opening up or Hatch goes to medical.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:48 AM ^
April 21st, 2015 at 11:48 AM ^
April 21st, 2015 at 11:49 AM ^
I see the interest in Williams in part as a hedge against Spike needed to redshirt next year due to surgeries. MAAR is a good ballhandler, but not really a point guard. So they'll need another distributor if Spike can't go.
So assuming Brown goes elsewhere, they will take Williams. Then in case Walton goes steps it up and goes pro after this year, we'd have RS Sr Spike and Williams as a 1/2, then I assume they'll bring in a PG in the class with the two bigs already committed.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:52 AM ^
Redshirting still takes up a scholarship.
The most obvious (only?) options are to medical Hatch or "encourage" someone to transfer for more PT.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
Yeah, but I was just talking about need/potential available PT, not scholarships. A combo guard is not an obvious priority if you have a healthy Walton and a healthy Spike. They could man the point and bring in a PG in the 2016 class to back up Walton.
But with Spike potentially out and Walton potentially (though unlikely) a canditate to leave after this year, it makes sense to pursue a guy like Williams regardless of LaVert's decision.
So basically, to the OP's question I was saying that Caris' decision would not affect Williams, since a scholarship is available (by medical-ing Hatch as you say).
April 21st, 2015 at 11:49 AM ^
Must remove a scholarship playerfor any new commits per Nick Baumgardner.
Michigan is full. If it takes another recruit, someone has to lose a scholly or leave. https://t.co/GxoQd1NCX6
— Nick Baumgardner (@nickbaumgardner) April 21, 2015April 21st, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
I believe we should remove Hatch...If Bielfeldt, a solid contributor, is asked to come off scholarship, I don't see why we don't medical Hatch. I love his story, but he is going to be a human victory cigar at most. Use the scholarship to help the team.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:49 AM ^
Gut has always been Brown is not coming... hope I'm wrong. Think Williams does show up. Either would be a nice addition to varying degrees.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:49 AM ^
I have no insider information whatsover but am confident we would make room for one of them if either of them wanted to come.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:50 AM ^
that it appears the boat is full, but I trust Beilein has a plan, a very good plan.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
One has to believe Beilein had some pretty good knowledge that Caris was coming back. And since he's been actively courting Williams and Brown, there has to be a way he will make room for one more player. We may find out soon enough if either Brown (not too likely) or Williams commits. If both players go elsewhere, I'd guess Michigan stays pat where they are scholarship-wise. But who knows?!
April 21st, 2015 at 11:51 AM ^
It doesn't matter. Caris is more important than an unproven freshman.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:57 AM ^
Wisconsin fans were saying the same thing about their team before they ran into Duke and Grayson Allen, Tyrus Jones, Jahil Okkafor, and Justise Winslow.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
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April 21st, 2015 at 11:58 AM ^
It's not an either/or question. If we could possibly have both that would be very, very nice. Like, winning the Big Ten and making a deep tourney run nice.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:55 AM ^
I think Williams was a backup recruitment if Caris left. I don't see him coming here if he has plans to play as a freshman. If Caris left Williams would have been battling MAAR for starting SG so it made sense. People want to say he "can be converted" to a PG but that is not as easy as people make it sound. Breaking down defenses, finding the right guy to pass to, being a distributor - that is a very different job than a guy who is a SG or "combo guard".
Unless Spike is redshirting (with 2 hips, 4-5 mo recovery each) I dont see the room for Williams with Caris return.
Walton is playing 30 min a night. Caris is playing 35. And Spike is going to play 15ish as a floor IMO (with some 2 guard sets of Walton + Spike). That barely gives any time for MAAR to play not to mention Williams. Unless again - he wanted to redshirt or something and be reading for SG role a year after. Which most top 100 players (esp non centers) are not going to do. Guys want to play - with Caris up in the air it made sense to explore coming here and getting early playing time. Now a domino has fallen and the matrix changed for him.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
there's no room for Brown or Williams. A redshirt still counts as a scholarship. Now if Spike has to sit the year and pays his own way (ie - goess off scholarship for one year), then there is room for one more player.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:17 PM ^
it would play out like the scene in rudy with Spike walking into Beilein's office and laying down his jersey.
"Coach - for Brown or Williams"
I realized this is scholarship vs. playingtime, but thats how I envision it.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:37 PM ^
Moot point now, but Williams would have been a heavy fav to start over MAAR. I know we all love the kid (me included) for his heroic effort against MSU but we're talking about an older 3-star recruit who shot under 30% from 3, was low efficiency overall and had an a/to ratio under 1. He was a great relief when Michigan needed somebody anybody to run the offense, but with our three primary ball handlers healthy and Irvin's game rounding into form, MAAR's going to have to change his game significantly to earn playing time. At this stage I'd be surprised if he played over 10 mpg next year, but if he ramps up into that defensive stopper role we all want him to embrace, that could change.
Michigan would still love to have Williams because next year's vets will be gone soon. The issue is that Williams probably doesn't want to spend the year backing them up, as you said.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:54 AM ^
Look for Brown and the Wildcats to be in the pre-season top 10.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:55 AM ^
I hope they dont medical Hatch would hate to see that. But I do think Williams is still coming.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:19 PM ^
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April 21st, 2015 at 11:56 AM ^
Nobody knows what Brown is thinking, so M's slim chances are either gone (if he wanted Caris' minutes and shots) or elevated (if he wants to be on a title contending team). Unless you talk to Brown you don't know.
I would guess Williams is headed elsewhere due to the logjam of veteran guards.
April 21st, 2015 at 11:56 AM ^
You can get somebody to walk on for a year. It's been done before at other places like Louisville.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
True. Like Mr. Calves might do.
April 21st, 2015 at 12:29 PM ^
It's not just a one year problem.