Time to re-evaluate JB as Bball coach?
I was a big supporter of JB when he was hired. I thought, here is a guy who gets more out of less, and if he could do that at WV then certainly he can recruit even better at Michigan right?
Here are my main complaints about our coach.
1) I don't like his style on offense. We have zero inside play. There seems to be little in the offense for low post play, very little in way of attacking the basket. It is a series of handoffs and passes around the 3 point line until someone jacks one up. If people complained that RR's style was soft for the big ten, then good god I don't know how this isn't. Now, some may say that it is because of the players on the team that we have zero penetration and zero post play...but who is to blame for that? Which brings me to my next point.
2) He appears to be a terrible recruiter. I'm sorry, but I'm just going to say it. You can say all you want about Michigan's facilities not being up to snuff, but at least he can promise kids the facilities are coming, Amaker couldn't do that and he landed way more talent. Say all you want about Amakers talents as a coach, he at least recruited which I bring up to prove only that you can recruit better at Michigan than JB has done. We have a team full of nice players, no elite players. You can't reach an elite level with all role players. The only two players he had that were even close to elite, Manny and Sims, weren't his players, and no I don't count Manny as his player. We have an absolute lack of difference makers, but not just that, even great athletes. I don't want to disparage guys like Zack and Stu, they work hard and seem to be good kids, but they just aren't great athletes. You can have a guy or two like them, but when they are two of your best players, you are in trouble. And before you spill love on the players on the roster, take your Michigan goggles off. Darius Morris, for all of his improvements which have been significant, is only great compared to his teammates. Being the best player on a bad team doesn't make you an elite player. Similarly, making vast improvement doesn't make you an elite player. People are so pumped about this recruiting class, but it features a 6'1" SG and our class is ranked lower than basketball powerhouse....Alabama. You are going to tell me Michigan can't pull in one, ONE freaking top 25 class in all of JB's time? I realize Michigan is not the basketball power it once was, but not one top 25 class in all his time?
I am frustrated. I appreciate the kids on the team and the effort they give, it isn't their fault. But our recruiting has been an incredible disappointment. Where are the NBA level recruits? Even just one every two years, I'm not even asking for 4 or 5 every year like Duke or UNC. Just one every few years is a reasonable expectation. I'm starting to think JB may not be the man for the job.
January 19th, 2011 at 7:49 PM ^
recent success is but one of many factors in recruiting. If recent success were the only factor, than Michigan's football team would struggle to recruit. The truth is that Amaker recruited much better than JB. When JB was hired the tale on him was "great coach, great teacher, below average recruiter". I tend to agree with that assessment.
January 19th, 2011 at 9:28 PM ^
Please stop saying Amaker recruited better than Beilein. It isn't true.
January 20th, 2011 at 3:21 PM ^
Amaker Recruiting
2002: Daniel Horton ****, Chris Hunter ***, Lester Abrahm ***, Graham Brown
2003: Dion Harris ****, Brent Petway ****, Courtney Sims ****
2004: Ron Coleman ***
2005 (LOL): Kendric Price ***, Jevohn Shepard ***, Jerret Smith ***
2006: DeShawn Sims ****, K'Len Morris ***, Ekpe Udoh ***, Anthony Wright ***, Reed Baker
2007*: Manny Harris ****, Kelvin Grady ***, Martell Web **
Beilein Recruiting
2008: Ben Cronin ***, Stu Douglass ***, Zack Novak ***
2009: Darius Morris ****, Matt Vogrich ***, Blake McLimans ***, Jordan Morgan ***
2010: Evan Smotrycz ****, Tim Hardaway Jr. ***, Jon Horford ***
2011: Carlton Brudridge ****, Trey Burke ***
Given Amaker netted three 4* guys in one year, all of which failed miserably to live up to 4 star status, I'll take JB. JB also has not had the lol-tastic recruiting class the likes of Amaker's '05 class. None of those guys ever became a solid contributer. Not one; a completely wasted class. And without Horton and D Harris around him, Ron Coleman (the lone senior when JB took over) turned out to be a disappointment. So that's practically two straight wasted recruiting classes by Amaker. Yeah, he had three pretty solid years, but with two non-existant ones and an average one, you could hardly say Amaker was a better recruiter than Beilein.
January 19th, 2011 at 5:16 PM ^
And the state has historically produced it's fair share of outstanding talent, but I understand that this has slipped recently.
This entire thread gives me a headache, but I'm really tired of people's ignorance about in-state recruiting. It's not just that Michigan has to compete with MSU for the dwindling number of top players that the state of Michigan produces, but I don't think people realize how few top players come out of the Detroit area--Michigan's natural recruiting base.
For example, the Rivals top 150 for 2012 has five players from the state of Michigan (none of whom are in the top 50, by the way), only one of whom is from the Detroit area: Sherron Dorsey-Walker (#74).
The top 150 for 2011 lists four players from the state and only two from the Detroit area: Amir Williams (#73) and Carlton Brundidge (#104).
So for those saying that Beilein has to start landing higher-ranked players, please realize that neither the Detroit area nor the entire state is producing very many of these players, so he needs to go out of state to do this, and that's no simple task given the parity that exists in college basketball these days.
January 19th, 2011 at 5:39 PM ^
I noticed you skipped over the 2010 class where the state of Michigan had three in the top 50, and two from Detroit.
Listen, I'm not disagreeing with you. The state of Michigan's talent pool has dropped significantly and it has made things much more difficult in recruiting. But did you realize that of the Rivals top 25 from last year, exactly 6 went to an instate school? Moving away to go to school doesn't seem to be much of a problem for the top players, probably due to all the traveling that AAU and top high schools do these days.
My only point in all of this is Beilein has not yet recruited talent to be a consistent top 25 program. I understand there are reasons for that. But acting like he's already proven that he's able to recruit just simply doesn't match the facts. I hope it improves, and I think it probably will, because with some better talent, I think Beilein is the guy that restores Michigan to NCAA tournament mainstay with occasional elite level teams.
January 19th, 2011 at 7:45 PM ^
I wasn't cherry-picking--I just happened to look at those two years. But if you take an even larger sample, rankings for the five classes from 2008 to 2012, my point is even stronger:
- 2008: 2 from state of Michigan; none from Detroit area; highest ranked player is #90
- 2009: 3 from state of Michigan, all 3 from Detroit area, but highest ranked player is #69
So over the course of five years, there have been only two players in the Rivals top 50 from the Detroit area. That's not much of a recruiting base.
In any case, I don't think we're in disagreement because I never said Beilein has proven to be able to recruit "elite" talent (if people want to define that as top 25 or top 50 talent). But I don't think there's any question that his recruiting has been improving every year. With the addition of Burke and Brundidge next year to a much more experienced team, they'll have a good shot at an NCAA bid. That should help with recruiting, as should the opening of the player development center this fall.
January 19th, 2011 at 6:30 PM ^
Thank you. People completely confuse football and basketball recruiting. In football, you play 22 guys plus special teams, so you need a lot more bodies. Top 100 players means something because there are so many different positions. Basketball, the numbers go way down and top 100 isn't nearly as impressive. Just look at the team recruiting rankings in basketball.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:54 PM ^
This team plays no seniors. They are very young. Morris is only a sophomore.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:13 PM ^
This team plays no seniors. They are very young. Denard is only a sophomore.
Isn't that what you said? Oh well, no time to make sure.
Anyway, it's settled. Bring back a Michigan Man who understands the tradition, like, um, some guy who was an assistant under Fisher!
Cue jmblue in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
January 19th, 2011 at 2:56 PM ^
i don't follow the bball team like i use to since the fab 5, but in year 4 how could dave brandon said that this team is on the right track?
In year 4 they are starting all freshman and soph just about and they have literally zero inside game and are terrible on the boards.
If they aren't sinking three's they are basically fucked in every game ive watched.
I can see why people got excited early on this year for the team, but the level of competition they played was just about as trash as our Non conference football schedule.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:59 PM ^
Syracuse, Utah, UTEP, Kansas... you're right, that's garbage.
January 20th, 2011 at 8:41 AM ^
Exclusive of the Big Ten, where our record and level of competing speaks for itself:
Top teams-absolutely Syracuse and KU--and for purpose of your comment, I'll throw in UTEP and even Clemson
Decent (to good) teams--Utah (they're only 9-10 and rebuilding), Harvard and Oakland.
Bad to horrible teams--meaning free wins--BGU, and here come the embarrassing ones (everyone has a couple, but we have 5) Gardner-Webb, UN-Central, SCS Upstate, Bryant and, of course, Concordia.
So if you throw out the guaranteed wins, we're 5-8.
It's true that some of our best games have been against some of our best competition, but that may speak more to the way those teams approached us.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:25 PM ^
I don't know anything or pay attention, but here's my completely uninformed opinion.
January 19th, 2011 at 4:07 PM ^
lol I can watch the team and see where we are at in year 4, and i don't see how we could make a big jump next year with the players we have.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:57 PM ^
this is far and away the youngest team in the big ten. And in college hoops, you need to have experience, especially in the back court. The consistency will come in time
January 19th, 2011 at 3:05 PM ^
This is just not true. Sure experience helps, but it is not necessary. There are few sports where freshman can contribute as significantly, and as soon, as they do in college basketball.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:08 PM ^
Significantly contributing freshmen are the exception, not the norm, especially in conferences like the B1G.
Find me another team in the Big 10 who STARTS 3 Freshmen. Go ahead. I'm waiting.
January 19th, 2011 at 6:32 PM ^
Ok but you are missing the point. Why are we staring so many freshman? Because of poor recruiting in the years before him. Youth can't be the excuse in his fourth year when he is responsible for who is on the roster.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:14 PM ^
Experience isn't necessary when your team is a group of players who will declare for the NBA draft after one season.
Duly noted.
January 19th, 2011 at 7:28 PM ^
Michigan is ranked 337 in experience level (Kenpom.com). There are 347 D-1 teams.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:57 PM ^
I feel like you haven't watched Hardaway Jr. play yet, nor even considered the fact that he is a true freshman... as are pretty much all of them.
They just took Kansas to overtime. Things like that aren't flukes. The talent is there, it's just still pretty raw.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:26 PM ^
but since you brought up Hardaway, Jr ... last night he scored th first 5 points for U of M - then added 1 more layup and missed countless othe shots in the 1st half. He also dribbled into a least 4 turnovers and played zero defense.
The kid has got tons of talent ... but where is the coaching ??? Miss after miss and dribbling into multiple turnovers should get your ass on the bench for a stern chat.
I am concerned that JB's "free flow" style lacks team discipline.
Go Blue !
January 19th, 2011 at 3:41 PM ^
"and missed countless othe shots in the 1st half. He also dribbled into a least 4 turnovers [ed: it was actually 2... I checked the box score] and played zero defense."
You officially have my vote for Drama Queen.
January 20th, 2011 at 10:46 AM ^
I too checked the boxscore. Hardaway hit his first 2 shots (one a 3pt.) then proceeded to go 1 for 12 (including 0-5 from 3pt. land) the rest of the game ... and the one shot he made was a layup.
The point here isn't the exact number be it shooting or turnovers (are you an accountant ?) .. its that he was adding nothing to the team's effort. A little "pine-time" can improve a player's discipline. I simply believe he needs to be coached ... not just in practice, but in games too. As I stated, I think he has great potential (but others on the board even argue with that).
Go Blue !
January 19th, 2011 at 4:31 PM ^
They just took Kansas to overtime. Things like that aren't flukes. The talent is there, it's just still pretty raw.
I get what you're saying, but over the last few seasons how many times has Michigan gone completely cold in games or completely fell apart on defense and lost as a result? Yes, performances like against Kansas or OSU show the potential of the team, but considering Michigan can't seem to consistently perform at that level, I don't think calling it a fluke is all that far off.
January 19th, 2011 at 5:11 PM ^
I get what you're saying, but over the last few seasons how many times has Michigan gone completely cold in games or completely fell apart on defense and lost as a result?
About as many times as they haven't gone cold and haven't fallen apart defensively.
Duke, UConn, Clemson '09, UCLA, OSU '10. Plus a smattering of other B10 wins that are moderately impressive.
January 19th, 2011 at 6:35 PM ^
Have you seen him play? He's an average player who has potential but is not a lock to be a good one. He has some of the worst shot selection of any player i've ever seen at Michigan. He takes shots with 25 seconds left on the clock that you could get with 1 second left. He can't dribble with his left hand hardly at all. If he takes three or 4 hard dribbles with his left, he loses or almost loses it. Again, he's an ok player, but he only looks good compared to other Michigan players.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:57 PM ^
although I do think this team has some potential for next year, I don't think any program can win championships with a base offense that always plays 20 feet from the rim. We need some quality post players big time. One of the things that consistantly kill this team is the lack of a "go to" guy when they absolutely have to have a bucket. If JB can't bring one in, it's time to move him out!
January 19th, 2011 at 3:22 PM ^
Have you watched Darius as this season has progressed? He has recently been "that guy" driving to the rim and making his own offense (See: the one that got us into OT with Kansas).
January 19th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^
If there isn't steady improvement over the next 3 seasons (culminating with this huge class of Freshman at least competing for a Big Ten championship in their senior year) then we can talk about it. The team will be significantly better next year with Seniors in Stu and Zack, Juniors Darius & Vogrich (who should continue to get better and at some point start raining 3's on teams) and Sophmore T-III, with freshman Trey Burke lighting it up off the bench. Morgan will approach Hambone levels of rebounding and grit and the team will be good. Add in Glen Robinson Junior in 2012-13 and a couple other all-star recruits and we're talking serious business.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^
Jesus Christ dude, we're playing mostly freshman and sophomores. This team will be fine.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:17 PM ^
Totally agree. The coach deserves another year to see what his players can do when they are upperclassmen, especially with such a unique offensive style that he brings from West Virginia. We definitely need to play better defense, though, so I hope he addresses that soon.
...
Wait, what sport are we talking about?
/ that same tired gag I keep using
January 19th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
lol.. we said the same thing about the football team, and now we have a new coach..
January 19th, 2011 at 4:09 PM ^
Do you expect growth spurts for those freshman and sophomores?
January 19th, 2011 at 5:34 PM ^
In muscle mass, yes. And that will go a long way towards helping this team.
January 19th, 2011 at 6:36 PM ^
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Again, why is the team so young? A coach in his fourth year is on the hook for that, sorry.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^
You are an idiot. I wish I could find the "we are going to the dance post" put up in December where Jamiemac and I scoffed at the enthusiasm and then I told everyone as soon as we hit a rough stretch in the Big Ten all the roaches would come back out and the whole "I like watching this team they play more as a team" "Morris is awesome" "This team is young just wait" posts would be a thing of the past.
I hate people who do zero research and spew shit out their mouths. If you don't like the style of play that is fine just say that and end your call. People are spoiled brats who want every coach fired after every loss. Please go away.
Coach Beilein's honest evaluation is next year when he has actual players of talent that have actual experience.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:21 PM ^
This. These people have nothing to say when a team picked to finish last in the B1G takes the #1 and #2 teams in the nation down to the wire. They pay no attention at all, know nothing about recruiting (or what JB has actually recruited), know less than nothing about basketball, and yet somehow became EXPERTS in spite of all this.
The other DI coaches have ranked JB as the best coach at getting the most out of his talent. This is not some crazy coincidence. If he can't get something going next year with this roster, by all means let's criticize him: he will have underperformed 2 out of 3 years. But anyone who deluded themselves about this team is seeing reality now - they have a great young core and a phenomenal coach who was hamstrung by an extremely shitty program and facilities for his first two years recruiting. They are not, unfortunately, very good yet. But of course, despite all his past success at literally every stop AND HERE, JB SUX BECUZ HE CAN'T WIN WITH FROSH LOLL.
January 19th, 2011 at 6:39 PM ^
Explain to me why he gets a pass for a lack of talent and having youth when he is in his 4th year? I don't get that at all. He is entirely responsible for how young the team is. I wasn't expecting more out of this particular team, I was expecting more out of JB to what this team would be composed of this year. And don't make blanket statements about other peoples level of knowledge. You have no idea who I am, what I do, and what my basketball experience level is. If you want to disagree with my assesment fine, but that doesn't mean I know nothing about basketball.
January 19th, 2011 at 7:59 PM ^
let me beat it into your head. our best player left early to go to the NBA. that was JBs first class he tried to salvage. his next class was not good because his best recruit never saw the court due to injury. his next two classes have been solid. and next year's will be solid too.
so you want to fire him because his first real recruiting class was not good? really really shortsighted and dumb. JB has a solid young base of talent right now and the results will start to show next year on a consistent basis. bank on it.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:51 PM ^
Was this the thread from December you were referring to: Posing question for hoops...? Pretty good prediction you made there.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^
Bottom line, at a school like Michigan, the name alone should bring one or two above average prospects. Just like our issues with Kicker, there is no excuse in my mind to allow for the lack of talent in either area.
I think the issue, more than recruiting, is talent evaluation. So many mid-major teams in BB find 2 and 3 star guys and they end up being guys that take a team two or three rounds into the NCAA's every few years. The fact we can't find that guy every once in a while, tells me he can't see the future when looking at these kids.
Game coaching is also lacking, in my opinion, but it's the ability to spot the diamonds in the rough that is really lacking here. Just watch the first two rounds of the tourny and tell me that half of the leading scorers wouldn't have walked to AA to be a part of this program, if only asked.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:27 PM ^
While I hate the whole "ITS MICHIGAN" argument for football, it is even less relevant for basketball. The last time Michigan was nationally relevant was when they placed under NCAA sanctions. Recruits these days didn't grow up watching the Fab Five, they mostly grew up when Michigan was completely dysfunctional as a program.
Also asking coaches to spot diamonds in the rough is a little silly to me. If every coach could spot them, then they aren't diamonds in the rough, they're probably top recruits. You want sleepers? How about Novak who is the vocal leader of the time, and no other offers out of HS? Or JMo, our most solid post player, also barely recruited.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:59 PM ^
I mean we have two freshman big men with potential. If they can work on their footwork and handles, plus add some pounds this offseason, then our shooters will get more space and we'll be fine.
I haven't been thrilled with the progress the last few years, but I think we'll get it together with the big men we have. Any time Novak can play small forward or shooting guard, we are showing progress up front.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:00 PM ^
Our two biggest problems:
1) not having a legit low post threat
2) not having an elite shooter who is ALSO an elite ball handler
That makes our offense very patchwork and prone to long droughts. I see improvements coming to #2 (Burke, Brundige, Morris improvement, Hardaway) but where/how are we going to have improvements to #1? Jordan Morgan can develop some, but I don't really see the inside talent on the rest of the roster to get us there.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:27 PM ^
I believe the answer to 1) is the development of our three highly-rated, showing flashes freshmen big men. While many of us remain stuck in Amaker "no player ever improves over 4 years" mode, the reality is that those kids have a ton of talent and at least 1-2 are going to be excellent players.
January 19th, 2011 at 7:29 PM ^
but mcclimans and horford were not highly rated, even by skewed basketball recruiting standards. These were guys with limited offers, same for Morgan.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:01 PM ^
I agree. The talent differential with other Big Ten teams is disgusting. Indiana is a young team too (not as young as Michigan) but they have some very good recruits. We don't - we just have a bunch of kids with the overly mentioned "NBA BLOODLINES" and some highly rated role players. I actually agreed with a lot of what Daniel Horton said, just disagree with the way he did it. I really think once Crisler and the practice facility are done, we need a young black coach that knows the HS coaches in the Michigan and Detroit area. Maybe we can snatch CMUs coach if he does a good enough job the next couple years. With that being said, this year should have no impact on John Beilein's future because this team is so young they are going to lose games they shouldn't. It's if this kind of losing skid continues next season and we don't bounce back, that is when you start to worry.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^
If the BBall team is 11-8 at this time next year... then it will be time to start talking about a new coach.
But that won't happen with 2 Sr Captains, Morris as a Jr, 5 contributing Sophs, and 2 highly ranked recruits as Fr.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:18 PM ^
I am also disappointed with Beilein. I have been a strong supporter of his (nearly along the same lines as the RR-loyalists that I've often criticized here) and it's tough to say that things don't look great. That being said, I don't agree with your analysis...
The offensive style is indeed tough to deal with. We do lack an inside presence, but that is (in part) due to the lack of a dominate inside player. The flip side, of course, is that JB wants everyone to be able to gun from outside.
Your recruiting analysis is where the flaws come out. JB isn't a terrible recruiter. He is a good, but not great recruiter. He is also intensely ethical. Most of the top 20 bball recruits demand money along the trail. It can be "$1000 to read your letter", "$2000 to take an in-home visit", etc. The drips continue throughout the process The money goes to a friend/family member/advisor/coach. Michigan does not play that game and let's these kids know that. This is not a guess on my part. I've been told this by a prominent coach/recruiter.
We have done well, but not well enough in recruiting. Darrius was the #10 PG in the nation. That's a big recruit. We would have had Zeigler...but it's hard to outdo Dad. We would have had some bigs, but injuries and ineligibility ended that. These are indeed excuses (as I've accused the RR fans of throwing out) and, at some point, excuses don't allow a coach to keep his job. If you look at the assistant coaches who left the team prior to the start of the season and their recruiting track record, you might be able to see the writing on the wall. JB is in a tough spot this year. We ran up a record against weak competition; came close against great competition; and are now getting destroyed by all. It's not looking good. I'll keep my fingers crossed, but there is a chance that Brandon isn't done with coaching changes.