Warning: Livonia and Farmington Hills Water

Submitted by uncle leo on

Supermarkets are already filling up fast, water contimation advisory in Livonia and Farm Hills

Boil or buy bottled water.

UMinSF

June 11th, 2017 at 6:45 PM ^

Numbers from the paper come directly from OECD. I don't think there was any political bias involved.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV

As for Brookings, according to their Wiki, they're pretty middle-of-the-road, and seem to be oft-cited by folks from across the spectrum. If they're considered liberal, I'm not aware of it:

Brookings states that its staff "represent diverse points of view" and describes itself as non-partisan,[1][13] and the media sometimes describes Brookings as either "conservative",[14] "centrist"[15] or "liberal."[16] An academic analysis of Congressional records from 1993 to 2002 found that Brookings was referenced by conservative politicians almost as frequently as liberal politicians, earning a score of 53 on a 1–100 scale with 100 representing the most liberal score.[17] The same study found Brookings to be the most frequently cited think tank by the US media and politicians

TrueBlue2003

June 11th, 2017 at 6:10 PM ^

that have universal healthcare have dramatically lower per capita health expenditures, mostly because single payers have higher buying power and they have much better liability laws. It is very possible (if these systems are any model) that we would improve health care efficiency through a single payer system.

And yes, if we taxed for that and provided health care we would be much higher on the list. And don't forget the education that most of these countries provide to more citizens at lower cost/free, which if we provided might put us #1 by a lot. But it's not because of inefficiency, it's because of a MUCH, MUCH higher per capita military expenditure than any of these other countries.  If we provided the same level of benefits as them AND remained the developed world's primary provider of security/stability, it would obviously cost the most.

ATC

June 11th, 2017 at 11:34 PM ^

have dramatic backlogs of patients waiting for treatment which amplifies, compounds and further degradates the patients condition. This is a result of central planning and rationing medicine. TrueBlue2003, please tell about the patients you've treated in Canada. In absolutely no way does single payer improve efficiency.

PopeLando

June 12th, 2017 at 12:37 AM ^

Healthcare industry consultant here. This post is wrong in every way. 1) "All." This is a common talking point, but is not true. Are there some backlogs and waiting lists? Absolutely. But not in all countries and not for all conditions. Patients don't STOP getting triaged at the door... Also, there are backlogs and waiting lists in the US too. 2) Universal healthcare does not mean central planning or rationing. Especially not rationing. 3) Universal healthcare doesn't necessarily mean single payer. Somebody somewhere has sold you a basket of goods. The only thing that might be right is that TrueBlue2003 probably hasn't treated patients in Canada ;)

ATC

June 12th, 2017 at 4:01 AM ^

Of course you'd say it's wrong: 1.You don't treat patients..... 2. Yes, he was referencing universal healthcare for single payer. ....3. No, we don't have dramatic backlogs, yet, like the NHS or Health Canada. which is the exact reason they don't have spinal motion preservation as one, of many, examples..... 4 having actually worked at some point over 20 year of medicine in Canada, UK, Germany and France, to name a few, provides insight. You shouldn't depend on cliffnotes as a substitute for experience ;-)

MileHighWolverine

June 12th, 2017 at 11:41 AM ^

Add Spain to the list of countries with universal healthcare that have massive backlogs or will deny treatment at some point. Saw it firsthand with family members still there where the Dr. basically said continuing treatment wasn't worth it and that we should say goodbye now as our relative sure to die shortly. She was in a room, dying, surrounded by 20 other people getting treatment at the same time. That would never happen in the US....treatments would have continued until dying breath and I doubt they would have multiple people dying in a room. 

TrueBlue2003

June 12th, 2017 at 1:21 AM ^

The existence of backlogs for treatment in NO WAY necessarily indicates inefficiency.  If a country had no doctors, hospitals or any healthcare at all, it wouldn't have backlogs.  Is that an efficient system?  We have huge numbers of people that do not have access to healthcare at all.  That's a good way to keep backlogs down, but not a good way to be efficient. Would most of those uninsured kill just to be on a waitlist for treatment?  Waiting is better than not getting it at all.  Want to know how we know? Facts!

Efficiency is usually defined by outcomes/success per unit/amount of resources spent to acheive that outcome.  The US spends 16.4 percent of our GDP or a whopping $8,713/person on healthcare. We spend the most in the world per capita by quite a bit.  Canada spends only 10.4 percent of their GDP which is less than half the amount per person than the US.  And they have better outcomes!  The US, despite spending the most of healthcare, has the worst outcomes and lowest life expectancy out of any of the ten highest spending countries.

Granted, our demographics and culture puts us at a disadvantage compared to other rich countries but not so much that we should be spending TWICE as much per person on healthcare and still getting worse outcomes.

There's a reason very few people in Canada complain about those backlogs (most are happy to be on it!) and they wouldn't think about doing it differently (see the first source below and any poll of Canadians on the topic). Plus, Canada is usually considered one of the worst universal healthcare systems, compared to the UK, Australia, etc. and they still like their system better than we do.

Sources: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirr…

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/11/14/24-7-wall-st-c…

 

ATC

June 12th, 2017 at 3:49 AM ^

.... rather, experience and reality. You lost me at... "The existence of backlogs for treatment in NO WAY necessarily indicates inefficiency."..... COL Sherman T. Potter would categorize that as horse-hockey. I call it bullshit.... even broke the meter on that one.

UMinSF

June 11th, 2017 at 11:16 PM ^

I suspect we don't see eye-to-eye on much other than Michigan football, but maybe there's some common ground.

Almost all developed countries tax at higher rates than us.

As you said, many provide more government-funded health care (at varying levels/methods).

If your Austria comparison indicates you favor government-funded health care for all, I agree. I work in health care, mostly on the benefits side. Medicare, while far from perfect, does a pretty good job ensuring all seniors have access to health care.

IMO, it's more efficient and cost-effective to provide the same security and access to everyone ("Medicare for all") than our current system. I can say with confidence that health care costs aren't high primarily due to government waste/inefficiency. Every part of the system bears responsibility - insurers, hospitals, providers, pharma, device manufacturers, arcane pricing/billing/reimbursement system.   

Lots of room for debate about public vs. private or some combination, but current system of employer-based coverage + individual policies + government plans (Medicare, VA, Medicaid, etc.) and subsidies, is cumbersome and complex.

Now, about waste and inefficiency.

I honestly don't understand your comment. Of course they exist, but is your point that waste is greater here than elsewhere, or just a general complaint about government waste? Do other countries have greater accountability? 

It seems likely there's similar waste in governments of all developed countries, but I've never lived anywhere else so have no point of comparison. 

Sure, there's government waste here - but no way it accounts for a big % of our tax dollars (at least Federal taxes).

I lived in DC for years. While I never worked for the government, I was overwhelmingly impressed by the competence and work ethic of most people I knew who did.

If you look at how Federal tax dollars are spent, at least 60% couldn't be affected much by waste and inefficiency (mostly funds paid out through social security and other programs, + debt service). 

My source is the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-where-do-our-…

Of the remaining ~40%, I agree there's probably significant waste and inefficiency in running government programs and defense spending. Even if most waste were eliminated, it would only save a small portion of 40% of our tax dollars.

So, I'll grant that running our government super efficiently might save us a couple % points of taxes - a laudable goal for sure.

The only way to significantly lower taxes is to cut programs or spending, and there are only 3 really big pots - Social Security, Medicare, and Defense. That's about 60% of all government spending.

Cuts to any/all other programs wouldn't affect the budget much, unless eliminated or hugely cut back. For example, less than 1% of spending is on non-defense international programs, including all foreign aid, development and crisis spending.

I suppose slashing programs for the poor and infirm (Earned income tax credits, unemployment, Medicaid, disability, food stamps, etc.) would save pretty big money. That seems cruel and un-American to me, and even their total elimination would only save10-15% of the budget.

My point?  Waste and inefficiency aren't where most tax dollars go, nor to most government programs, foreign aid or safety net.

Social Security, Medicare and Defense is where 60% goes. Unless those are targeted, overall federal spending won't change much.

 

 

 

HL2VCTRS

June 11th, 2017 at 6:53 AM ^

We are over 40 comments in on a thread that has turned fairly political, and it has yet to turn into a shitshow. That's either mighty impressive or a sign of the apacolypse.

jblaze

June 11th, 2017 at 2:30 PM ^

It's not political at all. I just like the EPA (and FDA). If you don't, please visit any "3rd world" country and you will change your mind.

I Love Lamp

June 11th, 2017 at 8:44 AM ^

Take a field trip to Beijing and watch it snow. Let's just say, the snow isn't exactly white. Or in Cairo, where dead animals and trash fill ditches that empty into the Nile. And those are just two examples I've seen with my own eyes. I guess I'm just tired of the US getting the blame for environmental issues. Other nations can find a way to do their part, instead of pointing the finger at us.

HL2VCTRS

June 11th, 2017 at 8:57 AM ^

I think most of us are just saying that we should do everything WE can to protect the environment. That isn't predicated on others doing their part, it's focused on doing what we can control. I recycle. Should I stop recycling because my neighbor doesn't recycle? Let's focus on what we can 100% control... our response. And let's excel in that. Also, if you take the view that the US is supposed to be the "leader of the free world", then sometimes leading means doing more than those that are following you will or are capable of.

bluebyyou

June 11th, 2017 at 9:14 AM ^

I am a big advocate for clean air and water but there needs to be a balance. This country has recognized this problem (some of us are old enough to remember when we had rivers that could catch fire from chemical dumping) and has come a long way and needs to continue to improve.  There are ways to make improvements  without increasing the headwinds on American businesses in a manner that makes them less competitive in a global economy and where competitiors don't have the same concerns.  There needs to be sensible balances put in place.   

HL2VCTRS

June 11th, 2017 at 10:00 AM ^

I grew up in those times, have worked in companies that still have financial responsibility to superfund sites, and have had executive responsibility for environmental policy adherence in manufacturing (meaning that I was going to be held accountable by the state for compliance issues). I understand the challenges that environmental policy has on business, most acutely in manufacturing. However, I've also had the chance to tour solar plants, turbine installations and talk to government (local) officials in parts of Europe to understand the challenges they face. Saying that it makes us unable to be competitive in a global market is a cop out. There is a lot more that we can do before we are that uncompetitive. And even more we can do through innovation. The fact that Germany has more solar installations than us given their geographical size, environmental conditions, population and GDP should be example enough. Finally, as somebody who often gets involved in sourcing decisions and manufacturing strategy for a large company, environmental regulations are rarely a direct factor. indonesia labor rates aren't 1/20 (weighted for productivity) of the US just because they have lax to no environmental regulations.

Mp1228

June 11th, 2017 at 9:58 AM ^

This is actually my first comment in a thread, even though I've been them reading for a few years now, so please don't neg me to Bolivia if i do/say something not up to board etiquette. With that being said, I feel compelled to say I've lived in multiple states and regions of the country (the last 12 in the great state of Michigan) but since I've been here the water issues are a little alarming. I truly can't remember any issues in other places I've lived (Connecticut, Florida, etc) I'm sure they happen everywhere at times, but lemme put it this way: I was sent home from work at least 5 times during my 11 years at a job (Grand Rapids area) because of water issues. Add that to the awful Flint situation, and now this. Is this something that's common everywhere but I just never noticed/paid attention when I was younger? Or has this always been an issue in Michigan? I love living here, just curious to hear what longtime residents or more well informed people than I have to say

HL2VCTRS

June 11th, 2017 at 10:10 AM ^

I've lived in a bunch of the country as well and just returned to MI. It does seem worse here than most places. i think that's true of any of our infrastructure bridges, roads, etc.). im sure you can find other older, large industrial areas that are similar, but I think MI has managed their resources poorly. I'm assuming some of that is due to the fact that at about the same age that things needed replacement that Michigan basically had to deal with being exceptionally hard hit by the recession (and an ailing Detroit long before).

Honk if Ufer M…

June 11th, 2017 at 2:28 PM ^

So you talk about a subject that IS absolutely & directly the result of politics, allow misinformation to be unintentionally disseminated out of ignorance of politics, as designed by by the toxic mixture of corporations/the wealthy and government, whom both own and control the vast majority of the media and public information, and disallow the more pertinent answers because that would be politics!

Discussing things that have political roots while disallowing the things certain people see as political, while other people clearly see the politics embedded in the things people say who claim not to be political, is in itself political.

It's the worst kind of political discussion, the kind that specifically forbids the truth from even being talked about.

This is precisely 113.367893 zillion times more destructive and dangerous than anything, anyone, or everyone some of you might think we need to build walls to keep out.

UM2k1

June 11th, 2017 at 10:00 AM ^

The Farmington Hills/Livonia water issue is a very temporary issue due to a pump failure. The boil water advisory is because the system lost pressure and could possibly be exposed to bacteria. Once the system is repressureized and the water in system has cycled through (replaced with the normal chlorinated water) everything will be back to normal.

This is a really common occurrence (boil water advisories) whenever there is a main break, WM replacement or, like this instance, some other appurtenance failure.

Making this into some political or systematic issue is asinine.

bluins

June 11th, 2017 at 2:15 PM ^

You're conflating high-income (earned) with wealthy, and they are far from the same thing. Wealth is preferred over earned income in our tax system, and not just by a little. I think if people understand how taxation works at the very top (0.1 percent and above) then perspectives would change drastically. 

uncle leo

June 11th, 2017 at 4:26 PM ^

Just wanted to alert the good people of Livonia and Farmington Hills to be safe. Not to turn into some weird "state of the union" on water.