Resolved: That this House will not accept a Funk firing before season's end.

Submitted by Caesar on

 

 

Edit: I think there's some misunderstanding here. This is just a thread to discuss whether or not Funk should be fired with a slant towards 'no.'  It is a reaction to the calls for his firing in sUTL threads.

A summary of the debate to date (subject to edit)

Youth

Point: O-line is young.

Counterpoint: They're not as young. 

Development

Point: Borges effed this joint up. Compounding youth, unnecessary (and ineffective) complexity stifled learning. 

Counterpoint: Can't blame everything on Al. What if we're mistaking the the root of the problem--maybe Al was trying to gameplan around Funk's deficiencies. 

Knowledge

Point: He knows what he's doing.

Counterpoint: He doesn't know what he's doing.

-Ed: I don't know what I'm doing.

Results

Point: You've got to look at this stuff in context.  Blaming Funk for the poor state of the O-line is like forcing someone into a cage and accusing them of misbehaving when they throw something at you.

Counterpoint: We must judge him based on performance.

Calling all Experts

Magnus. Space Coyote. Other experts. 

 

MGoBoard
Football
O-line
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firing
funk
2014
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alum96

August 17th, 2014 at 11:06 AM ^

It is not difficult to be a top 20 defense in the Big 10 really it is not.  There were 3 in the top 10 last year only MSU was elite.  The offenses are not Pac 12 or Big 12 or SEC caliber.  There are currently maybe 2 QBs who will play on Sundays at QB in the conference.  The Big 12 is currently the antithesis of the Big 10 - their offensive stats are inflated and their defensive stats punished.

Look at the top 50 offenses last year from the Big 10, and the top 50 defenses.  We had 3 of the top 10 defenses.  And 3 of the top 50 offenses.  Plus most teams roll out non conf slates full of powerful MAC teams such as Eastern, Western, Ball State, Miami OH etc. (yes the SEC plays patsies too)

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22

To that end UM had top 20 defenses in 2011 and 2012 and neither was "elite".  My expectation is a defense in the top 20 and it not being elite.  Opponents matter.   Other than Mike Martin and Graham (throw in Kovacs if you will) we were not loaded with NFL type elite talent.

As long as the safety position resolves itself UM should be fine.  No one last year thought Iowa or Wisconsin was "elite" in defense but they were #6 and #7 in the country. We don't face a lot of high flying offenses this year and this defense should be a lot like Wisconsin's last year - can you name me 3 elite Wisconsin defensive players? 

Joined: 04/28/2012

MGoPoints: 82812

Michigan4Life

August 17th, 2014 at 12:42 PM ^

drafted. Christian Kirksey, and Anthony Hitchens. Wisconsin had Beau Allen, Chris Borland, and Dezmen Southward drafted.  Borland is one of the better LB in the country and is expected to start at ILB replacing Bowman who is currently injured.

Michigan was 40th in the country on defense according to football outsiders: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feiplus

Joined: 07/29/2010

MGoPoints: 25792

Pit2047

August 17th, 2014 at 3:49 PM ^

Ryan, Bolden, Clark, Pipkins, Hurst, Henry, Charlton, Gedeon, Wilson, Peppers, Countess, Lewis and maybe Stribling is he puts it together all have the potential to play on Sundays.  Though I would say only Peppers and Ryan have the talent to go in the first round along with MAYBE Gedeon, Charlton, and Henry could develop into that kind of player.

Joined: 06/12/2013

MGoPoints: 4370

mGrowOld

August 17th, 2014 at 9:56 AM ^

I called for Funk to be fired last season but rescinded that when I found out the severity of the personal issues he was dealing with. That said-if the o-line is another tire fire THIS year then yes, he should be fired but not until the end of the season.

Anybody basing an evaluation of the line and Funk's coaching abilities on a scrimmage is crazy. The defense ALWAYS looks better than the offense cause they know the sets and the plays that come from them. Plus the offensive generally keeps things pretty vanilla so what happened last night is no surprise.

Hoke knows how critical this year is to him personally and Hoke also knows that his o-line is the lynchpin to the offense so if he's good with Funk-so am I.

Joined: 10/04/2010

MGoPoints: 214092

Double-D

August 17th, 2014 at 9:56 AM ^

The D should always be playing at a higher level early in the season. The O is learning a new system. I saw some nice hard runs. I saw some great throws and great catches with still tight coverage. Our D line may just be a beast. Our backers flow very well. I am very encouraged about this year.

Joined: 12/21/2013

MGoPoints: 88069

MChem83

August 17th, 2014 at 9:57 AM ^

about a still-young and not overly experienced Oline. They won't be great, or even very good this year, but what should be expected is improvement and stability. 5 settled starters within a few games, and a unit that gets better and more effective as the season goes on are reasonable expectations at the Funk level. If that doesn't happen this year, then Funk needs to be gone, though I don't think there will be much benefit in ditching him halfway through. For the record, I thought Funk should have been shown the door after last year, but for now, we've got what we've got. Though I have absolutely no evidence for it, I've always left room for the possibility that Borges deliberately took the fall for our Oline problems last year, rather than let Funk get canned. At the Nuss level...we have to hope that he can design plays that work to our strengths, and doesn't constantly call plays in denial of our weaknesses. And let's not forget...as ugly as our offense looked at times last year, our overall PPG and ypg in 2013 were about as good as most other years in the last decade. It was our defense that was a bigger problem last year, and the inability to come up with big plays at key moments, PSU and OSU being the classic cases. If our O can be on a par with last year, and our D can be better, 9 wins is achievable.

Joined: 04/17/2014

MGoPoints: 414

umfan323

August 17th, 2014 at 10:07 AM ^

Why is it far too early when he has been on the job as long as Borges ?? Yet we never have had a competent O line , if the calls were for Borges to be fired then Funk should have been gone as well. Give him time, youth, defense is ahead of the offense this time of year I call BS..He needed to be shown the door right along with Borges

Joined: 01/19/2011

MGoPoints: -99997697

Sports

August 17th, 2014 at 10:36 AM ^

Because it's more difficult to assess an o-line. If you watched the play calling last year, it was horrendous. Not just in that there were repeated off tackle power runs from Fitz getting stuffed at the line, but also that Borges refused to employ reasonable counters or bubble screens or anything that would have given our qb a chance at not having his ribs methodically ground into paste.

Joined: 04/23/2014

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Double-D

August 17th, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^

A more complicated system under Borges. A system I'm not so sure he believed in. Now he is helping implement an entirely new system under Nuss. Let's give him a chance. I think we will see good growth in the line play as the season goes. So many things go into this. I really like Devin getting up under center early in the play clock. Getting into the right play can really help your o-line. The offense was Vanilla on purpose. If we were blowing open big holes on this Defense right now I would be worried for this season. I'm not.

Joined: 12/21/2013

MGoPoints: 88069

leu2500

August 17th, 2014 at 10:08 AM ^

the Oline might be good. http://mgoblog.com/content/hokepoints-when-will-o-line-be-ready

The first chart, examining almost 20 years of Michigan history, indicates that Oline players have been mostly backups in their 2nd and 3rd years. It takes 4/5years for them to be solid or better. 

This years Oline, except for Miller, Glasgow, and Byrzinski, is all 3rd year or less.

Based on this, it appears unresonable to expect Funk to accomplish in 2/3 years what it took other Michigan Oline coaches 4/5 years to accomplish.

Joined: 01/22/2011

MGoPoints: 2119

blue in dc

August 17th, 2014 at 12:39 PM ^

In the 2 deep and after Molk went down with injuries, they were not that good. In 2011, which was I think far and away the best offensive line we've had in the post Carr era, there were six upperclassmen in the two deep. Last year there were 3 (including walk-on Burzynski before he got hurt). This year, likely 3 again including two walkons. The only year that was comparable was the tire fire that was 2008, in which after the turnover, an injury to Zrbel and all the turnover, there were 3 redshirt juniors on the team, 4 star Moosman and three stars Ortmann and McAvoy.. He also only had three three red-shirt sophomors to work with. I still have lots of questions about Funk, but Frey was generally working with more experience.

Joined: 01/22/2011

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blue in dc

August 17th, 2014 at 1:12 PM ^

For the time examined only 21.5 percent of third year players are solid big ten performers. So if one of Magnuson, Kalis or Braden i s solid the four man 2011 recruiting class hits the mark. Looking at some of the historic recruiting classes (see 1997, 1999, 2005 and to a lesser extent, 2004 and 2008), there have been a number of 4 plus player recruiting claases with multiple 4 and 5 stars that did not pan out .

Joined: 01/22/2011

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xxxxNateDaGreat

August 17th, 2014 at 10:35 AM ^

I'm on the side of blaming youth, bringing the longstanding argument of: O lineman do not typically start until they are junior/senior and freshman starters generally = DOOM.

Joined: 11/28/2011

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chunkums

August 17th, 2014 at 10:45 AM ^

I would like to present the Michigan State argument:

 

In 2012, MSU went 6-6 and had an offense that could do nothing. The line couldn't block at all, but they were fortunate enough to have a starting NFL back standing behind the quarterback. The offense sucked for the entire year. After the season, MSU hired new co-coordinators, but retained the same OL coach. They started out the season worse than 2012, but I think we all know what happened as the season went on. I don't expect our OL to be good at the start of the year. I expected it to be good by the end of the year.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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chunkums

August 17th, 2014 at 10:56 AM ^

Like us, MSU changed coordinators but not OL coaches. In their case, the OL got substantially better with the switch, but it happened over the course of the second season. This doesn't mean our OL will get better, but it does show that a precedent exists for retaining the OL coach and improving the OL. Young lines usually get better. The last couple years were an anomally, so hopefully Borges was the cause of the anomally.

Joined: 06/30/2008

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alum96

August 17th, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^

MSU had heavy injuries to their OL in 2012.  Those experienced players came back in 2013.  MSU's offensive woes in 2013 early were not having a QB or a RB.  Their OL was projected to be a strength entering the season as it was full of upperclassmen.  To that they added 1 walk on 2012 player who played out of his head (per the OL coach he did not give up a single sack all year as a tackle). 

It is not a good parallel as we have a completely different issue.

Now if you want to argue we are going to get 5 guys to step up like Langford and Cook did - then that's a valid comparison.

Joined: 04/28/2012

MGoPoints: 82812

BlueMan80

August 17th, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^

Well, the defense has had stability under Mattison and is reaping the benefits now. The players have been brought up through the system. The offensive line needs a period of stability, too. They've been jerked all over the past few years. Give them a chance to work together as a unit. If the season is another slide down the slope to crapville with no improvement, then more drastic changes need to happen with heads rolling.

Joined: 01/21/2011

MGoPoints: 13091

scanner blue

August 17th, 2014 at 11:00 AM ^

From my perspective ( on the field -- limited replays on the big screen) most, if not all the running plays ran straight ahead inside the tackles.  No sweeps, little misdirection, basic rb formations. Looks like vanilla, smells like vanilla, tastes like vanilla ... ergo we saw vanilla.

Joined: 07/14/2014

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DennisFithian

August 17th, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^

Question: did anybody else notice how much sound Brandon was pushing through speakers? I sat with my family around the 50 yard line and it was pretty obvious he was pumping in noise. I'm sure it was helpful to re-create game environment. But all I could think about was David Brandon doing it during games to make it seem crazier.

Joined: 08/14/2014

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True Blue Grit

August 17th, 2014 at 11:46 AM ^

last night.  It got to be just plain obnoxious.  A lot of the time, my wife and I could barely hear each other it was so loud.  Yes, I get they were trying to make the players more used to being in a loud environment.  But, I think they could have shut it down for a few periods.  What was kind of weird was every so often some public address announcer would make a report of who carried the ball or caught it or whatever.  But, most of the time, they didn't bother. 

Joined: 01/21/2011

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Magnus

August 17th, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^

I wasn't at the scrimmage last night, so all I have to go on is last year and the practice videos we've been seeing.

Funk is clearly knowledgeable and experienced in coaching the offensive line. The question is whether he can teach well enough. It's very difficult to judge an offensive line that is so young and inexperienced. I mean, aside from the two bookend tackles, last year included a four- or five-game stretch where Michigan's best option at center was a guy who screwed up A SNAP OR TWO PER GAME. That's not on the offensive line coach - that's on inexperience and a lack of depth.

I am a big proponent of simplicity. I think Borges's schemes were too numerous last year, and it's tough to teach a bunch of young guys so many different kinds of footwork, combo blocks, calls, etc. My hope is that Nussmeier is simplifying things in the playbook to help his offensive line. In my opinion, Michigan should be running inside zone, outside zone, maybe a pin-and-pull scheme, and some kind of counter scheme. The inside and outside zone schemes are very similar, the pin and pull is pretty darn easy, and a counter is necessary (IMO) to slow teams down and/or take advantage of undisciplined backside players.

I think the team will show progress in running the ball by the end of the season. If that's not the case, then I believe Funk should be fired following the 2014 season. You can't go that long with a crappy offensive line and not hold the OL coach responsible.

Joined: 07/17/2008

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wolverinebutt

August 17th, 2014 at 11:41 AM ^

Funk has been taking a beating and I understand, but the root of the problem goes back to RR.

His lack of recruiting OL is why we have been so young and struggling.

That does not give the staff a free pass, but better days are coming my friends.  Lets just hope its soon as in this season that we see the leap forward.     

Joined: 06/05/2011

MGoPoints: 3467

True Blue Grit

August 17th, 2014 at 11:42 AM ^

First, there is virtually ZERO chance Hoke will fire Funk part way through the season despite any speculation of anyone on this board.  The only way it happens is Funk pulls a Gary Moeller or some other completely random, crazy behavior.  Second, unless one of the football staff is secretly posting here, no one knows or sees what is going on in practice and meeting rooms every day.  Nor do any of us know the individual challenges being faced by each of the O-linemen to get better.  Third, when it comes to staffing and personnel issues, I defer to the head coach to know what's best.  And if the results on the field over the course of the complete season (not fall practice for two weeks) is not what Michigan needs to accomplish its goals, then it will be a matter between Coach Hoke and his boss.  Until then, I'm going to sit back, hope for the best, and not worry about Coach Funk's job status at all. 

Joined: 01/21/2011

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