Question for those blaming Warde: did you want Harbaugh fired in 2020?
To be as clear as possible, I'll state my positions up front on this whole saga so that you'll understand exactly where I'm coming from when I ask what I think is an important question for everyone to consider.
- I expected winning to be tough after 2016 due to the transition recruiting class and the relative imbalance between underclassmen and upperclassmen on the roster
- I thought the inability to get over the hump was due in large part to bad officiating in high-leverage situations and horrible luck with QB injuries
- The only aspect of the roster management that I thought were bad in those wayward years were inability of interior DTs to hold up against the run and inability of our 3rd corner to cover 5* receivers
- I thought the people calling for Harbaugh to be fired were having an emotion-driven knee-jerk reaction which was not based on a serious analysis of all the factors at work
- I thought 2020 was a joke season and did not matter AT ALL in terms of evaluating Harbaugh's job performance, specifically because of how young the roster was in that year and how little practice time they had
- I think the infamous pay cut Harbaugh received played no part in "motivating him" to "coach the team better", that the money probably mattered very little to him, and that he did feel disrespected by the AD regardless (and perhaps by many of the fans too)
- If the relationship between Harbaugh and Warde had not soured, I think it might have increased the chances of retaining Harbaugh a bit, but he was still going to be very interested either way in NFL opportunities where he feels like ownership and management will stay out of his way and let him build his kind of team and pursue his Super Bowl dream
- I'm not here to discuss how Warde has handled other coaches and teams in the athletic department, or defend him from criticism, or evaluate his overall performance as AD, or decide whether Warde should be fired or retained as AD. Those are all good discussions to have, but right now I'm interested more narrowly in his handling of Harbaugh during the middle years when tons of fans wanted Harbaugh gone, and the extent to which an athletic director is expected to ignore the fans and public or to listen to them in those situations.
With all of that out of the way, here is a question for those of you blaming Warde for Harbaugh's return to the NFL that I'd like you to answer honestly: do you mostly agree with my reasoning above? If not, then what are the specific points at which we are suddenly on completely different pages?
I'm not saying that blaming Warde today makes you a hypocrite if you wanted Harbaugh fired back in 2020, either. Maybe you admit you were wrong in 2020 and you think it's the AD's responsibility to shut out the fan noise and know better -- that's a perfectly consistent and reasonable position to take in this discussion. Maybe you didn't want Harbaugh fired and thought like I did that he was the best of the available options. No matter the case, I want you to think critically, be curious, and respectfully let me know what you think.
Thanks and Go Blue!
January 26th, 2024 at 5:39 PM ^
As I stated in the OP that you did not read, I'm not here to discuss Warde's job performance, or whether or not Warde should be fired. I think those are valid topics, I'm simply not interested.
What I am interested in SPECIFICALLY is whether the fans blaming Warde for Harbaugh leaving are the same people that wanted Harbaugh fired in 2020.
So far, there have been a small number that owned up to it, but I can count them on one hand yet there are over a hundred responses to this thread. These numbers don't quite seem to add up to me.
January 27th, 2024 at 12:42 AM ^
Many probably are. Many wanted JB and/or Backich fired. They were wrong. I didn't want any of those things. I wanted Warde out recently only after many missteps. Don't deny he's not doing his job well. Not to mention anecdotal evidence that you can just use the ADs parking spot all over town at if you need to of you're someone that occasionally needs to be at multiple locations. He's never there.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:32 PM ^
I wanted him fired after the loss to MSU in 2021. It just looked like more of the same, can’t beat our rivals, can’t win big games, can’t win on the road, yada yada. I also figured another loss to OSU was looming. I was horribly, horribly wrong, and I get caught up in my emotions.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:39 PM ^
Good on you for admitting it, that's the first step.
For me, the fact that Aidan Hutchinson returned for 2021, and then seeing the positive emotions as he and Coach were screaming in each other's faces after the Nebraska victory, confirmed that I had gotten in right.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:44 PM ^
That game was a hose job by refs. There were 6 reviews and every one went Shartys way. The Commish was at the game and his kid was on their team.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:32 PM ^
Maybe?
January 26th, 2024 at 3:33 PM ^
At no point did I want Harbaugh fired.
Warde is completely replaceable and he should have been shown the door years ago.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:34 PM ^
We just won a freaking National Championship. For those that blame Warde and can't stand him, good for you. For those that back Warde and think he did all he could good for you. I am thankful no one can take away what Team 144 accomplished with Harbaugh and Warde. Go Blue!
January 26th, 2024 at 3:36 PM ^
No, but I was concerned. I also realized that 2020 was an outlier and nothing good could come out of that season, and that is where I was wrong. Fire sharpens steel and steel got sharpened. Going into 2021 I had ZERO expectations and man, what a surprise. Now, that is where I believe Warde and Jim began their silent feud, and yes Jim took it personally with the salary reduction. Not the money part. And then after 2021, when Jim went NFL hunting, I believe Warde took it personally. Sometimes it just becomes irreconcilable. And yet, I still believe that Warde acted in the best interests of the University, if not the head coach. There is not a one of us, if we are truthful with ourselves, that had not expected this exact thing to happen. It is the third year of the dalliance with the NFL, AFTER he had promised never again. That was it for me. The Tell. Jim gonna Jim. God Bless him, thank God For him, and on to the next chapter. Still, nobody has it better than us this year. We are the Lead Dog. Everyone is still looking at our ass. Enjoy the view.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:37 PM ^
2020 was stupid all around and should be discarded.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:37 PM ^
Let's move on.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:37 PM ^
Did I want Harbaugh fired after the 2020 season? No.
Did Warde also bungle things after the 2021 season, when he did not even restore Harbaugh's pay to his pre-cut level? Yes.
We got the past two seasons by luck (Minnesota dropping the ball), not by anything Warde did.
Look where we were two years ago, when Warde dropped the ball. The internal candidates were Josh Gattis (according to MGoBlog) or Mike Hart; reports were that Matt Rhule or Bill O'Brien (or maybe Matt Campbell?) were outside candidates.
Look what has happened with each the past two years, and please defend Warde's actions after the 2021 season.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:30 PM ^
We got the past two seasons by luck (Minnesota dropping the ball)
Ding ding ding!
He wanted out after 2021. If it's all Warde's fault, then it happened in 2020 and 2021. Not 2023.
Harbaugh rebuffed the Broncos (so I've been told by this message board) in 2022 because he wanted to see the Blake/JJ/Zinter/etc. team through. Not because he was done with his NFL pursuit and a UM lifer.
Nothing Warde could do in 2023 to keep him from looking at the NFL. Nothing.
If firing Warde was going to keep Harbaugh, well, Warde wasn't going to fire himself.
Yet the people who could fire him never get the finger pointed at them...
Ah well, go figure.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:52 PM ^
Nope - just because Warde bungled 2021 doesn't mean that he didn't also bungle this year. One example: giving in on the contract request (after months of saying no) when Harbaugh is already in Los Angeles? The incompetence is staggering. Could Hackett or someone with vision/drive found a way to keep him here after the 2023 season? We'll never know, because that is not what we had. Given everything we know about Warde's lack of effort to retain other great coaches here, dragging his feet on the hockey issues, etc., this latest turn did not surprise me. And if you are suggesting there are other institutional problems at Michigan, I don't think the folks criticizing Warde would disagree with you.
January 26th, 2024 at 5:03 PM ^
I will concede that just because Warde made a bad decision in 2020 (cutting his pay in half) doesn't mean it would be impossible to overcome that in 2023, despite what I wrote above. So, in some sense, I take that back.
Regarding the "offering him everything he wanted" minutes before he signed with LA, my assumption has been that wasn't a real offer. It was offered after Michigan knew it was too late. So, making such an offer, and then making that public, is a PR move, and a rather idiotic one at that. No excuse for being so stupid, but it wasn't a real offer.
Or was it leaked by the Harbaugh side, and it truly was a last second "Oh okay we're sorry we didn't think you were really going to the NFL here's everything you asked for!" offer?
Well, that is indeed beyond idiotic. So mindbogglingly stupid I actually don't accept that without further proof.
But in either case, those are decisions above Warde's head. Still waiting for someone to make an OP or even a comment that says Fire Santa.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:38 PM ^
I am not one who has been calling for Warde to be fired. I did think, at the time, that Jim should have been fired. Thank heavens that Warde didn't listen to me.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:38 PM ^
I didn't expect for Harbaugh to be fired in 2020. I also didn't expect for him to be retained this year. But my main gripe with Warde is he changed course last minute. He caved to Jim's demands in the 11th hour, when it was too late to make a difference. He had all this time to cave but he chose the exact wrong moment to do so. If the goal was ever to retain Harbaugh, he went about it the wrong way. I don't believe he really wanted Harbaugh back. I think he wanted him to go away the whole time a la Jed York. And the about-face the day the Chargers hired Jim was Warde attempting to save-face for the fanbase that clearly wanted him to do what he was unwilling to do.
If you're going to give in, then give in when it matters to anything more than making you look better than what you are.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:38 PM ^
I didn't want Harbaugh fired.
But Warde shouldn't get "credit" for not doing anything in 2020. That's his default mode.
Fire Warde.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:43 PM ^
Well, he DID do something. He cut Harbaugh's pay in half. Doing nothing would have been better than that, I think.
Still think Harbaugh is coaching the Chargers next year regardless. He wants to win Super Bowl, and the fact that he can do so without recruiting or dealing with bullshit from the NCAA and the B1G probably makes it even more appealing.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:41 PM ^
I did not want Harbaugh fired after the 2020 season. And, my wish is that Harbaugh would be Michigan's head coach until he "finished coaching".
I recall prior to the 2021 season - when people would ask - "What do you think of Harbaugh?"
My answer was - he's a great fit for Michigan. There is no one else that I'd prefer to see on Michigan's sideline. Who do you think Michigan should hire in his place - or - would do a better job.
The real irony here is - IF the call in the 2016 game against Ohio State is "short" - there would have been about five less years of "Harbaugh can't defeat OSU" from the media / pundits.
This being said - Harbaugh's moving on. I'll be cheering for Team 145 - the players and staff this season - and, ANY player on Team 144 is always welcome at our tailgate. (As a point of note - all former players are welcome at our tailgate - and, we love it when former players - or current players parents / families join us for a few minutes.)
January 26th, 2024 at 3:49 PM ^
I agree with you on all points.
Regarding 2016, I think Chesson getting tackled by that DB while the refs did nothing is even worse than the bad spot.
Anyway, it's an oddly shaped ball and it tends to bounce in unpredictable ways. I wish more fans would think about the nature of random events, and consider whether outcomes are due to randomness or due to systemic problems that are likely to re-occur.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:58 PM ^
Well said. Unfortunately fans live up to the fanatic label too often and aren't able to use their entire brain while engaging in their rooting interests.
Not a quote guy but one I came across years ago...Often there isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between winning and losing, it's mainly just how the outsiders perceives the result. Something along those lines.
In basketball, one missed wide open 3 ball can spell the difference between winning and losing by 5 (after fouling, etc.). In football a missed PI call here and there, an aforementioned odd bounce by a goofy ball, or a goalline stop on a game winning 2pt conversion.
But we surely play the result and want to upend things based on those Ws and Ls and usually much too prematurely.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:42 PM ^
I wanted Harbaugh fired after 2020 season. He didn't look or act the same. I don't know what happened but it seems the outside pressure was getting to him. Poggi seemed to get him back on track and for that I will be forever grateful. Warde needs to go.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:42 PM ^
Warde needs to leave
January 26th, 2024 at 3:44 PM ^
I wanted him to can Jay Harbaugh. Just to fire a shot across Jim's bow.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:44 PM ^
Holy shit. Every person creating a new thread about Warde is the Worst Person of the Day, regardless of which side they're on.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:51 PM ^
If you look deeply, it's not really a thread about Warde. It's more about this board and many of the characters who frequent it.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:45 PM ^
Always loved Harbaugh. Always thought he would get us there.
It's a little more complex than "blaming Warde." Believing that the man is bad at his job and screwed this up doesn't mean that there is no blame anywhere else.
It's criminal that we didn't renew Harbaugh over the summer, and that we didn't tell the NCAA and then Pettiti exactly where they could stick it.
Warde should have been an advocate and an asset, and instead he sat on his ass, being an ass. And there is no one who is more to blame than he for Jim being gone.
And your OP title and self-congratulation for purported reasonableness make you come off as an ass too. Don't think you are, based on previous interaction, but this was a worse post than average, in a season of bad and unnecessary posts.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:03 PM ^
That's fair criticism.
As I said, I'm not defending him or saying that he's good at his job. I tried to make that clear but I'm not particularly surprised to see many people jumping to that conclusion either.
I think a few of them just read the title of the thread and assumed the rest without actually reading it.
I am still interested in knowing what percent of people will come forward and say "I wanted Harbaugh fired in 2020. I was wrong, and I'm glad Warde didn't listen to me." Which doesn't make Warde a good AD by any means.
I think it's healthy to admit when we've been wrong in the past, and particularly so at a time like this when emotions are running high.
I don't get it right all the time either -- I thought firing Hoke was a bad move, because I didn't think we were getting Harbaugh up until the point when it actually happened. I thought there's no way he'd willingly deal with recruiting, the NCAA, and all the other BS involved in college coaching.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:45 PM ^
I'm just here to continue beating the same dead horse over and over and over again.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:45 PM ^
No. Fire Warde
January 26th, 2024 at 3:49 PM ^
Listen its time to have an honest conversation about this. Ive read posts on here about how people dont want Moore if he is going to have 2 loss seasons. I think we need to revisit where we were as a program post covid. There were a couple staunch supporters standing by Harbaugh no matter what the results, then there were several "Fire Harbaugh" with fire in their eyes. Then there was a huge group that hated the fact that it was probably time for him to go. I want you to imagine Moore having these results in a season.
3 point win over Army
21 point loss to Wisconsin
Loss to Penn st
29 point loss to OSU
19 point loss to Alabama
I wont go into specifics on the covid season because that was truly a mess but we came into the season limping already. By the end of 2020 Harbaugh was 9-8 in his last 17 games. It was a rough stretch and it was the hope and energy that seemed to be telling us it was time. I asked if Coach cant get us there who will? But my thinking was that he had lost his drive and was kind of checked out at the time. You were taking Old Yeller out back and putting him out of his misery and there was no joy in that.
Warde did what he did and Jim Harbaugh'd himself and the program and really became a new coach all over again. I thank Warde for keeping coach and although it feels like a Ron Swanson style "Id rather do nothing if given the choice" it still worked. Since that day im not sure he has many wins though.
I dont celebrate anyone being fired at U of M and I think most of us would rather the person in place succeeded instead. Harbaugh and his 21,22, and 23 staff/team would destroy that 2019 team but there is no way anyone couldve seen that coming. Its a beautiful and legendary job all of them have done since kick off 2021. Amazing job everyone!
January 26th, 2024 at 4:14 PM ^
That Wisconsin loss was particularly brutal because of how inevitable the outcome seemed every time they handed the ball off.
Anyway, I share your concerns about how quickly one subset of fans is going to turn on Moore the very moment we face any kind of adversity.
I think there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Moore is an outstanding coach. A poster on here was saying how their son played for him before he came to Michigan and was absolutely effusive about him. Jim Harbaugh has endorsed him, which is also unsurprising, and should give everyone a lot of optimism. The players all want him, which is maybe the most telling thing. I still get inspired thinking about the story of the first meeting he had with the OL as their new coach, where he locked the doors and brought everyone together, and said the turnaround has to start right here and nobody else can make it happen.
I hope that we are patient, too. A lot of factors go into winning and losing football games other than the direct decisions made by the head coach. Some of those factors are totally outside of control, even. Sometimes, wrong decisions get made, but lessons are learned and those wrong decisions don't get repeated.
January 26th, 2024 at 5:13 PM ^
Anyway, I share your concerns about how quickly one subset of fans is going to turn on Moore the very moment we face any kind of adversity.
Yeah when people said "I would hope they let him go if he has 2-3 loss seasons"
Good god.
Almost all of our worst years have been due to a very suspect oline and defense. Moore can handle one of those himself. Hire/retain a stud d coordinator and you may have a secret one up on 3rd base and frames. Everyone thinks its skill players and 5 stars. No its elite dline/oline/secondary. The rest takes care of itself usually. At least in this case a bumpy season should still lead to the playoffs. Lets get some recruiting MOJO back!
January 26th, 2024 at 3:50 PM ^
Stop with the Covid year bullshit. It will forever have an asterisk on it.
With the exception of the $EC every conference and school handled it differently. Not all players were available. Michigan being the overly cautious school that it is (to many faults), was likely worried about litigation from sickness or injury due to it. The NCAA being the bold leaders that they are shrugged their shoulders and said - you guys figure it out - then stuck their heads in the sand until they happily handed Saban another trophy.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:50 PM ^
I didn't want Harbaugh *fired* after 2020. At all. And I was in complete disagreement with the editors and posters on this blog who wanted the try-hard Matt Campbell as a reset. However, I did want a new approach on both sides of the ball - particularly on defense.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:55 PM ^
No, I thought the people who were fine moving on from Harbaugh were absolutely insane. I think the people willing to let a very clear pattern of ambivalence from Warde as to whether or not Jim returns this year are equally stupid.
The refrain I kept hearing on the podcast was "WELL, HE DREAMED OF A SUPER BOWL SO HE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO LEAVE, DUH"
John U Bacon's position, which he was cut off from making a number of times by that poorly thought out assertion, was "That may be true, but we can be certain that we'll never know because it's very clear that not everything was done to keep him, both in the immediate timeframe of the post-season negotiations as well as during the season leading up to this."
Now, one can whine and cry and assert all he wants that none of it would have mattered because Jim was definitely gone anyway. But the answer to the question of "did the school do everything it reasonably could have to keep him?" will always be a resounding No.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:45 PM ^
These are my thoughts exactly. Last fall I saw an interview with John Harbaugh and he was asked about Jim going to the NFL and he said something like "I think he's a lifer at Michigan".
Last fall. Jim's own brother.
Warde wanted Jim gone without taking the blame for it and he got exactly what he wanted.
Now watch him treat Moore like Brandon treated Hoke.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:58 PM ^
No I did not want Jim fired in 2020
Most people did not understand that the team was not able to have in person practices while many other states had far less restrictive Covid rules which that year provided a huge advantage-
Warde needs to go- just his friendship with Jim Singleton should be enough for Santa to know that he doesn't show good judgement.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:19 PM ^
Not only was the team not allowed to have in person practices; Michigan also had one of the youngest rosters in the country that year, which means the lack of practice time was magnified.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:59 PM ^
Enough with the hindsight 20/20 bullshit. It's irrelevant. Okay, you didn't want Harbaugh fired in 2020. Look at you, you stud. Congrats on being a true Michigan hero unlike the other lousy no-goods that wanted him gone. You're so much better than everyone else. Truly a magnificent person with a the hopeful spirit we should all strive for. Wow. Wow. Wow.
Satisfied? Can we move on from this topic?
January 26th, 2024 at 4:29 PM ^
I'm not perfect -- I thought firing Hoke was a mistake because I didn't think we were going to get Harbaugh, and then what was plan B? Obviously I got that one wrong.
As for whether or not we can move on, that depends on whether everyone continues to have strong emotional "the sky is falling!" reactions to every single bad thing that happens. If people start being more thoughtful and curious then we should absolutely we should move on.
If people can't do that, maybe they should be reminded every once in a while.
If Michigan loses on the road against OSU's NFL roster of mercenaries next year, will you be saying that Moore can't get it done, it's time to move on, etc?
I've mostly held my tongue about the people that wanted Harbaugh fired, because I've just been enjoying these last three beautiful, brilliant football seasons. In retrospect, maybe it wouldn't hurt to rub it in a bit.
January 26th, 2024 at 5:02 PM ^
Three Honks sentiment
- 2008-2013: I'm waiting for Michigan to "Be Back"
- 2014: I guess Michigan is a middle-of-the-pack B1G team now
The latter sentiment leads to tickets going for Two Cokes. Hoke had to be fired.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:04 PM ^
Nope, I wanted Don Brown and Gattis out though.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:07 PM ^
Hell No!
January 26th, 2024 at 4:10 PM ^
If one gets credit for nothing happening, one also has to take blame for nothing happening. Fact is we don’t know that Warde did ANYTHING to actually keep Harbaugh in 2020 and in fact did the worst of all things by passively aggressively giving Harbaugh a shit sandwich of a contract in hopes Harbaugh would either 1. Leave on his own or 2. Accept shit contract and make it look like he was a “boss” in doing so. Warde put Warde in a win win position in a lazy self preserving fashion. And THAT is why Harbaugh loathed him. It showed zero courage, and zero support. Had Harbaugh left and called his bluff in 2020, we’d be coached by Matt “don’t call me Brady Hoke” Campbell, but Harbaugh is leaving and once again spineless Warde made an 11th hour offer to save face with the public. Sorry Warde, not having it.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
I was never at the "Fire JH point" but pretty damn close. Good thing he wasn't fired.
January 26th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
No, and one has nothing to do with the other. Couldn't you have asked that in one of the other 1,352 posts this week?
January 26th, 2024 at 4:16 PM ^
No, I was yelling at all the idiots that did want him fired. Matt fucking Campbell, are you kidding me?