Nothing Burger
Here it is. A low level staffer — not even on the coaching staff — breaks down video of opposing teams. Gasp.
‘The article does make clear that doing so is not illegal, yet it spends several paragraphs addressing Harbaugh’s potential punishment and concludes — for some reason — that this is worse that the Astros and Patriots.
The issue is this: did this staffer go to games of opponents and tape them. The NCAA has nothing and they know it. (That’s why they are asking for his computer).
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38700739/michigan-staffer-eyed-center-elaborate-scouting-scheme-sources-say
October 20th, 2023 at 1:40 AM ^
Sorry about the link.
Also — wanted to add this is an obvious leak by the NCAA to control the narrative after Harbaugh and his attorney shit in the NCAA’s hat earlier today.
And, whatever else Michigan does, do not give these NCAA hacks access to the guy’s computer. They have no right to it and it’s literally just a fishing expedition.
Edit: The kid referenced in the article is beyond impressive and nothing in his military background implies he is anything other than a straight arrow. The guy is working his ass off to get a start in coaching and he is owed the benefit of the doubt. Look him up.
October 20th, 2023 at 1:50 AM ^
And the useless title? It could have at very least been more informative. And it would be nice if it didn't rush to judgment. I agree that we didn't do anything wrong as a program, but I wouldn't say that this is nothing.
The way he describes his scouting role is hyper-aggressive. It wouldn't be surprising if he crossed lines.
At that point, it's obviously difficult to prove involvement of upper level staff, but you just know that the NCAA will consider it an illegal competitive advantage anyway and try to vacate wins, etc.
October 20th, 2023 at 2:02 AM ^
Sorry about the title I guess, however, you clicked on it despite it not meeting your exacting standards. Whatever.
As for it being a nothing burger: earlier today the story was Harbaugh employed a vast network of spies to break all sorts of rules and steal signals. In fact, various media sources said the conduct was so bad that MSU had considered not playing this weekend’s game out of a concern for the safety of their players.
12 hours later, the story is a low-level staffer in the recruiting department watches video of opponents and the NCAA wants access to his computer to determine if there is any truth to the allegations of the two teams we beat up on earlier in the year. Nothing Burger.
Yet, despite all this, you make reference to vacating wins.
Go back to worrying about informative titles . . .
October 20th, 2023 at 2:29 AM ^
I clicked on it because I was preparing a proper post with informative title, inline quotes, and a link that works, all without rendering my own judgment in the OP.
So, I had to make sure it hadn't been posted yet. You made me dig for it, but I found it.
October 20th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
To clarify this a bit, I'm the mod who deleted the 2nd post, sometime around 2am. I did so without looking at this "Nothing Burger" post first, and that was (besides the fact it was in the wee hours of the night) because as soon as opening that 2nd post, I saw the request to delete it due to it being "2nd place". I proceeded without looking to see who the author was.
One thing I did immediately notice, though: it was well written with a clear and non-clickbaity title. In hindsight, if I had instead looked first at both threads. I likely would have instead deleted this one. Though "first in" is usually the primary rule-of-thumb, it's not the end-all/be-all. And "Nothing Burger" is, by definition, very much a click-baity thread title.
October 20th, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
Cool beans
October 20th, 2023 at 8:21 AM ^
More than vacating wins, the real concern is that in this day and age, whether somebody actually did something or not is irrelevant, it is how “people feel” about the person or what is being alleged.
I feel like it is completely feasible that Michigan could go undefeated and be ranked number 1 in the polls and be left out of the Playoff because of them “not wanting a cloud” over the Playoff. Again, right now in America, a mere “allegation” is enough for people to justify action in response and nobody will call it out or defend the accused. (No comment here about how we got here, that’s an issue for a different message board).
What is being lost in all of this is that there are a roster full of players working their asses off who are being thrown out with bath water so to speak and they can’t do anything about it. All of this “can’t comment” stuff is bullshit and I’m sick of it. I really wish a Michigan player would take the podium before this game and offer a full-throated rejection of this entire narrative. What are they going to do, suspend him? I guess, if they want to look like complete psychopaths.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^
Undefeated number 1 vs flimsy barely-anything-to-back-it-up won't keep Michigan out of the playoff. The burden of proof will have to be on the NCAA to create a fact-based narrative that likely goes all the way to the top, before something like that happens.
Now, where it may have more 'weight' is a scenario like Ohio State's last year, only in reverse. If there's a situation where (god forbid) Michigan loses to Ohio, has one loss, and is vying along with 3 or 4 other teams for a couple subjective spots in the playoff, then maybe its neat and tidy to keep Michigan out. Or the whole 'optics' of it is easier to just go with Alabama and Oklahoma (or whatever). But an objectively 'best team in the land' undefeated 13-0 Michigan wouldn't be kept out in this current scenario.
October 20th, 2023 at 1:53 PM ^
While possible, the chances of being undefeated now that they can’t steal signs probably makes this a moot point.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:58 AM ^
in this day and age, whether somebody actually did something or not is irrelevant, it is how “people feel” about the person or what is being alleged.
I hate to break it to you, but this isn't new. This has been the norm on this continent for at least 400 years (my history is a little shaky, I'm sure it's been much longer).
October 20th, 2023 at 9:07 AM ^
In its current form it is pretty new.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^
Joseph McCarthy, Salem Witch Hunts, Spanish Inquisition....
way more than 400 years...
October 20th, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Those are well known because they are exceptions to the rule. The exception is the rule now.
October 20th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
Ignorant statements like these always annoy me in that they ooze white privilege.
An entire race (or three?)has been disenfranchised, murdered, hung from trees, systematically locked up, redlined, profiled, etc, etc since this country's inception, allllll under the guise of how people that likely look like you, "feel" about us and yourselves. Not facts. And you have the gall to call it new.
Michigan football being "persecuted" is your frame of reference for this "I feel this way so it must be true" phenomenon in Amerikkka? Pathetic.
Newsflash:The privilege that you enjoy everyday can almost completely be attributed to these "feelings" that you're just now noticing. Foh
October 20th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
Lol, what an ignorant post.
Listen, son, take your politics elsewhere.
October 20th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^
Oh Gawd, thank you so much for the education. Sigh. Please continue posting more and inserting your political worldview into the conversation.
October 20th, 2023 at 2:28 PM ^
They aren't famous because they're exceptions.
They're famous b/c of the how universally clear it now is that real evidence for those things didn't exist.
That consensus is rare, b/c of what we've come to understand about human beliefs relate to facts and feelings.
On average, people tend to retain their beliefs in spite of any disproving facts, precisely because the commitment to feelings is stronger than the commitment to facts. That's not an exception, it's how human brains work.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
Benghazi hearings, Steele Dossier, etc. I could give more examples, but I'd be getting into politics. This is as fair and balanced as I can get.
I read a quote the other day that no one remembers the projects you worked on, but they remember how they felt working with you. The same goes for projects you're currently working on. People actually do care about the results, but the credit and power goes to the haircut executives who maintain a pleasant disposition / executive presence. It doesn't matter how dim or incompetent they are, as long as they are pleasant and nonplussed they fail upwards. This is Warde. The uber-competent guy who gets sh*t done, but rubs people the wrong way gets punished. This is Harbaugh.
Harbaugh garantees a win over OSU. Harbaugh punches Jim Kelly in the mouth. Harbaugh runs satellite camps in SEC territory. Harbaugh climbs trees. ...and he does it all in the open. I love all of that but the haircuts of the world hate it.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
Dantonio always seems to have something up his sleeve. Or do we think it was a coincidence this comes out the week of MSU game.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
I knew exactly what you were referring to.
October 20th, 2023 at 7:06 AM ^
And the useless title? It could have at very least been more informative
Don't be that guy. I say that as someone who has been that guy sometimes.
Given the obvious context, it's clear what the thread is about.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:18 AM ^
He's a Marine..... hyper-aggressive is assumed.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:12 AM ^
Ooh Rah! Go get 'em Devil Dog!
October 20th, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
One low-level morally bankrupt staffer and a whole lot of blind eyes is all it takes to become the Houston Astros.
Vacating wins would be the inevitable outcome because this is not pro sports where all such scandals are swept under the rug.
But, we don't know how this is going to play out and all doomsdayers and unapologetic homers know as much about this as a ham sandwich.
Calm down. Carry on. And let this play out before arriving to any well-informed and mature conclusion.
October 20th, 2023 at 3:20 PM ^
So when you call Conner Stalions “one low-level morally bankrupt guy,” is that you letting it play out?
October 20th, 2023 at 4:59 AM ^
From the ESPN piece:
"Around Michigan's football building, Stalions is known to technically work in the recruiting department under director of recruiting Albert Karschnia. But a source said it was known in the building that he spent much of his time deciphering opponents' signals, often watching television copies of opponents' games. On Stalions' Instagram page, there are photos of him on the sideline next to two of Michigan's former defensive playcallers, Don Brown and Mike Macdonald.
The alleged signal stealing came from watching TV copies of the game? Maybe he sees something or hears something that is not on my TV copy but almost every play I see has, at most, the QB looking toward the sidelines and you cannot hear any audible sounds from the sidelines over the din from the crowd and the comments of announcers.
Of course the University will fall on its sword. If this is pure bullshit they ought to be suing the NCAA for the leak and the party who made the allegation for defamation.
October 20th, 2023 at 7:50 AM ^
Most plays they don't show the play-caller, but my guess is we would all be surprised just how many shots there are of the play caller, specifically on offense. Before key-plays, there's often a shot of the head coach or play caller in which there's a decent chance you'll catch some of the signals going in. We're not generally looking for the signaler, so we may simply not notice how often they're visible. It probably doesn't take that many shots of a signaler to at least get a head start in your gameday deciphering.
This is all really stupid. Everyone uses some sort of code to send in their plays. If your system isn't robust enough to change it up from half to half or at least game to game, that's on you.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:25 AM ^
This comment most likely nailed it spot on. What is described absolutely is something on almost every television shot, and almost no one is looking for it, so no one realizes it's there. Good on him for finding it. And doing it completely within the rules. If this is truly all about watching what's literally on the TV broadcasts, and they are trying to put this within the onsite advanced scouting rule, then... wow.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^
If this is what the allegations are alluding to, and this "vast network" equates nothing more than a few other people not associated with the football program watching games without recording equipment, than what are we actually talking about?
This is absolutely an outright hit job by opponents to drum up absurd reasoning why UM is playing so well and makes them come off scared.
I hope the tables get turned in some ways and the NCAA takes a moment looking at those making the accusations (they won't) to make sure they're not doing something similar a la The Bobs from Office Space...
October 20th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
link to preorder?
October 20th, 2023 at 2:24 PM ^
I want one, fatguy sized XXL please.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:27 AM ^
I see way too many QBs with play sheets in an arm band sort of thing...why would it be so hard to just use a different one every quarter, half or series even? Change the order of the plays on the sheet, send in a code that corresponds to that version of the sheet.
It's not brain science or rocket surgery fergodsakes.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:58 AM ^
I'd guess there's an efficiency factor for the process that prevents changing things too often. Seconds matter when getting a play in, so likely the play caller and the signaler have a strong familiarity, if not outright memorization, of the play sheet. The more versions they use, the more preparation has to be given to simply getting the plays in.
That said, there should be enough robustness in your coding system that any opponent work from previous games should at best give a minimal head start to the gameday sign stealing operations.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:10 AM ^
Everybody remembers what became a legendary play by Cam Newton vs Clay Matthews and the Packers, the "you've been watching film, huh? That's cool, watch this." *Throws TD*
The whole reason that play is legendary is because Matthews had picked up on the Panthers signs from previous film (which is his right to do) but Carolina, realizing this possibility, changes their signs from game to game.
All of that is fair play. It's interesting to me that so many of these headlines coming out are focused on sign stealing, almost as if there is an intent to creative some sort of narrative that Michigan acted nefariously. Sports fans are well aware of what happened with the Astros, so "sign stealing" sounds scandalous, so it's the headline.
But so far at least, not one article has presented any real fact about exactly what rule Michigan has broken.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:11 AM ^
Yeah plus you don't need to know every signal. If you figure even 1 or 2, you have a huge advantage.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:57 AM ^
Where has GhostofJermaineGonzales been lately?
We know he's very close with Albert Karschina (that's where he gets all his info).
I know people are annoyed with his shtick, but if he actually chimed in here, it could be interesting.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
I'm pretty sure the mods here banned him a month or two ago. If I remember right, it's because he ends all his comments with "cheers" and the mods said that was too celebratory on a post about the Mel Tucker stuff. Or some other stupid reason
October 20th, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
What is weird is it said he was hired in May 22 AFTER he retired as Captain. Both MacDonald and Brown weren’t on the staff together or in 22 and he would’ve been still enlisted before so how was he on the sideline with those guys?
October 20th, 2023 at 10:32 AM ^
he was a volunteer assistant from 2015-2020
October 20th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
He was an unpaid volunteer at that time.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
If there are grounds for a case I think Michigan should sue the NCAA and put them in their place. Michigan is football. How much is the University worth? $100 billion? Sounds like a good amount to sue for.
October 20th, 2023 at 10:36 AM ^
I don't think Michigan will, but Harbaugh might. I would if I were him, just to get to the discovery phase. That could be juicy.
October 20th, 2023 at 7:37 AM ^
This is 100% Matt Dudek sour grapes again. Dudek (Michigans former Director of Recruiting who was fired in 2021) was the NCAA’s source for the cheeseburger-gate stuff. All the points line up here again if you read the ESPN article.
(1) the analyst (Stalions) who is at the center of this works in the recruiting department.
(2) NCAA says violations being investigated date back to 2021 when Dudek was still on staff
the NCAA doesn’t come up with things on its own any more. Informants have to hand feed them their dirt. No way this info exists without someone who is or was inside giving to the NCAA.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:09 AM ^
Dudek needs a ride to the cornfield Casino style.
October 20th, 2023 at 8:45 AM ^
Take the cannoli, leave the gun.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
There has to be some internal source. Complaints just came up then all of a sudden the NCAA (who somehow can't find wrongdoing at schools caught on FBI wire taps) zeroes in on some obscure staffer within days? 100% they were tipped off by someone on exactly who to look at.
In other fun news, ESPN already has ANOTHER article up about this, speculating out the ass about possible punishments.
"The retroactive vacation of wins is always possible in major infractions cases. Sources told ESPN that the NCAA is investigating allegations that stem from before the 2023 season, so impacted games that Michigan won could be vacated. Other possible penalties include postseason bans, scholarship reductions, fines and coaching restrictions (game suspensions and off-campus recruiting privileges) for those who are implicated."
Which will be followed by "reporting" of smaller sites saying something like "ESPN reports Michigan facing vacating wins from multiple seasons as a result of sign stealing investigation." This is the biggest pile of BS ever.
October 20th, 2023 at 9:10 AM ^
Hi-ya Rat!
