Dumb Question RE: Offensive Line Strategy
I was watching one of our games this year with my MGoWife (very, very grateful that I've got a wife who is reasonably into college football), and I was talking to her about how our pass protection struggled so much on OL. In particular, I pointed out JBB and how he was such a dichotomous guy w/ his skill set--awesome road grader in the run game, but terrible at pass protection.
Then my MGoWife laid a question on me that I didn't know how to answer.
Her question: "If certain offensive linemen are terrible at pass protection, why don't we just swap them out during obvious passing downs?"
I was never a football X's and O's or player/coach type growing up, so I'm at a loss for the answer. I assume there IS one, since by now you'd think that if it was in fact a viable strategy, it'd be common practice among teams to do it. We rotate DL all the time & swap different personnel on the defense & offense depending on distance/down/matchup situations.
So why don't we do it on the O-Line?
The element of surprise is no longer needed, and if it's clear the defense is bringing the house, why not insert other guys in place of JBB (or any other guys who aren't good at pass pro/stunt/bliz pick-ups)?
Anyway, seemed like a pretty fair question that my MGoWife had, but one I didn't really have a good answer for since I just didn't grow up with great knowledge of the sport.
Can the more knowledgeable posters on the board break it down for me?
December 12th, 2017 at 3:21 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 3:25 PM ^
Answer may be something coaches should re-evaluate, instead of assuming that common-place is correct, but here it is none-the-less.
OL is predicated largely on chemistry. It's about knowing what the guy next to you is supposed to do, and just as importantly, trusting that guy to do that job. It's about communication. It's about understanding the way the guy next to you does things, the unspoken communication and techniques, if you will.
There are a limited number of reps per practice. You have a limited number of time to develop those things. It's in large part why coaches are reluctant to even switch out guys drive-to-drive, let alone play-to-play. Every other position besides QB will basically see a rotation, yet OL does not. Some may even go to the extreme and occasionally rotate a QB for known pass downs, but it's rare.
At the end of the day, you want that chemistry, and you want it to improve as much as possible to improve as much as a unit. No team wants to tip their hand at any position, even if some players can do that to a degree. And maybe in the short term, a rotation could be beneficial, but in the long term it becomes even more unlikely.
Also, there doesn't tend to be a guy that is "a great pass blocker" but a poor run blocker. While OL can be better at certain aspects than others, it's rare they are drastically better in one and weaker in another, and then have another guy that's weaker in the first area but a strength in the other.
So typically it's easier and more coherent to have a single unit. At the end of the day, it's likely too expensive to do it a different way, which is why coaches don't. But hey, maybe it needs to be reevaluated.
December 12th, 2017 at 3:57 PM ^
Exactly this, but for a greater indepth on one point to this, it is very non-typical to see a guy that is a great pass blocker and so bad at run blocking it takes him out of the starting line up. Typically, at least for tackles, if the guy is heads above the other possible starters at pass blocking (enough so you would want to switch them out on obvious pass downs) that player is starting even if they are not as good of run blocker.
December 12th, 2017 at 4:00 PM ^
Great summary SC. The Oline is the hardest unit to develop bar none...years of investment are required. We're probably looking at 2019-2020 seasons for a top notch group.
December 12th, 2017 at 4:33 PM ^
that an "obvious passing situation" does not automatically mean "dropback pass". The starting OL might be better at screens (where chemistry is vital), plays where the pocket moves (sprint, boot), and trick plays--all viable 3rd and long plays.
Secondly, and more to the "limited reps" point, you are going to have to spend time teaching the starting OL how to pass pro because you are going to have some dropback passes on 1st and 2nd down--non-obvious passing situations. Knowing that, how many reps can you get the backup knowing that you can't steal those reps from the starter?
December 12th, 2017 at 5:27 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 7:56 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 3:31 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 3:33 PM ^
Offensive tackles have to be athletic, like a heavy weight tight end but heavier. Our incoming 18 tackles seem to fit the bill and could help in the Pass Pro sector. Defensive Ends in college football are freaks now with line backer speed with more size.....need to match up an athlete with an athlete....especially on the QBs blind side. More footwork drills in the off season.
December 12th, 2017 at 5:06 PM ^
about all of these 18 tackles we're bringing in. Hayes and Mayfield are in for some serious competition, not to mention the oversigning violation for the '18 recruiting cycle.
I keed, I keed.
December 12th, 2017 at 3:34 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 4:01 PM ^
Curious to know what it cost you to turn a hot buckeye into a wolverine.
Loss of man-cave? Friday night opera once a month for life? Moving to Ohio?
December 12th, 2017 at 4:30 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 3:36 PM ^
Welcome. Dumb questions are a theme today. Not that you are dumb. Just the questions.
December 12th, 2017 at 3:40 PM ^
is this is easily a top 5 thread of the day.
December 12th, 2017 at 3:40 PM ^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwQnLEc5c3c
But more generally, it's their strategy to push people
December 12th, 2017 at 3:42 PM ^
I don't see this as a dumb question. Defenses bring in pass rush specialists on third & long--how would the offense subbing in a pass protection specialist be any different?
December 12th, 2017 at 3:47 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 4:18 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 4:22 PM ^
1. Had there been a player that was a significant upgrade as a pass blocker, he probably would have played. Chances are, there wasn't and that's why there was no rotation. Chemistry is also important.
2. Predictability. Just like how teams knew basically what was going to happen, if we brought in a separate pass blocking tackle it would give away what was going to be run. Not just in obvious passing situations, but it essentially lets teams know it's a scenario in which the QB will need 3-4 seconds to pass, and can allow more cushion since they don't have to guard the screen/slant/draw.
December 12th, 2017 at 6:19 PM ^
Actually, Draws and Screens are run in obvious passing situations- that's the idea, and for the first couple of seconds, they look like passes.* But then, they go attack LBers, which requires more mobility, rather than road-grader size. In fact, 5-step drop passes require retreating (like punt protection) while quick throws don't require retreating, but attacking, or at least keeping defender's hands down.
*You will also see OTs simulate pass pro to draw the DE upfield to keep them out of the run play, on Traps or on the backside, for example.
December 12th, 2017 at 8:29 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 11:25 PM ^
I played offensive line in college and coach it. I'm aware. I wasn't talking about a prototypical RB screen, I was talking about a bubble midline that is predicated on the slot/flanker getting a block on the corner. Which is wayyyyyyyyyy harder when they're off the line playing a soft coverage.
December 12th, 2017 at 4:27 PM ^
I would like to see us rotate O linemen more, and maybe the strategy for that particular drive can be in part dictated by which linemen we have in.
Some schools rotate their O linemen more than we do. MSU rotates 8 guys in. Ohio State used to do so as well, and Alabama has done so to a lesser degree. And I mean more than just a series or two in ablowout, but I'd like to see us have 7 or 8 guys who get multiple series in each half. You have guys eligible to play for 4 seasons, might as well get them ready to play year after year.
December 12th, 2017 at 4:37 PM ^
In an extreme case, I could even see rotating guys in almost like a hockey line to keep the guys fresh. Not out of a necessity like the Big Mike situation, but in order to create an ADVANTAGE.
But as other guys have said, it looks like the trust/chemistry aspect is something that is paramount on the OL where it might not be as big of a deal in other areas of the field.
The other problem I'd see with that is OL is notoriously inefficient in terms of ID'ing talent & developing guys. So in order to have a solid rotation (assuming the chemistry issue was solved), you'd have to expend a huge # of scholarships to guarantee that you have enough viable Dudes to rotate into the O-Line in that manner.
Maybe those above schools are far more efficient at ID'ing & developing talent than we are, but I could see how even if that rotational system worked in theory, it's just too "expensive" in terms of scholarship #s to be worth whatever advantage it might bring you.
December 12th, 2017 at 6:30 PM ^
I like this idea, at least in theory.
December 12th, 2017 at 4:46 PM ^
Yeah no thanks. I’ll take a hard pass on that.
December 12th, 2017 at 5:18 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 5:32 PM ^
I think you could scheme around doing this (by added efficiency in the plays you run, and breaking tendencies just enough to keep them guessing)... the bigger issue is it seems Offensive Line seems to be built on working together and playing off of each other, constant substitutions stunts that.
December 12th, 2017 at 5:37 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 5:37 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 6:07 PM ^
I've wondered this myself- in obvious (as your wife mentioned) pass situations, 3rd & Medium or Long, maybe 2nd & Long- why not swap them out?
Offense and Defense have their own packaged on those situations already. Offenses often bring in a 3rd Down Back. There are some Draws and Screens in that package anyway to keep the defense honest. And you can always run a regular run play in that situation, just as you can always throw dropback passes occaisionally on 'Normal' downs to break the tendency.
If you have a lineman whose skills are better suited to that, bring him in, like you do with your Jumbo package on the Goal Line. I've always thought it might make even more sense in Two Minute Offense. After all, on punts you swap out the regular OL for more athletic guys who are asked to protect and then get down field. Special situations call for special adjustments. It's not like the individual OL would only learn pass protection or run blocking. But as obvious strengths and dificiencies present themselves, you can plug in the guys that give you the best chance of succes in a given situation.
Yeah, there's the 'chemistry' and 'cohesion' argument, and it might make more of a difference if it's the QB or Center you're talking about. But otherwise pass protection and long yardage situations (and especially the blitzes and coverages the defense calls) are their own thing anyway, so I think the downside would be minimal.
December 12th, 2017 at 6:04 PM ^
It's pretty hard to come in cold as an OL and pass block against the opposing teams's most athletic players knowing it's a pass rush situation
December 12th, 2017 at 8:38 PM ^
I can't believe I had to scroll all the way down to comment #76 for a) a decent answer and b) an answer that didn't ignore a huge chunk of the OP's post.
To add on to your point, you might be bring in a cold offensive lineman, but also you're bringing in a guy who hasn't been out there listening to the defense's calls, maybe isn't in sync with the rest of the offensive line, doesn't have a feel for the game/cadence, etc.
Aside from QB, offensive line is the toughest position to play from a mental standpoint. You need to have a grasp on what the other four guys are doing on the OL, where the QB is setting up, whether you have a help coming in the form of a RB/TE, etc., *and* you have to understand the defensive fronts and what they're attempting to do. You need to get the offensive linemen as many reps as possible working together.
December 12th, 2017 at 6:22 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 7:24 PM ^
I understand what you are saying. But it's not like we're talking about putting in total strangers. They are all there at practice, working together. These guys do rotate quite a bit in practice, with at leasty the first 7 or 8 going in different combinations. There is a separate Run period in practice. Pass protection for OTs involves some time working 1on1, anyway. Blitz Pickup is typically a separate practice period by itself, and 3rd Down involves a whole set of blitz packages, that are scouted and game-plannned for.
December 12th, 2017 at 6:22 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 6:23 PM ^
is a nice example of a good post.
- Sucinct and well organized
- minimal gramatical errors ('I've got' is redundent, just 'I've' or 'I have' is best)
- Sets up a knowledge rich thread
Thank you!
December 12th, 2017 at 7:19 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 7:31 PM ^
December 12th, 2017 at 8:28 PM ^
I think that was an excellent question from the lady friend. That means she has been watching the game and the subbing at other positions(most of the D, RB & WR).
My opinion is the O line is a special animal. I played D line in DII so my O line days are from high school in the 70's. The O line is more working together and coordination that other postions on the field. I am having trouble explaining it any better than that.
The D lines sub heavy these days. Each player has assignments, but it is a little more of going all out every play, get to the ball or spot, high effort/high motor play. The O line requires more discipline.
JBB and pass protection - I haven't watched film or watched close enough. I wonder if his techique still needs work or if he is not athletic enough on the edge. He may be better suited at guard, but we don't need guards like we need tackles. .
December 12th, 2017 at 9:04 PM ^
We played Runyan the last 2 drives of the OSU game which was an obvious passing situation. I haven't heard it discussed, but I'm assuming this was because Runyan is a better pass blocker.
December 12th, 2017 at 10:05 PM ^
The second-to-last drive wasn't necessarily an obvious pass situation. We had 2:47 to go and two timeouts.
December 12th, 2017 at 10:42 PM ^
Well, like, DUH! Uh, er, ummmm, hmm...great question.
December 13th, 2017 at 12:01 AM ^
from what I understand... which given is limited. It just seems that rotating players in and out of the OL would be problematic.
Also, have to be careful with substitutions that tip off the other team.
December 13th, 2017 at 1:12 AM ^
Coaches make it a practice not to tell the defense what they'll be runnng. Same goes for the defense too.
December 13th, 2017 at 4:41 PM ^
December 13th, 2017 at 4:41 PM ^