Did we really need a new offensive scheme?
Or did we just need a better playcaller like a Jeff Fischer?
We have linemen that are built for a pro style approach. We have TEs and FBs galore. Wisconsin has no problem winning with their offense.
We had an old Mustang that needed repairs and we traded it for a new Honda Civic.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:08 PM ^
Wisconsin has had the same problems as we have had. If they could physically dominate teams they won, when they faced teams with equal athletes, they lost.
The difference between us and them is they are very content with this situation.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:21 PM ^
Harbaugh is not a stubborn coach. He listened to his players after 2017 and completely refocused the strength/conditioning/nutrition programs. His offense wasn't good enough after 4 years, and he brought in an outside voice, an up and coming talent, to call plays. It hasn't worked yet, after 3 games. Harbaugh isn't happy with the status quo. Can the fans withstand a setback as he tries to lift the program to the next level? Idk. This sounds like a good first step back from the debacle last weekend:
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:24 PM ^
Thanks for sharing that...a good first step, hopefully, in a series of steps to correct this backward trend we've seen from the program.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:32 PM ^
Was he not mad after OSU? Florida? Army? I just don't get how it would take Wisconsin to tip the scales.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:44 PM ^
Well, I think for them and us as a fan base this game demonstrated mediocrity with no excuse. OSU game last year you could look at the entire season up to that game and say that was a very good Michigan team. Florida, obviously not everyone was playing in that game and quite honestly it was a conciliatory event that we didn’t want to be at. Army this year was a scare, but there was hope they would turn it around as it was early. This, however, was a butt whooping that plainly demonstrated not only are we not a very good team, but that we lack discipline and mental toughness.
I think Harbaugh’s comments today left no room for interpretation. He is P.O.’d and takes full responsibility. I think he did a great job when he first got here of setting the expectation for the team and making everyday a competition, and that every detail in practice was going to be recorded. I wonder if they got away from that type environment the last 2-3 years and if it will be reinstated.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^
I like a team that TRIES to WIN their bowl game. You know what's worse than the PEACH BOWL?........ Losing the PEACH BOWL!!! WTF with the excuses?
Guys need to play harder. Make blocks and tackles. Don't fumble when we are going to score. Or you won't be playing.
UM needs to pull up jock straps and get tough and give MAX EFFORT, not MIN.
September 23rd, 2019 at 6:12 PM ^
I hope you realize the irony of your username with this comment.
September 23rd, 2019 at 7:15 PM ^
Not sure why your getting negged, it’s probably the guys that say the kids shouldn’t risk the potential earnings. IMO if you commit to something you see it through, that used to be called integrity. Not sure what the kids call it now.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:49 PM ^
Harbaugh attempted to make positive changes after OSU/Florida last year. This place bagged on Harbaugh all weekend/this morning for not having enough passion anymore, or moping through the post game press conference, or whatever they want to say to badmouth the man.
The reports are that he came out today with a clear message of accountability and isn't afraid to shoulder the responsibility. I believe this game will stir some change, much like the 2017 season led to change, much like the end of the 2018 season led to change.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:37 PM ^
So they're mad for real this time huh? They weren't mad after Army nearly beat them, or OSU pasted them last year, but now they finally are. Yeah.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:32 PM ^
Yeah, however the offense was good enough under Fisch. It was the Deboardian play calling under Pep that was the problem. Threw out the baby with the bath water in my view because now wwe have a confused mess.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:48 PM ^
I think this had been his demise.....listening to the fans, to the critics.
I liked the no hugs, asshole Jim more than Uncle Fluffy!
I still have a ton of faith in our coach!
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:35 PM ^
I've seen this reasoning a number of times and I think it hits the nail on the head. If there's one thing I've learned as a Michigan fan it's that we are a fanbase that refuses to accept mediocrity. There are plenty of schools that would kill for 8 or 9 wins every year. Michigan fans will never be okay with that.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:39 PM ^
The difference between us and them is they are very content with this situation.
The difference between us and them is they are in the west and only play OSU and PSU once in a while while we play them every year. They can win their division. UM can't. Wiscy is 0-9 against OSU and PSU since 2012.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:24 PM ^
From 2011-2013 Wisconsin, PSU, and OSU were in the opposite division as us (Albeit we had a protected crossover with OSU). What did we do with that divisional alignment? Jack squat.
September 24th, 2019 at 8:10 AM ^
What did we do with that divisional alignment?
We beat OSU and won 11 games.
September 24th, 2019 at 10:13 AM ^
And yet.... MSU still played in Indy
September 23rd, 2019 at 3:29 PM ^
The other difference between us and them, at the moment, is that they just dominated us physically.
September 23rd, 2019 at 7:04 PM ^
Yes, the offense needed to evolve, that isn’t even a question. The problem is evolution starts on the recruiting trail. You don’t take a 2 tight end + FB offense and give BS buzzwords like speed in space and think it’s going to work. UM doesn’t have the athletes to be a run that type of offense, even at receiver. You need to have an elite two deep at receiver and speed in the slot that isn’t on this roster. Until you get there you play to your strengths, and while that does mean using the receivers more, that isn’t speed in space, you can’t do it with this OLine and you can’t do it with the QB play that’s been on display this year
Forget the offense for a minute and remember that games are won by those who control the LOS. The OLine is lacking and the Dline is worse. The schemes on both sides of the ball have been bad and lacked execution, but even the best game plan would have resulted in WI destroying the Dline and scoring almost at will. It’s easy to see the A gap uncovered at the goal line and miss how they for there in the first place There were times throughout the game that I was sure Bill Davis was coaching with the way the LB were too close to the LOS to flow with the play. The OSU defense was horrid last year with great athletes. They are really good this year due to the same athletes in a good scheme. When you don’t have the athletes or the scheme it’s going to get bumpy
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:09 PM ^
Why did you feel this needed a new thread? Honest question cause it's been covered ad nauseum in 100 others.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
At the rate those 100 threads are getting buried, there’s no sense is going backwards. This is not an Eeyore shitpost that have clogged the board either. Serious question
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:10 PM ^
Maybe not hand the offensive reigns to a guy who has never called/game planned in his life. That's step one. Step two, have a coach who actually shows he wants to win. That trickles down to his players. Step three, profit.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:10 PM ^
*Jedd Fisch
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:17 PM ^
Can't believe this wasn't the first comment.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:39 PM ^
No, Jeff Fisher, the LA Rams and Titans old coach.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
Who the fuck is Jeff Fischer? Love child of Jeff Fisher and Jedd Fisch?
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
Great thread from a great poster.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
Your brother (by another mother) was robbed in Game of Thrones.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
C'mon WD, you have to jump on the snowflake thread train too?
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^
Does it really take a wall of text, a sh*t load of obfuscation, and run-on sentences ad nauseam to come to a simple conclusion that the Offense is "the suck" (technical term), and the defense has taken a step back?
I love reading artful writing, but if I wanted to do that I'd pick up some Pasternak and revel in how many ways he can tell me snow is white and cold.
I think most of the "hot takes" on here are because some of the regulars have to flex their creative writing muscle to somehow prove their intelligence.
Dichotomy... is using the cultural colloquialism "snowflake" as an insult, when writing in regards to a University Football team that represents a student body that's packet to the rafters with them.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
We needed to get the snap off way quicker... run way more plays... Harbaugh and Pep just refused to do so... if we got down in a game, we couldn't score quick enough, and it precipitated the movement to Gattis.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^
Do you have to run a spread to play uptempo?
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:03 PM ^
No.
The idea that Pep was the sole problem was always preposterous. Michigan had, until Gattis game, an OC-by-committee approach, and there are legitimate reasons to believe that Harbaugh took a hand in play selection in the Army game (I do not have any desire to drill down into playcalling against Wisconsin this week, though the pass was significantly emphasized). Last year when Michigan's offense was run-run-pass people got on Pep for it and I said that there was no way that Harbaugh was asking for more passing and getting overruled by Pep.
What Michigan needed was not a new offensive scheme so much as a willingness to adapt philosophically to take every advantage available to them. One of the reasons the Harbaughffense was attractive in 15 and 16 is that even though Harbaugh was using TEs and FBs, he was exploiting holes in defenses in certain areas.
But not all areas. The huddle-up philosophy is a good example of failing to take advantage of available tools to exploit defenses. All tempo offenses are quite capable of standing around and waiting until there are less than 5 seconds on the playclock when they want to bleed time, but they area also capable of taking advantages of mismatches and confusion to exploit defenses for free plays. Michigan simply left that stuff on the table prior to Gattis (and hasn't really taken advantage of it with him, either). And Michigan's lack of refinement in tempo hurt the offense in 2-minute drill situations where quick play execution was a departure from "normal."
This is in no way dissimilar to the stubbornness of Al Borges with regard to smoke screen passes to WRs with large cushions. Leaving yards on the field.
It's not that Michigan needed a new offense, but the old offensive coaching system wasn't working. Michigan has boatloads of talent on offense right now. BOATLOADS. Nico, Tarik, DPJ, Bell, probably some good slot receivers. Charbonnet is a good RB, and we have other guys who can get the job done. We have a 5-star QB and a high 4-star (currently concussed) backing him up. The entire interior OL will get drafted, and our periodically injured LT was all-B1G last year.
There was no excuse for Michigan being so slow-starting on offense last year and absolutely zero reason that they can't be a top ten offense this year.
But here we are.
The one common denominator is Harbaugh.
Look at this play.
Obviously, that was Shea Patterson. But it could easily have been Wilton Speight. Or John O'Korn. Hesitant reads. Lack of confidence in their throws. A persistent reduction in pocket confidence.
Jim Harbaugh is not a QB guru.
Andrew Luck did just fine at Stanford after Harbaugh left. Colin Kaepernick got progressively worse as a passer after his surprisingly good start. Jake Rudock, a transfer, had a good half season.
One could argue that Wilton Speight and John O'Korn were not Harbaugh's first-choice players. But Brandon Peters was, and he wasn't ready in 2017 and got no better in his time at Michigan. He's got his guys in McCaffrey and Milton, and they can't beat Shea. And Shea, a 5-star transfer, can't make the plays that are there.
It's Harbaugh. The schemes aren't the problem. The HC is. It's not time to fire him, he has put decent teams on the field. But never elite.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:58 PM ^
I too question his "QB guru" status, but honestly I'm wondering more wtf is wrong with Shea than wtf did Harbaugh do to Shea. You shouldn't need a "QB guru" to teach you to THROW IT TO YOUR #1 RECEIVER WHO IS OPEN BY A BAJILLION YARDS.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
We did need a new offense. It’s the way the game has gone. If we had a better offense in 2016 and/or 2018 we have at least one playoff under our belt. Tresselball wasn’t getting it done. The decision to switch was correct. The way we implemented said change was a disaster.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
If by that you mean “forcing the new OC to run RPO looks without allowing him to play slot receivers who aren’t TEs” I agree.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:45 PM ^
jbrandimore- Spot on! Gattis is trying to implement a new offense with one hand tied behind his back! Its like telling someone to fix a car engine but making them use the wrong tools.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:12 PM ^
Do you mean Jedd Fisch?
We did need to join the new millenium, and we needed to be more vertical to take advantage of the WR and the ability to play faster if we were playing from behind.
We also need to let Warinner do his thing. The staff needs to get aligned on who they are as a collective and how they become a cohesive unit.
Brown also didn't need to entirely shake up the D. Just adjust it a little for game 12.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^
On defense, if Wisconsin can play their ~1300 ranked true freshman and he can be fine, what the hell is the excuse for not having Hinton and Smith out there?
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:12 PM ^
Yes, we did. Just because Gattis is failing doesn't mean our prior scheme was fine. We got shut down every time we faced a good defense. There's a reason all four teams in the playoffs last year were no-huddle spread teams. Also, our OL is built just as well for a power spread as it is for a "pro-style" offense.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:59 PM ^
Our OL is clearly overrated... we’re not built for much of anything right now. Patterson has been gawd awful, but he didn’t have much time Saturday. I am by no means defending Patterson and his crappy decision making, but our OL did him no favors. Think back to Army, what did we have 3YPC on the ground? Undersized Army stuffed us at the LOS all day long, maybe it scheme too but to me that’s on the OL.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:14 PM ^
Yeah, some people drive the Mustang. Many drive the Civic. The problem is not the vehicle, it's the driver (and passengers in this analogy). I suppose if you hire a Honda Civic driver who has never driven a Mustang, he's gonna bring his Civic with him.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:15 PM ^
This is my question: Does a pro-style offense prevent you from playing quickly?
Does it prevent you from passing to the most talented players on your team?
That was the issue with the offense I had last year: Why are the most talented parts of the team not being utilized the most? That's all that had to be solved.
Why does Michigan have to take a timeout on 1st and goal from the seven when Wisconsin is on their heels? Why isn't the ball being snapped before they are even ready to defend the next play? Why is Michigan handing the ball off to a guy who hasn't taken a hand off all season on the road when they need to score? That just screamed McKeon hand off in 2017 against South Carolina.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:15 PM ^
Jeff Fischer? I think you mean Jedd Fisch.
The majority of this board was calling for a more modern offense and now that we have it, after 3 games the majority of this board is ready to go back to the old, pro style, manball.
The majority of this board was calling for Ben Mason to get some run at tailback in short yardage. Now that is happened and he fumbled, that same majority is yelling about how it was an awful idea to have your DT running the ball.
The love for Jedd Fisch around here is weird and largely created off of the gif "Good Shit Jedd".
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^
Exactly and the board is so impatient, they are ready to fire the coach that went 8-1 in the cobference last year because we have a slow start with said new offense and lost a road game to a top 15 team.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:26 PM ^
2nd and goal from the 7 is short yardage?
You on the same pill regime as Harbaugh?
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:22 PM ^
He was in there on first and goal as well when Shea over threw and RPO. It was a goal to go package, obviously. If you fail to realize that then that is on you.
September 23rd, 2019 at 1:48 PM ^
Why did the offense turn into a tire fire as soon as Fisch left then? We went 11 games between 2017 and 2018 without a touchdown pass to a wide receiver. We still couldn't get Collins, Black, and DPJ the ball last year....120 receptions between them all? Braylon had that nearly by himself his last year.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:12 PM ^
We should get playmakers the ball; speed in space and all that. However, I'm not sure your comparison between DPJ, Collins, and Black vs. Edwards is fair. It seems that last year Patterson spread the ball out more than Henne did in 2004. Patterson completed 210 passes for 2600 yards. Henne completed 240 passes for 2743. 143 additional passing yards, but 1.1 ypa less than Patterson. However, I would take Henne's awareness and pocket presence over Patterson's any day.
September 23rd, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^
Our offense has gone as the QB has gone regardless of the play caller. Speight was pretty good in 2016 until Iowa. Then he fell off a cliff and our offense followed suit. In 2017, Speight continued his free fall. O'Korn had a solid game against Purdue and then fell off the same cliff Speight had already jumped from. And the offense was dumbed down for Peters.
Shea did pretty good (like Speight) last year between Notre Dame and Ohio State. And our offense was a top 20 unit during that span. This year, Shea has seeming regressed and is not going through his progressions at all and is bugging out of the pocket way too soon.