WTKA Roundtable 12/8/2022: Old Man Yells at Cloud Comment Count

Seth December 8th, 2022 at 10:27 AM

Things discussed:

  • Purdue: Very prepared for Michigan, Michigan adjusted well to deliver their RB to the free hitter with space for Edwards to make something happen.
  • Think Michigan came in battered, wanted to keep JJ healthy. He was dealing!
  • O'Connell had a great game, Chuck Sizzle had a great game, Michigan has some zone issues to clean up with Moten and their LBs.
  • College football postseason: Seth wants the NCAA to have different options for the season: When you have 2 teams, have the 2 teams play, when you have 4 worthy have a 4-team playoff, when 6 have six, when it's 1 play the bowl games. Ideally: 12-team playoffs AFTER bowl games. They ruined the bowls.
  • Cade and All: Weird that McNamara is burning perfectly good bridges unnecessarily. As for All, what's Michigan supposed to do if he went and got surgery from Dr. Nick against their doctors' advice? They still paid for it, hard to hold them responsible. Seth suggests this might mean All's injury was more career-debilitating than anyone wants to let on. Cade isn't being gracious, but who cares? So we won't root for him at Iowa anymore; we all know what happened: JJ McCarthy happened.
  • Breakdown of the trick play: Purdue saw what Michigan was doing but doubled the trick guy and left another TE open.
  • Big Ten West: Matt Rhule's recruited Texas which is the way to win at Nebraska, Wisconsin should do well with Fickell, those are the teams that are usually stronger. Purdue losing Brohm is a big deal.
  • Basketball: Losing Frankie just sucks and for no good reason, now they have to try Bufkin there and see if they can get Barnes to play the two.
  • Hockey: Recruiting is bonkers again, time to give Brandon Naurato the job.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

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Comments

skatin@the_palace

December 8th, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^

I share Seth’s stance on the playoff. The 12 team format is going to suck just like the 4 team will. CFB is not the NFL, there isn’t a salary cap and essentially no structure beyond the scholarship limit. Bowls are imperfect and are reflective of the 130 (maybe 131, can’t recall) different programs in D1. Trying to shoehorn more playoff games in is gross and not in the spirit of the chaos of the sport. 

Wallaby Court

December 8th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^

I disagree. College sports are at their best with layers of success that give both historically good and bad teams a preseason target and postseason accomplishment. I hope that a 12-team playoff will restore some of layers destroyed by the 4 team playoff and the unrestricted addition of bowl games. Before the 4-team playoff, bowl games felt like accomplishments. For lower tier teams, making any bowl game could represent a successful season. For higher tier teams, your goal shifted from making any bowl to getting an invite to one of the New Year's Six bowls.

The explosion of mid- and bottom-tier bowls made bowl invites too easy to scoop up. And the 4-team playoff destroyed the cache associated with the most prestigious bowl games. The combined effect leaves too many teams with too little to play for. The 2022 season has more than 40 bowl games. That means at least 80 of 141 FBS schools can go to a bowl. On the other end of the spectrum, only four teams can make the playoff. Before, 12 teams could play in New Year's Six bowls. Because nothing distinguishes the New Year's Six bowls from the other bowls, the playoffs became the top tier of success. But college football's systemic imbalances leave very few teams with realistic access to that tier. In my opinion, the oversaturation of bowl games and inaccessibility of the playoff created college football's current malaise. Almost no one misses a bowl. Almost no one can tell the difference between the bowls. Almost no one can go to the playoff. If you are a Michigan (or Wisconsin, or Auburn) fan, what is the difference between going 7-5 with an invite to the Citrus Bowl in Orlando, FL and 10-2 with an invite to the Orange Bowl in Miami, FL?

My hope and expectation is that expanding the playoff to 12 teams will fix the top end success problems. Because more teams will have realistic access to the playoffs, more teams will have something to look forward to and play for over the course of a season. In addition, the benefits of seeding and byes will still give the juggernauts a reason to care about the regular season. In other words, a 12-team playoff re-establishes multiple accessible tiers of success:

  1. Make the playoff;
  2. Get a higher seed;
  3. Win a first round game and make the round of eight;
  4. Get a bye;
  5. Win a second round game and make the round of four;
  6. Make the semifinals;
  7. Make the finals; and
  8. Win it all.

Of course, the 12-team playoff does not fix the other postseason problems. That would require some system to reestablish a bowl game hierarchy or a substantial reduction in the number of bowl games.

dragonchild

December 8th, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^

The part that gets me is that college teams are gonna be playing up to 16 games.  This isn't like baseball where you can play into your 40s if you're smart about it.  The thought of a young running back taking 16 games' worth of beatings with only NIL and a scholarship as compensation. . . am I the only one bothered by this?

Wallaby Court

December 8th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^

No. I came to the same conclusion when I was laying out my "tiers of success" and actually realized that a 12-team playoff would have 4 rounds. That's an extra third of a regular season. Even a totally undefeated champion could end up playing 16 games between a 12-game regular season, a conference championship, and 3 playoff rounds.

gbdub

December 8th, 2022 at 2:24 PM ^

I’m not shoving shit in your mouth - you’re the one implying the rest of us are callous for not being bothered.

Similar players are already playing a similar number of games at the FCS level, and if there is any evidence that this is causing them significantly more harm I’m not aware of it. 

As far as “lifetime wear and tear” the number of extra games being played is smaller than the natural variability in games played from player to player over a career (some freshmen start, some don’t, some play 3 years, some play 5 or 6). Some will go to the NFL, most won’t.

Bottom line we’re talking about a few extra practices and at most 2 extra games per year compared to the traditional regular season plus bowl game schedule. The vast majority of FBS level players won’t be affected at all, some might play 2 or 3 extra games, a tiny fraction might play at most half a dozen extra games over their college career. 

I absolutely agree that football is hard on the bodies of young men and that’s something that any fan should be cognizant of. But I don’t think the difference between playing 55 games in a college career instead of 52 is enough of a difference to be “bothered” by. 

 

dragonchild

December 8th, 2022 at 3:09 PM ^

It was valid to mention the FCS right up until the "have you stopped beating your wife" question.  I was the one who brought up wear-and-tear in this thread, in the context of the CFP, yet I'm apparently the bad guy for not mentioning this sooner.  In what. . . an OT thread?  Michigan isn't an FCS program.  When the fuck was I supposed to bring this up to pass the purity test?

The insinuation that not mentioning something before implies I'd never given it prior thought leads to the requirement that I have to write down everything I'm worried about to fend off these accusations.  You guys really want to go there?  No, no you don't.  I'd have to start my own blog and no one but an immensely bored lunatic would read such a text wall of neurotic, raging noise.  So this "b-b-but the FCS" is just disingenuous projection bullhockey.

gbdub

December 8th, 2022 at 4:47 PM ^

You don’t have to write down “everything” you worry about or pass a “purity test” to comment. 

But if you’re going to make an argument that I ought to be bothered by college kids playing more than 13 games in a season because they aren’t paid enough, you should at least acknowledge and address as part of that argument that college kids are already playing more than 13 games in a season, have been for a long time, and are getting paid even less or not at all. 

That’s hardly a red herring. It’s an equivalent and applicable example of the thing you are bothered by apparently not having the impact you say it will. 

Carcajou

December 8th, 2022 at 8:20 PM ^

Is 16 too many for 18-22 year olds?
I would tend to doubt that, especially if there are bye weeks and time before the post-season. (I do think any post-bowl game playoffs should not be played in consecutive weeks). I think it is the pressure and the wear and tear of playing consecutive weeks before the body has enough time to repair that is a factor.

Blue Middle

December 8th, 2022 at 1:12 PM ^

While I agree with most of the sentiment, I disagree with the solution.

I loved the old bowl seasons, but they were poor reflections on who the best team in the country was.

The genie is out of the bottle.  Bowl games outside the playoff are valuable for practice time and development, but relatively meaningless.  

To me, six is the right number for the playoff.  However, the 12-team system with home games is pretty sweet.  But adding four games to the calendar?  Feels like a bit much.  Not sure how that gets reconciled with conference championships and player safety.  Or even when those games start...

schreibee

December 8th, 2022 at 2:52 PM ^

Totally agree, but they're planning on using conference titles as the determinant of who gets byes. So very little chance of eliminating them if that actually becomes the primary qualification for top 4 seeding. 

But for Michigan fans (and I suppose osu) in particular the conference title game seems incredibly pointless. The West has never once won the game, we've just played our Super Bowl, and all it offers us is a chance to get players hurt or lower our seeding. 

And with the presumed elimination of an East vs West game, we now face instead the high probability of playing osu again a week later!

Not seeing the upside at all?

DT76

December 8th, 2022 at 11:01 AM ^

I'd like to see all 0 and 1 loss teams in the playoffs. No exceptions. Seed them accordingly. First round byes where necessary. 5 teams one year, 13 teams next year, doesn't matter.

Blue Balls Afire

December 8th, 2022 at 11:34 AM ^

For the longest time, I agreed with Craig that soccer should get rid of the off-sides rule, at least in some leagues. In my mind, the rule eliminates from soccer one of the most exciting plays—the fast break—that’s present in all other games with ongoing gameplay: basketball, hockey, lacrosse, etc. It didn’t make any sense to me . . . until I finally had a convo with a much more knowledgeable soccer fan. 
 

He said the off-sides rule in soccer actually increases fast-break opportunities because otherwise teams focusing on defense (ie, the ones seeking championships) would stack the box with defenders.  They’d play everyone back to stop fast-breaks and slow the game down even more.  With the off-sides rule, defenses can move the defense up the field as far as they want, and be as aggressive as they want in transition, knowing that doing so also gives the opposing offense more room to attack and exposes them to . . . . fast-breaks. It’s all part of the cat and mouse strategy teams play. 
 

If likened to hockey, instead of the blue line being static, it would be set according to the defense, so a team could move the off-sides line way forward and try to get as many players involved in the action, or a team could play back and try to keep everything in front—all within the same game or even the same shift. 

dcmaizeandblue

December 8th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^

I'm sorry but this doesn't convince me. How many "fast break" events do you see in a soccer game now? Feels like most games it's under 5. I'm willing to get rid of offsides and see what happens. If they play back more that means there's more space in the middle to get the ball into a more interesting area. The game is already extremely slow around the box so I don't think it could get that much worse.

gbdub

December 8th, 2022 at 12:02 PM ^

So why not add a “blue line” equivalent to soccer? 

I think the other issue with offsides now is that with technology it’s now enforced much more strictly than I think is the “spirit” of the rule. Sort of like how video review leads to some basketball OOB calls that hinge on whose fingernail rolled off the ball a nanosecond later, instead of judging based on who really “touched” it last. 

michgoblue

December 8th, 2022 at 1:31 PM ^

The real answer to the question of why not changes the rules of soccer is that soccer, as it currently is, dominates professional sports viewership in almost every single country other than the US.  Has it caught on fully here?  Not, but it is starting to.  But, I don't see the powers that be saying "the entire world loves our game, but let's tinker with it because the Americans (and most of the world love us, right) find it a tad boring."

gbdub

December 8th, 2022 at 2:30 PM ^

I mean, how many soccer fans around the world actually like the way offsides is called now? Based on all the controversy over every close call, I don’t get the sense the rule is popular (at least not in the “fingernail offsides = disallowed goal” level it’s at now). 

Plenty of sports change their rules from time to time I don’t see why you can dismiss the suggestion just because it comes from an American. 

dragonchild

December 8th, 2022 at 12:31 PM ^

Your friend is correct in some technical sense, but I don't think he understands why.  The offsides rule was soccer's answer to the "kick-through" position.  It wasn't defenses that first parked near their goal; the lack of offsides allowed teams to leave an attacker near their opponent's goal to receive long passes.  Defenses would pack the goal area in response.  The basketball comp wouldn't be a fast break, but rather, an alley-oop.  The rule first came about in the 1860s (!!) so there's no footage, of course, but I envision the game in the 1850s was in fact quite fast, but one-dimensional -- there was little to no midfield play.  The ball would just get booted back and forth between two mosh pits.  In some sense, the entire game was fast breaks.

Thing is, while the offsides rule fixed that problem, I feel it created a bigger one.  There's nothing "fast" about defenses pushing back attacks with the offsides trap.  Hockey built their offside rule around a static line.

Blue Balls Afire

December 8th, 2022 at 1:15 PM ^

Yup, this was my argument to my friend. Getting rid of the off sides rule would mean opportunities for teams to cherry pick like Kareem in basketball in his later years (“My dad says you don’t even run back on defense anymore.”), which I thought was the more exciting play.  Thus his response, like yours, that teams would then keep defenders back to address the cherry-picker, thereby mucking up the game. The current off side rule opens up play more by eliminating the need to address cherry-pickers.  
 

I think a distinction should be made between casual games of soccer and soccer played professionally at the highest level. In casual games, youth leagues for example, having an off sides rule would totally slow the game down relative to not having the rule. However, in the Premier League where every goal is precious and games are routinely 0-0, the off sides rule allows teams to not have to play a pack-line defense while still being sound defensively, thus opening up the game.

I’m not sure what I’m talking about anymore, heh heh, but I’m Ron Burgandy?

ehatch

December 8th, 2022 at 1:12 PM ^

I am not a knowledgable soccer fan, but I would like to see the offside rule changed, but not eliminated. Right now if a fingertip is past the defender, it is offside. I would change it to be the entire body needs to be beyond (or at least the feet need to be beyond). It would eliminate the cherry-picking, but I would much rather see a goal allowed because his toe was behind the defender rather than the nonsense we see in this world cup with goals disallowed because an elbow was offside.  

Blue Middle

December 8th, 2022 at 1:30 PM ^

Coached soccer for 10 years, including at the college level, and played through college.

This take is spiritually incorrect.

If you choose to keep a defender--even one--in a "safety" position, you are sacrificing a potential attacker AND opening up more space for the opponent to advance the ball into a goal-scoring position.

People that don't know soccer don't understand just how big the field of play is.  It's 80x120 yards.  Imagine a football game on a field that's 50% larger and every player can pass the football forward at any time.  Now take away a defender.  The football analogy is like having a very deep safety EVERY play.  Think about how that changes the options for the offense and still fails to eliminate the deep pass (because the field is too big for one player to cover its entire width).  Then multiply those challenges with added space.

Choosing to keep defenders deep would make advancing the ball into a scoring position much easier.  Of course, with no offsides, teams would have to sit back a bit more or risk being exposed to easy breakaways, but eliminating the rule would open up the game and more runs behind a defense.

There would be some adverse effects.  For one, soccer is likely the most physically demanding sport from a stamina standpoint, and eliminating offsides would require even more running from both teams and all players.  Two, it would completely change the tactics, not just allow more free runs.  While that could be entertaining, it would have a much bigger impact on how the sport looks and feels than I think most people realize.

But it would absolutely open up the game more, increase goal-scoring, and create more attacker vs. goalkeeper situations, even if they didn't look like long breakaways.

I'm actually very curious what the game would look like without offsides.  I think a fun test would be dropping the rule in overtime.

dragonchild

December 8th, 2022 at 2:45 PM ^

If you choose to keep a defender--even one--in a "safety" position, you are sacrificing a potential attacker AND opening up more space for the opponent to advance the ball into a goal-scoring position.

Eh, not really.  Over the decades teams evolved from 1-2 defenders and 5+ attackers to 4-5 defenders and only two forwards.  I daresay that was irrespective of the offsides rule; rather, our ancestors didn't understand how to utilize space.  The impetus is that there's only one ball and you can't pick it up unless you're a keeper in your own penalty area, so unlike football (where you can throw to any spot on the field) or basketball (where goaltending is illegal) you can threaten only so much space.  We see this in how defenses will give forwards the corners all day to take away the middle of the field.

If you got rid of offsides and teams starting parking half their players downfield, where do you put them?  Putting say five around the goal isn't much more effective than two.  You could park some in the corners to "create space" but defenses will just look at those and go "OK" and focus on the ones in the penalty box.

The fundamental problem with soccer is that it's difficult to make that huge pitch relevant, and offsides actually solved that.  The modern game uses the entire pitch, from the corners to the center.  Thing is, I don't think that necessarily results in a more exciting game.  I'd like to get rid of the rule, but I also think you'd have to replace it with some other way to make space relevant without turning offense into a gorram Rube Goldberg machine.

eliminating offsides would require even more running from both teams and all players.

On the contrary; offsides was created to make the players run around!  Before the rule, defenders and attackers were mostly static, clustered around the goals because there was no offside trap preventing a forward from camping way downfield.

Blue Middle

December 8th, 2022 at 4:02 PM ^

Wow.  We have some massive disagreements here, but I love the conversation.

The evolution of formation (number of attackers vs. number of defenders) was less about space and more about strategy: it's much easier to prevent goals than to score them.  And, despite this evolution, more players are getting into attacking positions now than when we had more "forwards" on the pitch, because there is so much more player movement and interchange.

Antonee Robinson and Sergino Dest were two of our most effective attacking players in the WC, and they are both listed as defenders by formation.  That simply wasn't the case even 20 years ago.  In fact, only our two center-backs were typically not actively involved in our attack.

I played (and coached) through America's progression from playing with a sweeper to a flat-back system.  There are a multitude of reasons for this shift, but one of the big reasons for the change was to stop wasting a potential attacker and to provide better team shape from which to attack (and defend).

If you got rid of offsides and teams starting parking half their players downfield, where do you put them?  Putting say five around the goal isn't much more effective than two.  You could park some in the corners to "create space" but defenses will just look at those and go "OK" and focus on the ones in the penalty box.

No one would park half their players downfield, and they wouldn't need to.  The offside rule mitigates differences in pace.  Players like Ream, Zimmerman, and even Harry Maguire would get toasted by a George Weah.  Having even one attacker with excellent speed would force defenses to change their personnel and tactics on the back line.

More importantly, as you advance into the final third with possession, you could use all of the available space on the field.  In the modern game where you're attacking with eight players, this would be incredibly difficult to defend.

On the contrary; offsides was created to make the players run around!  Before the rule, defenders and attackers were mostly static, clustered around the goals because there was no offside trap preventing a forward from camping way downfield.

Okay...we've moved beyond disagreement into just a really hard take to justify.  The era of soccer to which you refer is long over.  All eleven players on both teams are required to participate in both attack and defense in today's game, and that wouldn't change with offsides gone.  Even your high forward would track back when appropriate, and attacking runs would be much longer and more frequent.  Positional interchange probably increased because of the offsides rule, but it's not going away.  Even if you're the number nine, you are covering sideline-to-sideline and would be making 50-70 yard runs at angles ALL THE TIME if there were no offsides.  Every professional player today is capable of hitting driven long passes that cover 60+ yards much faster than a human can.  And you would still want to move your team as a unit to better control space.

Getting rid of offsides would not cause soccer to revert back to strict positions, it would simply give attackers free reign and would instigate goal-threatening runs every time your team is in possession.  It would also unclog the final third in a way that would increase scoring and attacker vs. keeper events.

Blue Balls Afire

December 8th, 2022 at 5:22 PM ^

I too am thoroughly enjoying the discussion!  A few questions for you:

Antonee Robinson and Sergino Dest were two of our most effective attacking players in the WC, and they are both listed as defenders by formation.  

Isn't that because the off-sides rule allows defenders to play up and participate in the attack?  Without the rule, defenders would have to play back more to avoid fast breaks and cherry pickers? 

Getting rid of offsides would not cause soccer to revert back to strict positions, it would simply give attackers free reign and would instigate goal-threatening runs every time your team is in possession. 

Unless teams kept defenders back to try to prevent just such goal-threatening runs, no?  Teams would more often than not keep defenders back and slow the game down, eliminating any chance for breakaways and odd man rushes (?).  Too many teams, too often would settle into a pack-line defense, no?

It would also unclog the final third in a way that would increase scoring and attacker vs. keeper events.

The final third would not be available at all if there were no off-side rule to allow defenders to move up a third, no?  And by moving the off-sides line up to wherever the last defender is, an attacking team has space behind that defender to strike so long as they're on-side.  Thus the current off-side rule facilitates more attacker vs. keeper events (?).  

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way, you know far more than me.  I'm just trying to understand.  Also, Iike you, I would love to see professional club soccer played without the off-sides rule, just to see what kind of game develops.

MGolem

December 8th, 2022 at 11:35 AM ^

I can’t get over how soft Frankie Collins is for leaving. The transfer PGs over the past few years have taken months to get up to speed. Frankie could have held Jaelin off for good if he was any kind of competitor. And again, they could have easily played side by side. Fucking portal!

ppudge

December 8th, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^

The playoff conundrum comes down to scheduling.  I’m against just allowing every 0 or 1 loss team in because all schedules are not created equally.

Theoretically I would love a points system where your points are based on the record of your opponent.  Something like you get 3 points for every win, 1 extra point for wins on the road (true road games, not neutral sites), 1 additional point for beating a team that’s .500 or better and another point beyond that for beating teams with 9 (or maybe 10) wins or more.

I’d also want to add a point for a loss to a team with 10 or more wins to even further help incentivize playing good nonconference games.