WTKA Roundtable 11/30/2023: It Brings Out All of It Comment Count

Seth November 30th, 2023 at 11:24 AM

Things Discussed:

  • The Game post-op: OSU was closer because they didn't play insane. Were conservative and that worked for them.
  • Payoff for the light boxes all year.
  • Seth's monologue: Ohio State has plenty of hate, Michigan swerved to love, and I'm so happy that they won so we can talk about how the players love each other and love Harbaugh, and how the fans uplifted them.
  • Craig: That's Marxist!
  • Ari Wasserman comes clean: Signsgate was always just about hurting Michigan by changing the narrative.
  • McCarthy runs: obviously injured, OSU had some ideas to stop QB run, but M didn't plan the counters for that because they weren't going to run with him.
  • Michigan didn't learn the lesson of JTT: If you leave him unblocked for a second he will kill you.
  • Play-action is still missing. They are using it wrong.
  • Orjicat: OSU doesn't have numbers with a safety high.
  • McCarthy's read: He studied film on the robber, knew that guy was turning.
  • Last TD: Wasn't a bust, was Ryan Day adjusting to Michigan's Palms coverage.
  • Michael Barrett: shoulda been 1st team All-B10. Tommy Eichenberg was the soft spot Michigan attacked to win this game, and all the other coaches picked on him too.
  • Next year? Let's see what the portal brings, what the NFL takes. Michigan's D will be very good. Will JJ return? (25%?)
  • Sam: Michigan will only be going after guys who are proven commodities (not Tobias Merriweather).
  • Iowa: Atrocious offense, respect their defense minus their best player.
  • CFP: We want to face FSU not Oregon.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

Thank God Michigan won, because they wanted to make it about hate, and today we're talking about love.

Comments

Erik_in_Dayton

November 30th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^

I've had my suspicions about Seth ever since he snuck "the machinery of capitalism is oiled with the blood of the workers" into a Neck Sharpie.

 

(Apologies to The Simpsons for stealing that line.)

dragonchild

November 30th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^

OSU deserves the L, but not for the way they played.  The players are the only ones who probably deserved a W.*

Absolutely no way their fans appreciate, or even have the capability -- in terms of maturity or intellectualism -- of appreciating what OSU brought to The Game.  And for all his brilliance Day is still a petty, cowardly shithead.

I couldn't enjoy the game or Seth's UFR because the whole thing, a well-played, hard-fought game, was thoroughly tainted with bullshit.  And for that, may they shed many bitter tears over a loss they can't and won't comprehend.  They care so much about football that they ruined football.

*Except for the rampant holding, which was so extreme it might've bit them a couple times -- at times they tried to grab instead of block and got moved.

evenyoubrutus

November 30th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^

Are we really surprised by this? We've known for years that fanbase is the most spoiled and entitled on the planet. We've watched them scream at their players by their first names and call them every nasty name in the book for fumbling or dropping a pass. Collectively, they are pure narcissists. They cannot accept in any capacity that Michigan has surpassed them. They will rationalize beyond any coherent thoughts process to explain why they've lost. There's no joy in their lives and they will do everything to suck the joy out of yours. They expect everyone to submerse into their fantasy world completely or they will try to destroy your soul if you do not comply.

dragonchild

November 30th, 2023 at 1:15 PM ^

The fans, not in the least surprised.  No change, really.  But the institution was more like an aristocracy or megacorp, amoral and immensely entitled but caring enough about decorum to take care to appear above the fray.

The rot was always there, but the shamelessness has spread to the core. The royal robes have fallen off to reveal a shit-encrusted swine.

Hensons Mobile…

November 30th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^

Ari Wasserman did not know the signs issue was just noise before Saturday. Do not give him that kind of credit. I take him at face value; he genuinely seems incapable of understanding football at a level beyond stats and stars.

I think he assumed, because of stars, that OSU really would have beaten Michigan in 2021 and 2022 but for the alleged cheating. But faced with the reality of Saturday, that is what made him realize that it is, in fact, possible that it's actually a Ryan Day issue, which is its own misunderstanding of the situation but that's another story.

I think he really was enlightened by Saturday.

FWIW before The Game he basically didn't make a prediction saying he really didn't know how it would play out. (No shit, Ari, none of us do. That's what it's called a prediction.)

Vasav

November 30th, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^

I think this is fair on Ari but it's wider - a lot of people don't KNOW this is crap because it is very convenient for them if it's not. I think  Bielema, Rhule and co really believe that legal sign stealing gives less advantage than Stalions' sign stealing - not because of a thoughtful critique. And not because they're idiots, especially about football. But because they see one as normal and the other as suspicious and it's convenient to feel better about themselves vs Michigan if it's just the signs.

We also have similar blind spots, which is why I purposely wasn't as confident signs didn't matter...until the AP, SI and Yahoo articles. At which point it is very clear that whatever advantage Stalions got, it wasn't major. Klatt - who really is a neutral observer, not a Michigan guy but not an M-hater - also seems to think it was overblown so that makes me both trust him more and believe that we're right.

But yea, Wasserman and CFB nerds are folks who look at paper, not Xs and Os, but stars and math models, and think they should tell the whole story. They want to be the next moneyball generation. And I LOVED moneyball - but we have to recognize the limitations of statistics, and know Goodhart's law, and remember the point of a football game is to win and you win by scoring more points than the opponent. Every other stat just helps explain how you won or predict your winning - stars matter but they're not destiny.

Kapitan Howard

November 30th, 2023 at 2:25 PM ^

I hadn't heard of Goodhart's law before, so I looked it up. I'm glad I did because it's such a succinct way to describe so many phenomena you end up seeing in the corporate world. For those of you like me who were unfamiliar:

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes

Hensons Mobile…

November 30th, 2023 at 3:44 PM ^

Rhule for sure knows what's up. He went from "meh who cares" to "think of the children (health and safety)" and "we were scouted!" after the conference call. He started to feel the heat after he kept losing. Blamed refs and "scouting" for his losses midseason after he lost to Michigan State (lol). He's out their whining right now about how it's very expensive to buy a good QB in the portal so he's going to develop Chubba Purdy.

As for Bielema, I could buy that he hasn't given the whole thing more than five minutes thought and therefore might think, yeah, it could have been a big advantage. But I don't really believe he thinks it's that big a deal, I think he just wants to use it as an excuse to deflect from his own failures this year and especially from his loss to us last year.

They're all being opportunists. They're not actually outraged.

Wasserman, on the other hand, spends his time actually thinking and talking about this stuff. He's just not actually capable of figuring it out.

LeCheezus

November 30th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^

He is just emblematic of the year round football fan that you see at a lot of the year in and year out playoff contenders.  What do you when you live and die by the success of your program, yet there is only actual football for 8.5 months out of the year?  Well, you turn recruiting into a whole new game to "win" so you can cheer on your team year round. 

That means getting the most guys with the highest stars - ignoring the fact that all of those rankings are basically about 10 people's opinions thrown into a blender that supposedly spit out something we are supposed to consider as measurable quantitative data.  When you truly believe this is actual data, I can easily see why on the OSU side you can look at the last two years and say "How on earth did we lose to these guys?  Something must be up."

I'm not going to go full on "stars don't matter", but other things DO ALSO matter. 

Roster construction - Getting four 4-5 star receivers every year makes your class ranking look awesome, but after 3 years in a row of that, it's useless, because you can't put 10 receivers out on the field at the same time.  Practice snaps are also limited.  So, you've ensured you will have one badass receiver room at all times, but your overall talent ranking is inflated because you literally cannot use all of those guys to their potential.

Player development - Seems obvious, but often ignored by the folks who focus only on stars.  IMO, OSU is really lacking those 3 star guys (frequently from Ohio) who don't really come on until years 4 or 5.

Coaching/Playing Style - Maybe a high powered offense that focuses on wide recevering the opponent to death might not be the best tactic for a team that has to play their biggest game of the year in the midwest in late November?  Seems to maybe work better in the playoffs...if you can get there.

Transfer Portal - I will die on this hill - the Transfer Portal is more powerful for a school like Michigan than trying to out recruit OSU.  Getting a 5 star guy takes time, effort and money...and at many positions, they will suck in year 1, you will get mixed results in year 2, then hopefully you get enough in year 3 for it to be worth all the effort and playing time given to a sub optimal player who demands playing time from day 1.  Then they are off to the NFL...or if you actually get a fourth year, chances are they didn't really pan out as a top 30 player in their class.  Contrast this with the production Michigan got from a couple guys the last few years.  5th year Olu vs a 5 star freshman/sophomore center?  Don't make me laugh.  AJ Barner vs a 5 star freshman/sophomore?  Outside of a handful of the absolute best, no way, Barner was a better deal.  Stewart performed about as well as you could expect from the absolute best 5 star DE as a freshman...but showed his years of wisdom as a smart, older player as the year went on.  Again, IMO, this is how you "beat" recruiting rankings - up transfers of proven players that are ready to go, instead of loading up on lottery tickets.

JBLPSYCHED

November 30th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^

Enjoyed today's Roundtable but I didn't understand something during the discussion of which potential CFP opponent poses the biggest threat to Michigan. Brian seemed to suggest that if FSU wins they will be seeded 3rd, presumably bc they would be undefeated, and UO (with 1 loss) would be seeded 4th if they beat UW tomorrow night.

If that happened, and GA beats AL and we beat IA, #1 seed GA would play UO and we would be seeded #2 and play FSU. If I didn't miss something or misunderstand, that doesn't make sense. FSU will make the field if they beat Louisville but would almost assuredly be seeded #4 since Jordan Travis is injured.

Did anyone else hear or understand that part of the discussion differently?

RibbleMcDibble

November 30th, 2023 at 1:54 PM ^

Because its not based on which team is actually better, its which has earned the spot. If it were about which team were better, why would Cincinnati have made it in 2021 over Ohio State? 

Or why would Alabama have been left out last year over TCU? Why was TCU ahead of Ohio State?

They will not move a P5 undefeated champion behind a P5 champion with one loss. 

Seth

November 30th, 2023 at 3:14 PM ^

Yeah the seeding question isn't "Who's the best matchup for #1" the question goes who's #1, who's #2 who's #3 who's #4. Like last year Georgia and OSU were bitching, but to the committee's mind TCU deserved to play the #2 seed and Ohio State was the last team in and deserved to face the #1 seed.

dcmaizeandblue

November 30th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^

Brian’s absolutely wrong about the committee. They could easily put FSU at 4 and justify it either by the backup QB or the desire to have a classic Rose Bowl. I’d be more surprised if that didn’t happen. 

Seth

November 30th, 2023 at 3:09 PM ^

Borges made a really good point on his show with sam this week. That Michigan's success rate looks low, but they do things that defy the formula, e.g. three times they came up short on 3rd down but got to makeable 4th downs.

Vasav

November 30th, 2023 at 3:16 PM ^

They also gamed the two biggest plays of this game - the interceptions - in a way that lots of football math models don't appreciate. A) turnovers are rare and sometimes fluky, so they often get ignored. But M clearly baited that RPO slant and was ready for it - that was a season-long effort at making that big play happen. B) the way that M ran the clock and TOs down, getting points to necessitate driving the field and allowing them to tee off on the passer are things those models do not measure. They are almost always "tempo free." But M's late game strategy allowed them to repeatedly pressure the QB, and throw contested passes 3 times - only one of which was maybe caught.

blanx

November 30th, 2023 at 3:39 PM ^

I think that's a thing that hasn't been completely absorbed by many non-Michigan staffs- if you know that you can convert a 4th and ~2.5 or so 80 percent of the time, then your choices on 3rd and ~6-7 look very different, and it changes your whole mindset.  

Indonacious

November 30th, 2023 at 8:52 PM ^

I think at some point you guys should discuss why Michigan may not be using PA as often as you think. It’s not really a highly advanced or novel concept to run PA. Is it related to pass protection? Do they perceive the benefit to be less than you guys? Do they prefer to have JJ pass in organic pass situations? Just feels like banging head about lack of PA was ok for a week or so but probably not gonna happen at this point.  

AlbanyBlue

December 1st, 2023 at 1:55 PM ^

My biggest takeaway from this show was we are seemingly on a collision course with Oregon. If there's a chance for that matchup to happen, it will probably be too attractive to ignore, especially that is would take place at the Rose Bowl.

Awesome, but we better dust off the passing game -- we would probably need to win a shootout to beat the Ducks. This would certainly test whether or not Jim and staff learned anything from TCU last year.