Bo and why he was/is important
October 12th, 2014 at 8:27 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 8:34 PM ^
All the schemes in the world do not matter if your team does not block or tackle well, is mentally and physically soft, and does not play as a unified group. People on here are obsessed about schemes, but it schemes are of lesser importance than the aforementioned characteristics.
We should not replicate Bo's schemes because those schemes were for another time. Rather, we should seek a coach who operates his program like Bo did. We need a coach whose team plays hard, possess mental and physical toughness in abundance, and most importantly plays as one. That is what Michigan needs.
October 12th, 2014 at 8:40 PM ^
You just described my high school coach. Should I call him up?
October 12th, 2014 at 8:44 PM ^
That's unfortunate.
October 12th, 2014 at 8:46 PM ^
I know a guy. I'll give you a clue. His initials are JH.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:06 PM ^
You know him, Livonia? Why don't you ask him to come here then, as a favor to you?
October 12th, 2014 at 8:44 PM ^
He probably would've told everyone to STFU and stop thinking their fandom is more important than the team
October 12th, 2014 at 9:13 PM ^
Bo would not have tolerated emo from the fanbase, that's for sure.
Imagine Bo interacting with one Brian Cook?
October 12th, 2014 at 8:46 PM ^
What a bunch of bullshit! Will you people listen to yourselves?
One of the supposed qualities of a Michigan Man is that no one is above the program.
Sure seems to me that all these factions, in fighting, and bullshit, highlight that these supposed Michigan Man aren't putting Michigan's interests above their own.
I say clear house and start over.
October 12th, 2014 at 9:03 PM ^
I love what Bo did for Michigan, but until Michigan as a whole can get past the past it won't get any better in AA. I don't care where the next Bo comes from or if he has any connections to the university beforehand.
October 12th, 2014 at 9:09 PM ^
How is OP posting without gaining the vaunted "Trusted" status at 500 points? Reading this imagination driven fiction (including pretend Bo quotes) leaves me to believe the threshold needs to be much, much higher.
October 12th, 2014 at 9:22 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 9:32 PM ^
So your 20,000 points mean your opinion is to be trusted more than the OP's? Give me a fucking break. It more likely means there isn't much going on in Canada.
October 12th, 2014 at 9:39 PM ^
I wouldn't say any more trusted. Please note, however:
I don't make up pretend quotes from dead former coaches.
If that's your idea of quality posts then please, give me a break.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:05 PM ^
Bo Schembechler
October 12th, 2014 at 11:18 PM ^
Well, now that you put it that way...
October 12th, 2014 at 9:26 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 9:57 PM ^
I think you're way overstating the damage of a simple phrase. Why should the largest alumni network on the planet, and the current and prospective students, NOT feel pride in this University? Being a Michigan man or woman is NOT a negative. I have scant patience for those who try to turn a positive into a negative.
Change what happens going forward? Fine, but trashing the legacy won't accomplish that. Recognizing the past does not mean that the past is the future. You state that the criteria for hiring coaches should be a "track record of running a winning program and not being a scumbag." Do you have any idea how almost impossible that is nowadays? You show me a winning program and I can point to some scumbag in it. So make up your mind what you want. Our integrity as a university DOES have "bearing on how the program is run today." We're not the SEC. We didn't give players cash and hookers to come here.
We will get there, but to get there on the terms you outlined, the road is rocky. We did it last night, did you notice how many penalties PSU incurred? We played a clean game and won.
THAT is what it means for a team to be comprised of "Michigan Men"
October 13th, 2014 at 9:45 AM ^
But "Michigan Man" doesn't mean do everything that Bo would do. It certainly didn't when Yost used the phrase.
October 13th, 2014 at 9:57 AM ^
That was 1986, actually; my freshman year. Michigan had lost the Little Brown Jug to the Lou Holtz-coached Golden Gophers in Ann Arbor the previous weekend on Senior Day. Going into the Minnesota game, Michigan was ranked #2 in the country and everyone thought we would finally have a shot at a NC.
The OSU game was played in Columbus. I had a family function to attend that afternoon, so the first time I heard the score of The Game was on the radio. It was 14-6, Buckeyes, in the 1st Quarter. That "guarantee" had amped up Ohio State and they made Michigan pay for a couple of early mistakes.
We came back and won it, of course, sending Michigan to the Rose Bowl (which we lost to the John Cooper-coached ASU Sun Devils). Nevertheless, a Big Ten championship was a great way to begin my time as a student at Michigan.
October 12th, 2014 at 9:32 PM ^
I think one thing that was crucial to Bo's legacy was that he was an enormous and charismatic personality. He seemed to enjoy engaging with the media and fans, and was good at it and often suprisingly funny. That, combined with his success on the field, made him into an almost cult figure.
Lloyd Carr had arguably as much or success as Bo (obviously with the national championship but also the 2000 Orange Bowl win and the 2006 season), but Lloyd never seemed comfortable with the media or in informal fan interactions. RichRod spent much of his time at U-M on the defensive, and Brady's "this is Michigan fergawdsakes" lovefest ended a year or two ago.
Finally, I think that the "Michigan Man" label is nearly meaningless. Bo had spent no time at the University of Michigan prior to when he came here, nor had Crisler or Yost. To the extent that there are attributes that define a "Michigan Man" that have nothing to do with his connection to Michigan (ethics, competitive success, devotion to players etc) then the term has very little meaning other than to say that someone I like (or you like) seems like a Michigan man to us. It just means the kind of coach we want..
October 12th, 2014 at 11:01 PM ^
What's really sad is that in many parts of the country "Michigan Man" has become a punchline and a subject of mockery.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:06 PM ^
and he Had His Share Of Pro-MICHIGAN Critics-- I was often one of them to one degree or another. But in the 1970-80s, you didnt have all this Twitter-On Line-Email Crap, by which to Rag On Everything and to say-- You Suck.
For me-- one of The Lessons Of Schembechlerism is How HARD Opponent Teams play against MICHIGAN from Week To Week, Confgames and Non-Confgames. This is likely in part because of the Brand Name and PR efforts of Canham-Schembechler and Other Things.
You can get a sense of these last points from The HORRIFIC Conference record for the R2 period-- where R2 walked into the conference games and said, Huh ?? Whaaaatt ??
You can also see the same thing with the recent Utah-Minnie Disasters with Hoke.
This makes TheBoLineage Streaks, the Big-3, all The More A-maize-ing. These 3-Streaks were Ended-Terminated in R2s Very FIRST year-- DECADES, of Streaks.
I do NOT believe Bo would have said-- yeah, the R2-Hire is fine. Bo would have said NO-- Im not gonna have some Outsider--
-- R U I N My Streaks . . .
October 12th, 2014 at 10:10 PM ^
First, what is with all the dashes?
Second, who calles Rich Rod R2? It took me a minute to figure out what the hell that meant.
Third, that wasn't Bo's streak. It was Michigan's streak. And if Rich had gotten more support that first year the team probably could have done better than 3 wins.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:27 PM ^
well, maybe R2 should have Gone Public in his 1st-year with the losses mounting and said--
OK-- Im not quite sure What Im Doing, but I need you-all To Give Me More Support. I need a Group Hug. I will feel better . . .
Most MICHIGAN fans would have said- a Group FREAKIN Hug ?? Look-- whatever. Do NOT Blow those BoLineage STREAKS . . .
October 12th, 2014 at 10:33 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 10:44 PM ^
Is GM and LC and R2 and BO.......
Yes even BO would say "no hugs". Lloyd would give hugs (but not good ones).....
MOSTLY "Michigan Men" would give good hugs......../
And the streaks are Bo's......Yes Bo's....
October 12th, 2014 at 10:48 PM ^
I thank you--
You Talk-- My Language . . .
October 12th, 2014 at 10:28 PM ^
Is this a coded message? Are you under duress?
October 12th, 2014 at 10:34 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 10:09 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 10:39 PM ^
In fact, it's hard to move forward if you don't look back, it's called learning from experience
October 12th, 2014 at 11:19 PM ^
October 13th, 2014 at 8:48 AM ^
The "looking back" if you read what a lot of guys have posted here, has to do with the basic fact that Bo was that rare breed, a natural leader. There is nothing wrong with recognizing it. If being a "Michigan Man" means LEADERSHIP then bring it.
Michigan Men will eventually do whatever it takes to modernize our football program.
I hope sooner rather than later.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:22 PM ^
If OSU had not found Tressel they'd still be doing this BS with Woody.
If Oklahoma had not found Stoops they'd still be doing this BS with Switzer.
If Bama had not found Saban they'd still be doing this BS with Bear.
Why can't we respect someone from the past, honor him, but move on? He is a legend but all this hanging onto is a sign we are a lot like Nebraska - stuck on Osborne. We need a new Bo, not in his mannerisms or type of play philosophy or any of that stuff. But a bad a$$ football coach who is an independent entity onto himself? Or else we sound like a fanbase stuck in the past - which is what so many accuse of of. And right now they are correct.
I caught the last 8 years or so of Bo and loved the guy but these threads sound insufferable.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:31 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 10:33 PM ^
I see no problem remembering the man for what he made Michigan. But we should also accept that he was flawed - never won a national championship, had a hard time in Rose Bowls, had some hard times in the begging with bad records and poor ticket sales, and stood idly as the AD during the Fab Five scandal.
Was he a great coach? Yes. Should we honor him? Yes. But do we need to accept that he only rebirthed Michigan football versus is Michigan football? Definitely. Until we let his ghost go we can't turn the page and become relevant again in this new age of college football.
I know this sounds crazy - but stranger things have happened. Like the Babe curve on the Red Sox. Or Lane leaving the Lions. I just feel like we are stuck with a ghost of what Mich football is with the love of Bo. We have to move on as a fanbase and as a program.
October 12th, 2014 at 10:56 PM ^
I am in my mid 40s and grew up with Bo pacing the sidelines. It hurt when he passed. HURT. But dammit, this program has to stop going about things with at least one eye always on the past. Our attempt to modernize with Rodriguez was torpedoed internally by "supporters" who still think it is 1974, but haven't run off Hoke who seems set on running an offense from the 20th century. Yes, we need to cherish, celebrate and be proud of our past but good God can we please move forward with a focus on at lest the present if not the future?
October 12th, 2014 at 11:16 PM ^
I completely understand why so may people worship Schembechler the way they do, especially those who graduated from Michigan during his tenure as head coach. Bo had a saavy to him that you mostly see in politicians, and it helped him shape the culture of the program and the university during the 70s and 80s. He knew how to play a situation perfectly, which is why he turned down the A&M offer the way he did. It made those who experienced him in their youth become completely devoted to him for the rest of their lives.
The guy's personality was so big that he inexplicably became the president of the Tigers and fired Ernie Harwell. When he was asked about becoming the Tiger's president he said, "Football and baseball, it's all competition. It can't be too much different from what I was doing at Michigan. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy." Think about the kind of magnetism you need to get away with something like that.
The biggest issue we have had since Schembechler's death has been the lack of a big persona to fill his void. Moeller's firing and Lloyd's demeanor just couldn't fill the gap and Rich Rod was viewed as a country bumpkin (unfairly) and not allowed time to put a stamp on the program. He simply didn't realize that part of being Michigan's head coach means you have to be like a politician (See also: Yost, Crisler, and on the AD side, Canham). Brady Hoke simply doesn't have the competence. The only guy who's tried (and failed) to be the big ego has been Dave Brandon. Hopefully, the next coach we hire has a big enough personality to quell the discension the way Bo did when he first got to Michigan.
The reason why the factions happened after Bo's death, I think, is because Bo's boys have an inferiority complex and Lloyd's guys don't think their coach gets enough respect. The problem with Bo is that despite his personality and the stamp he left on the program, he's probably Michigan's 3rd best coach behind Yost and Crisler (and there's almost certainly an argument for Carr being better).
I've lived in SEC, Big 12, and ACC country, and as painful as it is to hear, outside of the Big Ten, most people view Bo as a really good coach, but not an all time great one. Michigan brags about 11 national titles, but he won none of them. Michigan has 3 Heisman winners, and he never coached any of them. Bo was good at being a big personality, hyping up the OSU rivalry, and beating up on an awful Big Ten.
I looked this up and it was kind of shocking. Here's the final AP poll for the 1970s, count how many times a Big Ten team besides OSU finished in the top 20: http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/polls_1936_present_e.html
It gets only slightly better in the 1980s: http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/polls_1936_present_f.html
The reason why we talk about "Bo's way" or being a "Michigan Man" has less to do with Bo's results on the field and more to do with his personality (Brandon talks about "the brand" so much because her personally witnessed the way Bo masterfully cultivated it), and that's what I think led to the second faction developing. Carr had the results, but not the personality, and his devotees feel slighted, especially after Rich Rod came in and critiqued him. I think that's why it seems like the program has been tearing itself apart.
I completely agree with Rich Rod when he said that had Bo been alive there would have been less drama, mostly because Bo's faction is bigger than Lloyd's. Bo's personality would have allowed Rich some cover to build the program in his own image and given him time to understand and learn the political side of the job. The next coach we hire has to be a big, intimidating personality along with being a good coach. There are a few guys out there (two or three of which learned from Bo themselves), hopefully we land one because I fear that's the only way we get out of this tailspin.
October 12th, 2014 at 11:04 PM ^
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October 12th, 2014 at 11:49 PM ^
October 12th, 2014 at 11:20 PM ^
October 13th, 2014 at 2:23 AM ^
RR is still close with Don Nehlen, who was a former Bo assistant. Nehlen would have placed some calls on RR's behalf, and Bo would have introduced RR to Davidson, Ross, Brandon, and other fat cats ahead of the hire. In addition, Bo would have worked with Bill Martin to develop an integrated transition plan for RR; the spread would have been phased in like how Wisconsin is working it; some funding would be made to hire Jeff Casteel; and some Carr loyalists (Stripling, Sheridan) may have been retained.
However, I think none of this would have happened as Les Miles would have been the coach anyways.
October 12th, 2014 at 11:22 PM ^
I was fortunate enough to sit down with Greg Harden and have this discussion when I was a senior. You earn the title of Michigan Man, not by attending/coaching here, but by the person you are and how you represent the University off of the field.
October 13th, 2014 at 9:58 AM ^
It's the qualities you name, and in Yost's words "a deathless loyalty to Michigan and all her ways. An enthusiasm that makes it second nature for Michigan Men to spread the gospel of their university to the world’s distant outposts."
Some people think it has something to with with having a history with Michigan. It doesn't. Some people think it has something to do with being stuck in the past. It's not that either. Whatever decisions that are stuck in the past that people blame on the Michigan Man idea, are misunderstandings about what the term means. It has nothing to do with manball or whether or not we play Beyonce at the game or keep the uniforms looking the way they used to.
October 13th, 2014 at 12:58 AM ^
I know he's been around UofM since Mo, and I'm sure he understands the whole "Michigan Man" thing and what Bo meant to this program, but I'm just sitting here watching the weekend highlights of the different Michigan schools and I see Thomas Rawls. I know he's playing MAC schools and what not but why all of a sudden is Rawls Beaking off 121..155...220...229 and 270 now that he is at CMU? When he was even on the field, this guy couldn't find a hole to run through for Michigan. I also think about Mike Cox, who played his last year for UMASS (not impressive), has been playing for the Giants, off and on the practice squad, since he graduated. Put that with how we haven't had a great running back here since Mike Hart and I wonder if this guy is really not what he used to be or was he ever that good of a coach? Don't get me wrong I love the quotes over the years Brian had had fun with (Jackson talking up recruits), but what keeps him here? Is he that good of a recruiter? Do Michigan fans want him retained if and when Hoke is canned? I know this is a long reply but is there anyone out there who wonders the same thing?
October 13th, 2014 at 5:49 AM ^
Other than blaming Jackson for the issues, since Mike Hart graduated, lets also look at he other things that may have contributed to the perception "we haven't had a great running back here since Mike Hart".
In 2007 Mike Hart averaged 5.1 YPC, 2006 = 4.9 YPC, 2005 = 4.4 YPC, 2004 = 5.2 YPC. In context this season, Greene averaged 5.7 YPC and Smith is at 5.2 YPC.
When Hart was the starting RB he was pretty much the only guy running the ball, the last 6 years the starting RB has had to share carries with either Denard or Gardner and Deveon Smith. I loved watching Hart play as much as anyone but trying to say that "we haven't had a great running back here since Mike Hart" is a little misleading. We just had the greatest mobile QB, in the history of college football, play for 4 of theseasons since Hart graduated. So far this season both the first string and second string RB's are out performing Hart.
October 13th, 2014 at 9:14 AM ^
October 13th, 2014 at 9:42 AM ^
I was at the game on Saturday. The RBs are having a hard time "finding the hole" to be sure, but ... how best to say this ...? The OL was awful. There was absolutely no push up front whatsoever. Remember the QB sneak attempt on 3rd and 1? Gardner barely got the ball back to the LOS.
Penn State has been very good against the run this year which may explain some of the low numbers on the ground. But against MSU, I think we'll be lucky to have net positive run yardage.
October 13th, 2014 at 9:09 AM ^