But if you (Or a loved one) did happen to be in a bad car accident, wouldn’t it be nice to know that you could get proper medical care because hospitals weren’t overwhelmed?
I once lived in the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas. The hospitals there are already overwhelmed, and yesterday they reported over 1200 new positive cases. It’s only going to continue to get worse across the state here. I’m so proud of the government of my home state of Michigan taking this seriously.
edit: Here’s where we are with one of our senator’s. John Cornyn: “We still don’t know whether children can get it and transmit it to others," Cornyn said in an interview Thursday with NBC 5. Our leadership here in Texas is abysmal.
Cornyn is wrong, but there is quite a bit of uncertainty about the degree to which children can spread the disease. They can get it, of course, but beyond that, there are still a number of unanswered questions. Several studies have shown that, unlike the flu, SARS-CoV-2 does not seem to be as transmissible by school-aged children.
Although children and adolescents play a major role in amplifying influenza outbreaks, to date, this does not appear to be the case with SARS-CoV-2. Although many questions remain, the preponderance of evidence indicates that children and adolescents are less likely to be symptomatic and less likely to have severe disease resulting from SARS-CoV-2 infection. In addition, children may be less likely to become infected and to spread infection.
I guess the question isn’t if they “can” but “to what extent” - is that your issue with his statement? Are you aware of info that counters what the AAP said? It’s an important topic as we approach fall.
It is a difficult call. Per my wife, primary care pediatric provider, here the AAP recommendation places learning and emotional development above the risks for their physical health. Their rationale includes placing major responsibility for mitigation of risk in the out-of-school environment upon the adults in their lives.
I could care less what you do to yourself. If you don't want to wear a seat belt and get into a bad accident, so be it.
What would piss me off is your survival if it required taxpayers/insureds to pay for your medical costs and rehab that would otherwise be mitigated or eliminated if you had followed the law.
Your attitude is one of entitlement and a disregard for others. I don't know anyone who likes wearing a mask, but if it helps someone else, it's a small price to pay.
If you'd care to debate the constitutionality of laws that are passed to promote the health and welfare of society, I suspect I and others on here with law degrees or a knowledge of constitutional law can give you more than a run for your money.
It is an executive order, not a law passed by the legislature. That doesn't mean it isn't required to be followed, but we should at least proceed cautiously with the breadth and frequency of executive orders unilaterally imposed by a chief executive whether that is President Trump, was President Obama, or is Governor Whitmer.
I agree with you. The better comparison is not the seat belt law but the speeding law because it Is intended to prevent harm not only to oneself, but to others as well. So, the question is, is the speeding law “tyranny?”
Part of the belt law is intended to save a person from himself, but choosing not to wear one hurts me too as I have to pay insurance and governmental benefits (EMT costs, disability benefits, what have you) because some dumbass wants to exercise "freedom" by not wearing it. If said dumbass wants to renounce ALL insurance and publicly funded benefits, then I don't give a shit if they turn their face into a jigsaw puzzle.
They were damn close and only survived because other doctors/nurses/units/buildings were re-purposed as ICU doctors/nurses/etc. Also, at that time all elective stuff was prohibited and several inpatient visits were sent to different settings, like IV meds given from home instead of a hospital setting. Your attitude appears to be, I didn't die yet so I probably never will. That's dumb.
I think the seat belt analogy holds up but I like smoking better. Is it tyranny that you can't smoke cigarettes in restaurants anymore? A shit ton more people are dying (and much more quickly) from COVID than second hand smoke. Just wear the damn mask and stop bitching.
According to wdiv detroit this morning, ventilator usage and critical covid patient care is at its lowest point in Michigan(7/9/2020) during the entire pandemic. This is after months of many people not using masks. Thought I would share.
Why? I'm honestly asking. It seems like hospitalizations and deaths are a far more important data than simply positive tests, as testing has not been consistent over the course of the pandemic.
This is not about Covid. It is about power. It is about stripping away rights from individuals. I am going to accept the negs, the name calling, and whatever else may follow and exit this thread quietly now, but please, if you are on this thread, and you have been just kind of going with the flow but are starting to get a inkling that this may be on really shaky ground, constitutionally. You are absolutely correct. This should never be a law. This is a law applicable to five year old children? It should absolutely not be anything that has not undergone legislative debate and approval and formal public debate. I encourage you to understand that there are more and more people shouting from the rooftops right now and the collective mob is silencing them. Thoroughly research the laws, decisions, and causes you are supporting right now. Think about them critically, not just on the surface. This is a really bad sign.
Wow look at this big brain guy here name dropping the constitution. Sure more time is needed to definitely say that masks will help curtail the spread of the disease. And I say definitively so that a big brain like yourself gets hard evidence. But the one thing we don't have right now is more time. Even preliminary and anecdotal data from countries like Japan and Korea has shown that their existing mask culture has helped in their fight against the disease. The longer we wait, the more lives that get lost because we didn't properly fight this disease.
I don’t think Japan’s mask wearing culture actually does anything to slow the spread of airborne viruses. Last I checked, pneumonia and a lot of influenzas are spread in the same manner as COVID-19. However, Japan has significantly more Influenza and pneumonia deaths on a year to year basis as compared to the United States. Which makes it really weird why they have so few COVID-19 deaths and positive cases. Maybe the game is rigged? Or maybe Japan isn’t as liberal with how they are counting their cases and deaths?
"However, Japan has significantly more Influenza and pneumonia deaths on a year to year basis as compared to the United States."
Source? I'm suspicious of that. Also, do you actually think all or even most Japanese people wear masks around in normal times? It's a tiny percentage at any one time.
You seem to lack a basic understanding of what happens in a pandemic and probably a basic understanding of math. You need to act about a month or more ahead of time when any significant case data, raw numbers and growth, shows up. By the time numbers become obvious, as you seem to want, you are screwed.
You seem to want to use current numbers to make decisions in a pandemic and that is the fundamental cause of why we are where we are today in many of these politically run states.
In fact, one month ago an mgblogger in Florida said on here exactly the same thing about Florida that you are saying about Michigan today when he/she tried to counter everybody’s posts a month ago that Fl was going to be screwed. The difference is MI is making the right decisions and FL was not. I doubt they are posting this month. You should feel lucky to have competent leadership in MI because otherwise it would look like FL.
Wearing a mask is about getting the transmission rate R0 to below 1. A mask alone is not be enough to do it. Everyone has to comply, there can be no gatherings, bars need to stay closed, and restaurants are risky as long as the cases are at a certain level as they are today. But anyone that wants to complain about having to shut down businesses and shelter in place should be the first to want to wear a mask.
If all you'd wrote is that last paragraph, we'd agree 95%. Everything else, not as much.
" politically run states" Whenever anybody says their side is morally pure and insinuates the other side is all about the politics, it kind of makes me assume they've replaced all their organs with fecal matter, just saying. That kind of thinking requires one of three things, delusion, bigotry, or stupidity. Nothing else. No wait, it could be a combination of those. Regardless, it's not good thinking.
The comment about “politically run states“, I would agree is more conjecture and is the only exception. It’s tough to prove that point. However, a government leader has to take significant political risk to make the tough decision that some constituents won’t like where they need to close things down, have people wear masks, and take other measures for the benefits of all of their constituents. It’s therefore an a political decision. In this case there is little little to be gained politically for a governor or similar leader to follow generally accepted “pandemic” protocals early, when the timing is critical, because they leave themselves open for criticism and political backstabbing. On the other hand another Governor, with credentialed medical and scientific advisors, that ignores the advice and instead follows the political pressures is acting politically. I therefore stand behind my statement.
Hold on, is sending COVID-19 patients to nursing homes, the location with our most vulnerable population, competent leadership? Because that’s what Whitmer did, and I believe that’s the complete opposite of competent leadership.
amitrx
July 10th, 2020 at 11:21 AM ^
Good
Joined: 01/12/2018
MGoPoints: 1007
Larry Appleton
July 10th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
Great.
Joined: 05/15/2014
MGoPoints: 17216
NFG
July 10th, 2020 at 11:29 AM ^
Grand.
Joined: 04/24/2012
MGoPoints: 47985
sLideshowBob
July 10th, 2020 at 11:35 AM ^
Jolly
Joined: 12/17/2013
MGoPoints: 3464
BoFan
July 10th, 2020 at 12:38 PM ^
Smart
Joined: 03/09/2012
MGoPoints: 20071
HenneManCrush
July 10th, 2020 at 11:35 AM ^
Wonderful.
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 1366
JeepinBen
July 10th, 2020 at 11:47 AM ^
NO YELLING ON THE BUS
Joined: 01/22/2010
MGoPoints: 32248
Perkis-Size Me
July 10th, 2020 at 11:53 AM ^
I will never forget the year of the Spanish Armada because of that movie.
Joined: 11/30/2011
MGoPoints: 106156
rob f
July 10th, 2020 at 12:03 PM ^
The Spanish Flu, too.
Joined: 11/11/2010
MGoPoints: 195668
Robbie Moore
July 10th, 2020 at 3:11 PM ^
To say nothing of the Spanish Fly.
Joined: 12/01/2008
MGoPoints: 46465
LewisBullox
July 10th, 2020 at 1:14 PM ^
That is corrrrect
Joined: 04/02/2020
MGoPoints: 3810
OSUMC Wolverine
July 10th, 2020 at 2:13 PM ^
Billy Madison references always rewarded...
Joined: 09/06/2008
MGoPoints: 4403
Njia
July 10th, 2020 at 12:06 PM ^
Super-duper.
Joined: 09/15/2009
MGoPoints: 35773
MAN-AT-ARMS
July 10th, 2020 at 12:26 PM ^
No, only $500.
Joined: 12/21/2018
MGoPoints: 3169
The Fugitive
July 10th, 2020 at 2:41 PM ^
Joined: 01/26/2016
MGoPoints: 77797
NFG
July 10th, 2020 at 3:08 PM ^
+1 underrated
Joined: 04/24/2012
MGoPoints: 47985
gruden
July 10th, 2020 at 11:26 AM ^
I love the smell of tyranny in the morning...
Joined: 04/29/2016
MGoPoints: 6063
93Grad
July 10th, 2020 at 11:30 AM ^
Do you consider seat belt requirements to be "tyranny"?
Joined: 07/26/2011
MGoPoints: 13804
Broken Brilliance
July 10th, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^
I didn't know that I would fly 100 mph through my mask if I chose not to wear one.
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 7717
blue in dc
July 10th, 2020 at 11:36 AM ^
But if you (Or a loved one) did happen to be in a bad car accident, wouldn’t it be nice to know that you could get proper medical care because hospitals weren’t overwhelmed?
Joined: 01/22/2011
MGoPoints: 20401
Broken Brilliance
July 10th, 2020 at 11:38 AM ^
I didn't know Michigan hospitals were turning away critically ill covid patients. They weren't in spring.
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 7717
mgobaran
July 10th, 2020 at 11:40 AM ^
Waiting until hospitals are overflowing to act is waiting 2-4 weeks too long.
Joined: 09/12/2012
MGoPoints: 22819
Toasted Yosties
July 10th, 2020 at 11:48 AM ^
I once lived in the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas. The hospitals there are already overwhelmed, and yesterday they reported over 1200 new positive cases. It’s only going to continue to get worse across the state here. I’m so proud of the government of my home state of Michigan taking this seriously.
edit: Here’s where we are with one of our senator’s. John Cornyn: “We still don’t know whether children can get it and transmit it to others," Cornyn said in an interview Thursday with NBC 5. Our leadership here in Texas is abysmal.
Joined: 06/05/2013
MGoPoints: 9261
Njia
July 10th, 2020 at 12:13 PM ^
Cornyn is wrong, but there is quite a bit of uncertainty about the degree to which children can spread the disease. They can get it, of course, but beyond that, there are still a number of unanswered questions. Several studies have shown that, unlike the flu, SARS-CoV-2 does not seem to be as transmissible by school-aged children.
Joined: 09/15/2009
MGoPoints: 35773
Hotel Putingrad
July 10th, 2020 at 4:11 PM ^
Hey, only one way to find out, right? SCHOOL IS IN SESSION!!!
Joined: 12/10/2014
MGoPoints: 212732
Hanlon's Razor
July 10th, 2020 at 5:34 PM ^
I have only found studies that were inconclusive on transmissibility by children. Would you please share the name of the studies or a link?
Joined: 08/19/2018
MGoPoints: 4057
Mitch Cumstein
July 10th, 2020 at 12:20 PM ^
Is that statement by Cornyn inaccurate? That seems to be consistent with the school guidance that the AAP recently put out:
I guess the question isn’t if they “can” but “to what extent” - is that your issue with his statement? Are you aware of info that counters what the AAP said? It’s an important topic as we approach fall.
Joined: 10/02/2009
MGoPoints: 14072
outsidethebox
July 10th, 2020 at 2:01 PM ^
It is a difficult call. Per my wife, primary care pediatric provider, here the AAP recommendation places learning and emotional development above the risks for their physical health. Their rationale includes placing major responsibility for mitigation of risk in the out-of-school environment upon the adults in their lives.
Joined: 01/23/2017
MGoPoints: 18818
bluebyyou
July 10th, 2020 at 12:21 PM ^
I could care less what you do to yourself. If you don't want to wear a seat belt and get into a bad accident, so be it.
What would piss me off is your survival if it required taxpayers/insureds to pay for your medical costs and rehab that would otherwise be mitigated or eliminated if you had followed the law.
Your attitude is one of entitlement and a disregard for others. I don't know anyone who likes wearing a mask, but if it helps someone else, it's a small price to pay.
If you'd care to debate the constitutionality of laws that are passed to promote the health and welfare of society, I suspect I and others on here with law degrees or a knowledge of constitutional law can give you more than a run for your money.
Joined: 09/07/2009
MGoPoints: 18732
shoes
July 10th, 2020 at 1:35 PM ^
It is an executive order, not a law passed by the legislature. That doesn't mean it isn't required to be followed, but we should at least proceed cautiously with the breadth and frequency of executive orders unilaterally imposed by a chief executive whether that is President Trump, was President Obama, or is Governor Whitmer.
Joined: 07/01/2008
MGoPoints: 9642
slblue
July 10th, 2020 at 1:36 PM ^
I agree with you. The better comparison is not the seat belt law but the speeding law because it Is intended to prevent harm not only to oneself, but to others as well. So, the question is, is the speeding law “tyranny?”
Joined: 12/20/2008
MGoPoints: 1496
Brimley
July 10th, 2020 at 5:40 PM ^
Part of the belt law is intended to save a person from himself, but choosing not to wear one hurts me too as I have to pay insurance and governmental benefits (EMT costs, disability benefits, what have you) because some dumbass wants to exercise "freedom" by not wearing it. If said dumbass wants to renounce ALL insurance and publicly funded benefits, then I don't give a shit if they turn their face into a jigsaw puzzle.
Joined: 03/22/2011
MGoPoints: 11696
Longballs Dong…
July 10th, 2020 at 3:19 PM ^
They were damn close and only survived because other doctors/nurses/units/buildings were re-purposed as ICU doctors/nurses/etc. Also, at that time all elective stuff was prohibited and several inpatient visits were sent to different settings, like IV meds given from home instead of a hospital setting. Your attitude appears to be, I didn't die yet so I probably never will. That's dumb.
I think the seat belt analogy holds up but I like smoking better. Is it tyranny that you can't smoke cigarettes in restaurants anymore? A shit ton more people are dying (and much more quickly) from COVID than second hand smoke. Just wear the damn mask and stop bitching.
Joined: 04/28/2011
MGoPoints: 2550
JamesBondHerpesMeds
July 10th, 2020 at 11:57 AM ^
Not sure, but I've heard getting a ventilator jammed down your windpipe hurts almost as much.
Joined: 04/13/2009
MGoPoints: 39717
Broken Brilliance
July 10th, 2020 at 12:00 PM ^
According to wdiv detroit this morning, ventilator usage and critical covid patient care is at its lowest point in Michigan(7/9/2020) during the entire pandemic. This is after months of many people not using masks. Thought I would share.
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 7717
JamesBondHerpesMeds
July 10th, 2020 at 12:05 PM ^
(sigh) I could argue with you, but I don't think I want to.
Joined: 04/13/2009
MGoPoints: 39717
evenyoubrutus
July 10th, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
Why? I'm honestly asking. It seems like hospitalizations and deaths are a far more important data than simply positive tests, as testing has not been consistent over the course of the pandemic.
Joined: 11/04/2008
MGoPoints: 178522
ijohnb
July 10th, 2020 at 12:24 PM ^
Here is your answer.
This is not about Covid. It is about power. It is about stripping away rights from individuals. I am going to accept the negs, the name calling, and whatever else may follow and exit this thread quietly now, but please, if you are on this thread, and you have been just kind of going with the flow but are starting to get a inkling that this may be on really shaky ground, constitutionally. You are absolutely correct. This should never be a law. This is a law applicable to five year old children? It should absolutely not be anything that has not undergone legislative debate and approval and formal public debate. I encourage you to understand that there are more and more people shouting from the rooftops right now and the collective mob is silencing them. Thoroughly research the laws, decisions, and causes you are supporting right now. Think about them critically, not just on the surface. This is a really bad sign.
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 69986
TheJoker
July 10th, 2020 at 12:31 PM ^
Wow look at this big brain guy here name dropping the constitution. Sure more time is needed to definitely say that masks will help curtail the spread of the disease. And I say definitively so that a big brain like yourself gets hard evidence. But the one thing we don't have right now is more time. Even preliminary and anecdotal data from countries like Japan and Korea has shown that their existing mask culture has helped in their fight against the disease. The longer we wait, the more lives that get lost because we didn't properly fight this disease.
Joined: 09/01/2011
MGoPoints: 1488
MoralSupport
July 10th, 2020 at 1:22 PM ^
I don’t think Japan’s mask wearing culture actually does anything to slow the spread of airborne viruses. Last I checked, pneumonia and a lot of influenzas are spread in the same manner as COVID-19. However, Japan has significantly more Influenza and pneumonia deaths on a year to year basis as compared to the United States. Which makes it really weird why they have so few COVID-19 deaths and positive cases. Maybe the game is rigged? Or maybe Japan isn’t as liberal with how they are counting their cases and deaths?
Joined: 07/10/2020
MGoPoints: 42
Gulogulo37
July 10th, 2020 at 5:02 PM ^
"However, Japan has significantly more Influenza and pneumonia deaths on a year to year basis as compared to the United States."
Source? I'm suspicious of that. Also, do you actually think all or even most Japanese people wear masks around in normal times? It's a tiny percentage at any one time.
Joined: 03/16/2010
MGoPoints: 28376
YouKnowNothing…
July 10th, 2020 at 12:34 PM ^
dude, go crawl into your bunker filled with trump-branded canned beans, a tv that only plays Fox news, and leave the rest of us alone.
Joined: 09/18/2016
MGoPoints: 4595
umumum
July 10th, 2020 at 1:54 PM ^
You have been wrong---seriously wrong--every step of the way.
Joined: 01/06/2011
MGoPoints: 7882
docblueburg
July 10th, 2020 at 4:47 PM ^
You are the dumbest member of mgoblog and it ain't even close. My god you f'in moron.
Joined: 05/23/2018
MGoPoints: 276
JamesBondHerpesMeds
July 10th, 2020 at 4:06 PM ^
Because we're comparing apples to oranges.
We need mask usage to increase because more businesses are opening up in the state.
Joined: 04/13/2009
MGoPoints: 39717
BoFan
July 10th, 2020 at 12:30 PM ^
You seem to lack a basic understanding of what happens in a pandemic and probably a basic understanding of math. You need to act about a month or more ahead of time when any significant case data, raw numbers and growth, shows up. By the time numbers become obvious, as you seem to want, you are screwed.
You seem to want to use current numbers to make decisions in a pandemic and that is the fundamental cause of why we are where we are today in many of these politically run states.
In fact, one month ago an mgblogger in Florida said on here exactly the same thing about Florida that you are saying about Michigan today when he/she tried to counter everybody’s posts a month ago that Fl was going to be screwed. The difference is MI is making the right decisions and FL was not. I doubt they are posting this month. You should feel lucky to have competent leadership in MI because otherwise it would look like FL.
Wearing a mask is about getting the transmission rate R0 to below 1. A mask alone is not be enough to do it. Everyone has to comply, there can be no gatherings, bars need to stay closed, and restaurants are risky as long as the cases are at a certain level as they are today. But anyone that wants to complain about having to shut down businesses and shelter in place should be the first to want to wear a mask.
Joined: 03/09/2012
MGoPoints: 20071
GoBlueTal
July 10th, 2020 at 2:09 PM ^
If all you'd wrote is that last paragraph, we'd agree 95%. Everything else, not as much.
" politically run states" Whenever anybody says their side is morally pure and insinuates the other side is all about the politics, it kind of makes me assume they've replaced all their organs with fecal matter, just saying. That kind of thinking requires one of three things, delusion, bigotry, or stupidity. Nothing else. No wait, it could be a combination of those. Regardless, it's not good thinking.
Joined: 10/15/2011
MGoPoints: 988
BoFan
July 10th, 2020 at 2:59 PM ^
All four paragraphs are absolutely true.
The comment about “politically run states“, I would agree is more conjecture and is the only exception. It’s tough to prove that point. However, a government leader has to take significant political risk to make the tough decision that some constituents won’t like where they need to close things down, have people wear masks, and take other measures for the benefits of all of their constituents. It’s therefore an a political decision. In this case there is little little to be gained politically for a governor or similar leader to follow generally accepted “pandemic” protocals early, when the timing is critical, because they leave themselves open for criticism and political backstabbing. On the other hand another Governor, with credentialed medical and scientific advisors, that ignores the advice and instead follows the political pressures is acting politically. I therefore stand behind my statement.
Joined: 03/09/2012
MGoPoints: 20071
MoralSupport
July 10th, 2020 at 3:45 PM ^
Hold on, is sending COVID-19 patients to nursing homes, the location with our most vulnerable population, competent leadership? Because that’s what Whitmer did, and I believe that’s the complete opposite of competent leadership.
Joined: 07/10/2020
MGoPoints: 42
IDKaGoodName
July 10th, 2020 at 3:01 PM ^
Ventilator machines are pretty fucking big. Can see why it would be painful
Joined: 12/17/2018
MGoPoints: 7378