Nick Saban's offensive evolution at Alabama
Per the title, even Nick Saban has changed with the times.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/open-scoring-nick-sabans-evolution-changed-alabama-025126292.html
January 3rd, 2019 at 8:49 PM ^
It is also a lot easier for Nick to evolve offensively when he is a defensive coach. He just hires an OC that has whatever offense he is looking for.
JH using a more modern offense would be like Saban running a 4-3 his whole career then bringing in a DC to run a 3-4.
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:39 PM ^
Urban was an offensive coach his entire career, saw the limitations of a zone read offense (JTB) and brought in Ryan Day. Maybe I’m missing the point? To me, using the excuse of bagmen is just nonsense. If you think that is the reason then your diminishing the accountability for anyone to do better. New offensive trends have been happening since the Wing T fell out of favor, Woody evolved from the T to the I formation For the record, defenses have evolved the same way offenses have. Harbaugh will adapt too, do you really expect the same offense of structure next year regardless of who is calling the plays?
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:41 PM ^
My point is I think Saban gets too much credit for the offense at Bama. If an offensive coach has a good D, the coordinator gets credit. If Saban has a good O, he gets credit for it. I have said nothing about bagmen nor am I denying that Saban is a good coach. But, all he did was realize his O was falling behind and he went out and hired someone to fix it. Good awareness, sure, but personal adaptation of his coaching? I don't really see it that way. Your Urban example is more of an example of changing personal scheme.
do you really expect the same offense of structure next year regardless of who is calling the plays?
Not entirely. I expect no matter what plays are called it will run more smoothly. I expect to be able to run a no huddle. I am sure JH knows why it took so long to get plays in and why it seemed the offense was so out of rhythm, even when scoring against lesser opponents. I would imagine he will make those changes.
If you are asking do I expect a change in philosophy? I do not. I think as long as JH is here there will be a lot of heavy formations and lot of running. I think he will always be on the conservative side. He has said numerous times his goal is to end every possesion in a kick; punt, exp or FG. I just don't think that gets it done in today's college football. The good teams are too efficient that a punt is just as bad as a TO. You can get away with that against some teams in B1G but not if you want to beat OSU or win anything further. To me it boils down to hoping your D can get a handful of stops and then capitalizing on them.
I hope JH proves me wrong and puts out a multiple, dynamic offense that gets playmakers the ball and has some tempo and rhythm. I remain skeptical.
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:48 PM ^
I just don't think that gets it done in today's college football. The good teams are too efficient that a punt is just as bad as a TO.
Bingo.
January 7th, 2019 at 8:01 PM ^
Great response and I don’t disagree. The bagmen comment was in response to prior posts on the thread, I should have clarified.
January 3rd, 2019 at 8:54 PM ^
I think we need to be careful what we wish for. This offense needs some modifications.
but bringing in an OC with radically different or complete spread ideas will give us a huge transition cost and have key players like Shane learning something new.
Tweaking is fine. Particularly if the o line takes another step
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:13 PM ^
saban's offensive was more evolution than revolution though.
Michigan did run spread, but then stopped. Running shorter crossing routes, having tempo packages etc doesn't seem particularly revolutionary...
having a single OC that is responsible for all the game callings hardly seems revolutionary.
Michigan's offense versus Florida was pretty bad...doesn't take a genius to see how disjointed the plays were...
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:46 PM ^
I’m fine with adding spread elements and changing the ratio of run to pass some. I’m fine with adding some crossing routes. But some have suggested bringing in pure spread OC’d and “giving them the keys”. That’s an overhaul.
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:37 PM ^
yeah, I agree that that isn't going to happen... primarily due to Harbaugh's philosophy
Again, Saban slowly implemented things when he swapped Nussmeier for Lane; Saban saw the writing on the wall and knew that he HAD to make adjustments
I don't know if Harbaugh will adjust, but he needs to..
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:07 PM ^
primarily due to Harbaugh's stubbornness. FIFY.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:13 AM ^
"I don't know if Harbaugh will adjust, but he needs to.."
That is where I disagree. Adapt the offense, sure. I think that is what many are talking about. Going back to the offense we had with Fisch (not sure how much he had to do with it) would be a great first step.
But as I stated before there are many calling for A) a new, 'modern' (read spread) OC and B) letting him have the keys. There would be a huge transition cost to that.
We're building a strong O line. We have good downfield recievers and have recruited good quick dump off guys. If we tweak this current offense to take advantage of that, and maybe start winning the short yardage LOS battles we lost this year more often (not having Higdon in the Bowl didn't help) we can have a hell of an offense.
Burn down what we have and go all spread zealot is going to be ugly for a couple years at least, and people will bitch about that.
Let's do what we can do well and not burn down the house every 3-4 damned years chasing some other schools practices.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:23 AM ^
well, not sure if you are confusing me with others, but i am saying a evolutionary approach is what is necessary, which is what Saban has done with Bama.
the switch from Nuss to Lane didn't manifest in some kind of air-raid offense littered with slot dots... it was a gradual process and still incorporated a lot of power runs...but it also put playmakers in space and got them the ball.
i'd have to go back and look, but PSU under Moorhead wasn't an 'air raid' offense, but it did put playmakers in space, it did create and exploit mismatches, it generated tons of confusion.
the only thing i am advocating is having a coherent offensive strategy, a tempo package, and getting the ball to your play makers in space...
January 4th, 2019 at 11:04 AM ^
I'm on board with that. I think, re-reading, I wasn't understanding your point. Sorry about that. I still hold with the idea that I'm against a complete spread transformation, particularly if we want to do it in a year or two. But if you want to start easing towards more open offense I'm fine with that.
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:23 PM ^
Needs to be more than just some "tweaks".
We have arguably the best WR group in the nation next year and a good QB. This will be the best WR group Michigan has ever had with DPJ, Black, Nico, Martin, and Bell.
Time to air it out, run a lot of crossing routes, hit our WR in stride. We need to constantly get the ball into the hands of guys like DPJ, Bell, Black who can make moves in open space.
Watching OSU and how they utilize their athletes by hitting them across the middle and then letting them make plays is exactly what we need to do all the time.
Im Sick of waiting until 3rd down to finally go for the 1st down pass
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:54 PM ^
Transition Cost - This is the first mention of TC I have read and it’s a reality. People talk about Shea’s accuracy and want to go air raid. There was another post about the great receivers but the 2 deep is light. You can’t pull off an air raid offense without a deep receiving Corp especially with the same QB that 1/2 the fans want him to use his legs to run zone read plays. Adjust the offense to maximize the athletes on the roster you have today, use different concepts to attack under the current style and things will get better. Go Air Raid because it’s Big 12 and trendy and it will be a disaster.
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:49 PM ^
If you spread the field more you don't have to automatically go air raid. There are plenty of teams who spread the field to run the ball. That is what UF just did to UM. Spreading the field allows for more favorable numbers in the box. UM's OL has a lot of talent, but I can't imagine any OL being succesful when they are constantly trying to run the ball against 8/9 man boxes and then pass protecting on obvious passing downs. That isn't a sustainable formula. Also, spread passing requires less accuracy. A lot of the air raid is predicated on short quick passes to get the ball to your guys in space.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:42 AM ^
"UM's OL has a lot of talent, but I can't imagine any OL being succesful when they are constantly trying to run the ball against 8/9 man boxes and then pass protecting on obvious passing downs."
UM has an O line that is just starting to come online. And it's using some guys (Runyan) out of position. In my opinion these are great guys making the best of a not ideal situation, and great coaching by Warinner.
I agree that we need to spread out the defense more, and kick it back on its heals. I disagree that it has to be full spread. We can implement spread packages and use what we have more; but still retain the overall flavor of our offense. Do that, let the line improve for another year, let Shae improve and get more comfortable, and this offense could look very interesting, in a good way.
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:55 PM ^
Throwing the ball to NFL caliber receivers is not radical. Radical is getting blown out in back to back games and not changing a damn thing.
January 3rd, 2019 at 9:38 PM ^
College football is rigged and sucks. NFL playoffs are here ... THANK GOD !
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:35 PM ^
So many money quotes in this thing:
Once so famously resistant to the high-flying offenses in college football that Saban declared, “Is this what we want football to be?” in response to the surge of no-huddle attacks, his Crimson Tide program has transformed into the type of offensive juggernaut he once derided.
“I think he’s as smart as they come,” Clemson defensive coordinator Brent Venables said of Saban. “I think he said, ‘These are the things that hurt us, so let’s do it to them.’ ”
there was a defined and unrefined (Alabama) offensive philosophy. “We ran the ball when we wanted to and where we wanted to,” he said. “It wasn’t quite Woody Hayes, but it was more of a grind-it-out mentality.”
“They’re (Alabama) creating problems across [the width of the field] now. They’d always been a problem before at the point of attack and over your head. Now they’re presenting some ‘race for space’ plays.”
“I just remember thinking, ‘Wow.’ Here’s a guy with multiple national championships that wants to open himself up to self-evaluation of his defense. But also an evaluation of where offenses are heading.”
“You have to empower your offense,” he said, “to win shootouts occasionally.”
Now back to your regularly scheduled just-wait-until-next-year Manball reality show.
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:12 PM ^
You are absolutely right.
Too many are happy with 10 wins, that we "exceeded expectations", etc. Look critically at your losses people, we did not get beat on last second field goals or turnovers, we got jail-sexed/humiliated by teams that we were favored against that run more modern offenses. We have the talent to run a more potent offense, even with this improving OL, look at the WR corp and Shea.
This is not 2016 where we can PROUDLY say that 10-3 was a good year and we lost 3 games by ONLY 5 totals points, that was actually a very good season in comparison to this 10-3.
January 4th, 2019 at 8:23 AM ^
Agree with all of this. One thing to keep in mind though is that the 2016 defense was much better than this one. Go re-watch the 2016 OSU game -- we were getting into the backfield on every play. In 2018, not at all. Obviously some of that is the injuries to Gary and Winovich, but most of it is Maurice Hurst up the middle. Also Haskins >> Barrett.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:50 AM ^
The 2016/2018 comparison is valid, but I think this is more of a critique of the defense than the offense. Our Defense just utterly collapsed the last two games, and showed cracks in the indiana game. I think it was a good, but not great, defense that had gaps with speed, and with depth on the D line.
I'm not sure why Brown had such a hard time adjusting, but he seems to have had. (I'm not critiquing the guys coaching. He may have had a hard time adjusting for legitimate reasons, I.E. the starter is injured and the backup is lost in his matchup with their starter).
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:57 PM ^
"When you get in critical situations in the game, don't think of plays, think of players."
- Saban said in an interview from this week.
We need a modern offense that's flexible. The current vanilla old-school offense is fine against teams with lesser talent where we're favored since we can 'mask' our true offensive potential. When it comes to OSU (and other top teams) though, they're going to score no matter how well the defense plays, so the offense needs to keep up. Having the right game plan is essential, but this is where we need to rely on our best athletes/players. We have some NFL-esque guys on this offense, viz. the WR corps, the QB, and possibly RB with Charbonnet coming. I always see so how many complaints and excuses about how OSU has superior talent, well, why not let our best talent shine?
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:18 PM ^
DPJ, Black, Collins, Ambry, Martin are stud athletes that can ball. Would We want to play against a team throwing them 60 passes a game and getting them open into space to make plays.
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:18 PM ^
DPJ, Black, Collins, Ambry, Martin are stud athletes that can ball. Would We want to play against a team throwing them 60 passes a game and getting them open into space to make plays.
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:24 PM ^
Alabama's OL Coach Brent Key is expected to take the GT OL job. He was a GT grad and will serve under Geoff collins.
Why is this important? Because I posted a few days ago that Alabama made some contact with Ed Warinner. Now we need to know how serious that contact will become. The coaches convention starts this weekend.
We should get more clarity next week on a lot staff positions. There is also a confirmation of that contact by Alabama and other teams showing interest in Ed as well in a paywall post on rivals by Balas.
Things are going to get interesting with our staff. However, there no confirmations or guarantees of anyone leaving yet.
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:55 PM ^
Interesting or ugly. Warinner is a guy I don't want to see leave.
January 4th, 2019 at 12:03 AM ^
My thought exactly. Of our entire staff, Warinner is the guy I least want to lose. Followed by Al Washington who appears to be a target for Day’s staff.
Thank goodnessnobody appears to want Pep. /s
January 4th, 2019 at 3:32 PM ^
January 4th, 2019 at 12:02 AM ^
Pep can coach their OL, hell we can throw jaybaugh in also, deal????
January 4th, 2019 at 12:29 AM ^
Doesn't Warriner have a son at MSU? Why would he move to Alabama to take a lateral position?
January 4th, 2019 at 12:39 AM ^
Money, win another national title, or two, would be my guesses.
January 5th, 2019 at 3:14 PM ^
and then pay full out of state tuition. . .
January 4th, 2019 at 5:21 AM ^
So if Ed Warinner leaves what will happen to all the offensive linemen that have signed with Michigan because they wanted to be coached by Ed Warinner? He's going to leave them?
January 4th, 2019 at 8:20 AM ^
Happens everywhere. Diaz just signed 17 kids to Temple and left the next week. Its college football whether right or wrong.
January 4th, 2019 at 9:07 AM ^
Not great, Bob.
If NSD was still in February, we'd have a recruiting class of walkons.
On to hoops.
January 4th, 2019 at 9:48 AM ^
Things only keep getting better for Us michigan fans.....LB coach to OSU in a lateral move, OL coach to Bama in a lateral move. Meanwhile, Offense can't score 30 on any meaningful defense and the defense cant stop anyone meaningful.....I sometimes wonder why I chose to follow Woodson back in the 90's....But then I remember he was a GEEEEEEE at Green Bay, so as of now al worth it. Just beat OSU one more time in my lifespan please...
January 4th, 2019 at 3:58 PM ^
Lateral moves? Michigan is a tier 2 program. OSU is tier 1 and Alabama is king of the tiers.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:16 AM ^
Warinner and Washington have been key to infiltrating Ohio ... we need to pay those guys big money to stay.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:57 AM ^
Oh man... I hope not. I hope not. Oh man. He's been a HUGE addition. That would BPONE me big time.
January 4th, 2019 at 1:58 PM ^
so JH is going to make Ed the OC to get him to stay and let Pep move on to pastures new? That would be ok....
January 4th, 2019 at 12:06 AM ^
110 man roster (including injuries,walk ons and 5th year guys) that has 107 4-5 star kids really helps .. he can run Army wish bone,Hawaii run-n-fun,Nevada Pistol or Jim Harbaughs offense .Doesnt really matter Bama 2-3-4 deep is always going to be better than yours. Alabama has top 100 recruits begging for PT
January 4th, 2019 at 9:50 AM ^
Honestly this is it right here. People on this board will rip a comment like this apart because they dont want to except the truth. Michigan recruits at a level below the Georgias, OSU, Clemsons, and Especially the Bamas of the world. Those are the only 4 teams who have any legitimate shot at winning NC year after year. Until Michigan figures out how to consistently pulling in 15-20 4/5 stars each class, retain them, and produce we will also be playing for second best...in the BIG.
January 4th, 2019 at 10:55 AM ^
We recruit at about the same level as Clemson or Oklahoma. They just have better schemes.
January 4th, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
Since 2015 Michigan has recruited 41 4 or 5 star players. Clemson has 35. It isn't talent.
January 4th, 2019 at 3:40 PM ^
harbaugh has to win, if he would have beat osu won big ten and got blown out by Clemson in playoff they would have maybe landed a few more top recruits,
osu loss was devastating to the program.
January 4th, 2019 at 1:57 AM ^
The offense will be different in 2020 because this will be Harbaughs last year at Michigan
January 4th, 2019 at 10:50 AM ^
Please, and who will replace him? The school has invested upwards of $15Mil.+ in this guy and his staff on an annual basis.
January 4th, 2019 at 8:57 AM ^
LOL. He has 3rd string 5* RBs. How hard is it to "change" with the times. He's just allowing his OCs to tweak the offense, depending on which 5* QB they happen to sign.