OT: Michigan or Ivy?
Greetings MGoFamily:
Apologies for a substantially off-topic post (and if this has been asked by others), but I value your opinion. My wife and I are both Michigan alums (LSA '92 for me), and (Med School '93 for her), and we're fortunate enough to have raised a kiddo who will be afforded some school choices. We live in the Detroit area and are thus "in-state" to Michigan.
My daughter is a prospective Engineering student, and while UM Engineering is the obvious choice for all kinds of reasons, her campus visit to Princeton pretty much blew her away. We knew her chances of getting in were small (she checks no diversity, financial hardship, legacy, pipeline school, or other compelling boxes), and so when she was admitted early action to Michigan Engineering and deferred on her early decision to Princeton, we assumed that was that. And we were happy.
But this past week, we were notified by Princeton that her deferment was actually a positive sign for their general admission process in April, and that she's legitimately on their radar, or she would've been outright denied admission. So she shouldn't lose hope. That was hard to hear since she hoped to either be accepted, or to simply move on.
So now, with Michigan accepting her, it's very difficult to wait another four months. My wife and I have sat down with her, and we believe the Michigan Engineering degree is strong enough that she could create any career path she chose with that background, and that Princeton would only provide a marginal name recognition advantage at the cost of waiting on pins/needles another four months, and then paying $70K/year, compared to Michigan in-state $30K.
So my question to you is simple:
If you got into Princeton and Michigan Engineering, and you lived in-state, which would you choose?
Thanks for your valuable insight.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:26 PM ^
I too have had this experience numerous times. It is infuriating. Half the time, I'm not sure if people are trying to just needle me.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:50 PM ^
Also Michigan is great but it doesn't really have the rep we think it does.
This may be true for football, but for academics, I absolutely disagree. As a Michigan native and double Michigan alum (BSE and JD) who moved to the West Coast to pursue a career, I've been surprised at the name recognition Michigan has and how impressed people here seem when I tell them I went to Michigan. I was also a participant in HAIL (the program in which Michigan Engineering alumni in various cities around the country interview undergraduate out-of-state applicants), and I was really impressed with the quality of applicants. About one quarter of the kids I interviewed were accepted and matriculated, and a few of those chose Michigan despite having been admitted to schools like Berkeley, UCLA, Pomona College, etc. Sure, we're not on the level of the upper-echelon Ivies or Stanford/CalTech/MIT, but I don't know any Michigan alums who think we're on that level.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:54 PM ^
Never in my life have I had someone mix up "Michigan" with "Michigan State" when I tell people where I went to university. I mean, I do say "The University Of Michigan" more often than not, to be fair, but I am sure even then we have far better brand recognition that....fuck, what is that place called again?
December 24th, 2018 at 4:02 PM ^
Agree completely. Never once had anyone confuse Michigan with MSU. Michigan has more living alumni than any other school. You can find alums all over the world and at all echelons of business and government.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:44 PM ^
Michigan for Engineering, no brainer.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:46 PM ^
Easy call. For engineering, Michigan is better.
December 24th, 2018 at 6:00 PM ^
Agreed, as someone who has worked for two prominent chip companies, I've run into plenty of fellow Michigan alumni and none from Princeton.
For engineering, a Michigan degree more than holds its own.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:48 PM ^
I graduated from Michigan’s aerospace engineering program a couple of years ago and I can’t imagine a better school to have gone to. The network and curriculum set you up for great career prospects. I have classmates that have gone on to work at Skunk Works, Orbital ATK, NASA, SpaceX and Boeing, just to name a few. Basically wherever you want to be, umich engineering can get you to. Additionally, the curriculum is extremely challenging and prepares you for both grad school and industry. I went on to do part time grad school at the University of Southern California and have been shocked at how much easier USC has been. I know USC is not an ivy, so that comparison may not be useful, but I believe that the combination of cost, campus life, curriculum, and the ability to set you up for the next 40 years makes Michigan engineering one of the best places to go in the country.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:48 PM ^
Ivy. I’m a Michigan grad who’s an ivy professor.
There is so much money for everything student related here. Much more than michgian (which itself is much better than Cal where I did my undergrad).
December 24th, 2018 at 3:28 PM ^
I live in the SF Bay Area and I continue to be amazed at how Berkeley manages to maintain its lofty reputation despite its struggles and challenges in so many areas. The school is perpetually broke and has had to scale back on basic services like trash collection. Its campus is dirty and crime-ridden. Its facilities leave much to be desired. The entire UC system, and UC-Berkeley in particular, has suffered for years from horrible mismanagement by clueless and incompetent administrators. A fellow Michigan Engineering alum I know who is doing his PhD at Berkeley tells me that class sizes in their intro UG computer science classes fill multiple auditoriums with video feeds because they can't afford to hire more professors.
Stanford, on the other hand, is legitimately the best university in the world, hands-down. But Berkeley? Massively overrated.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:07 PM ^
Cal was awful. I always tell people to go somewhere else.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:58 PM ^
The reason it maintains a lofty reputation is because the faculty there are the best in the world. Look at almost any department they have and they are top 10. Sure, CS classes are crowded, but that is true on *every* campus right now.
December 24th, 2018 at 5:36 PM ^
Actually, Cal has a really hard time holding on to elite faculty. I know a number of tenured folks who couldn’t wait to get out of there.
Cal trades on inertia. My first phd program was at Cal. I was the number one graduating senior in my Major at Cal. I’d never suggest anyone go to Cal assuming they had any other near- equivalent option.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:49 PM ^
As a proud and happy '06 Michigan Engineering alumni who's making a dream living, I'd say ABSOLUTELY try to get her into Princeton.
- The name recognition is absolutely different. Sure Michigan is great and all, but the Princeton brand is an internationally famous brand that will automatically make people think your daughter is absolutely one of the best and brightest
- Don't worry about tuition. Princeton has a 22 billion endowment with very small classes. She will probably get a ton of grants
- She will be able to make friends and network with other Princeton/Ivy classmates
- If she decides to switch majors for some reason, its still a Princeton degree.
- Better name recognition if she decides to go for grad school
- You won't regret trying later in life
In the end, she can't go wrong with either. At the same time, getting into Princeton is still going to be difficult. I'd say wait it out with very little expectation.
December 24th, 2018 at 5:19 PM ^
No expectation should be held. Deferment typically amounts to a very long "NO". And aboslutely don't take it personal. Most of the applicants getting rejected have outstanding scores and qualifications, many of whom will look the same to evaluators,...4.0 unweighted, 1600, 36, President of Class. Hence, unless your daughter has truly done something abundantly different, having taught Syrian refugee children how to swim, or started her own organic dairy farm, or found a means to biodegrade plastics,... don't be too optimistic. Everyone applying to these schools is exceptional, and some of them will have the opportunity to go to Michigan.
December 25th, 2018 at 10:03 PM ^
Well said! Expect nothing, but keep the door open! She will have a blast at Michigan and it will set her up for life.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:49 PM ^
If money isn’t a problem, Princeton. But seeing as how that kind of money is a problem for 99% of people, Michigan.
December 24th, 2018 at 2:49 PM ^
She's a female engineer. If she does well in school, she's gonna get a great job either place she goes. As someone currently going through the job recruiting process, girls in STEM fields get job offers thrown at them like crazy (yes, I'm salty). Save some money and keep her in state. She'll have more fun in Ann Arbor anyway
December 24th, 2018 at 2:51 PM ^
one thing yo need to do is check for financial aid at princeton. The Ivy League schools have their own version for financial aid. I have a player who i coach is going to penn to play football and his family got money even though they are pretty well off
December 24th, 2018 at 2:51 PM ^
High class problem to have.
One of my best friend's has a son facing a similar choice. I'd say pray about it and let the Good Lord shine a path forward.
Can't make a bad decision. I am a graduate from UM College of Engineering (BSChemEng91) fwiw.
Congrats to you and your wife and your impressive daughter.
God Bless and Merry Christmas! Go Blue!
December 24th, 2018 at 2:57 PM ^
My $.02.
Tell your daughter that she is an adult now and adults need to make difficult choices all the time. Some good choices, others not. As an adult she needs to think about this decision across a lot of different variables and assess what is best for her as she embarks on the rest of her life. Tell her that you’ll help answer any questions she has along the way, be them specifics or providing a general framework to help her navigate this decision. Then, regardless of her choice support her through thick and thin... unless she chooses Princeton, in which case disown her.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:07 PM ^
I told my son that his mom and I are supportive and very open-minded and that when he gets to college, we will be fine with him choosing whichever type of engineering major he wants, as long as it's computer or electrical.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:57 PM ^
kind of like henry ford's old line: you can have any color ford you want, as long as its black.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:01 PM ^
Congratulations to you and your daughter! Great to have options.
Ivy League schools are not known for their engineering programs. If your daughter is set on engineering, I would stick with Michigan. The added expense of Princeton isn't really worth the marginal bump in prestige. But if she's not 100% sure about engineering and wants to keep her options open, then Princeton might be worth it. The prestige of an upper-echelon Ivy League school coupled with the relationships she'll have the opportunity to build there (as well as its proximity to the major hubs on the east coast) would be invaluable in fields like finance, economics, public policy, etc.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:13 PM ^
But if she's not 100% sure about engineering and wants to keep her options open, then Princeton might be worth it.
Disagree per my BIL's Princeton experience.
He took a class and got a LOR from Ben Bernanke. That translated to interning at the White House economic team. Which has translated to being a banker on Wall Street, hedge funds, and private equity (yes, he couldn't decide what he wanted to do).
December 24th, 2018 at 4:29 PM ^
Why do you disagree? It sounds like you're agreeing with me.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:41 PM ^
Maybe with he's disagreeing that it "might" be worth it in that it absolutely IS worth it?
December 24th, 2018 at 3:02 PM ^
Priceton. I mean Princeton.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:08 PM ^
My son faced a similar choice about five years ago....he too was blown away by his visit. M threw a scholarship at him that made it the equivalent of in state.
No reason for haste. Wait to see if she gets into Princeton first.
Other factors:
What type of Engineering does she want to do/be? Princeton has an ORFE program that is top notch....does ‘Wall Street’ interest her?
Also it’s not only about Engineering per se...how are her people skills? Princeton might give her an edge here longer term.
Princeton is also a much smaller place and that may be a better environment for your daughter.
Either way she’ll be fine.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:09 PM ^
Since you’re in-state, Michigan is a pretty obvious choice to me. Plus once she decides on Michigan and has four months to make plans, if Princeton comes across with the admission, it’ll likely be a “Neat.” Moment and then moving on.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:10 PM ^
It depends on what the child is interested in. Unless she is determined to have the big college experience, then the answer is clear: she should go to Princeton. Michigan is awesome and I am so grateful to have gone there for my undergrad. I'm also glad I went to an Ivy for my graduate degree. One thing I learned there is that a degree from a school like Princeton does open more and different doors than even a Michigan degree. You also have the school size issue. At UM, you have the massive lecture halls, etc. At a smaller Ivy, you are more likely to interact with your professors. I wouldn't go to all the Ivy's (Yale, for instance, is a mess these days.) But Princeton is terrific. So is my grad alma mater, U Penn.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:11 PM ^
I chose UCLA for grad school over Princeton (because of the specific program’s professors) and regret it. I have never regretted going to Michigan for undergrad.
But grad school is different than undergrad. Have her go to Michigan so she can enjoy the education and sports, and then head to an Ivy for a grad degree if necessary.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:13 PM ^
We have a cube.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:13 PM ^
Tennessee
December 24th, 2018 at 3:13 PM ^
Gerald Ford is better than Woodrow Wilson. Ergo Michigan is the better choice.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:17 PM ^
I’ve been to both campuses; one for work, and one for school. I couldn’t wait to get off of the Princeton campus.
If kid wanted to be a physicist, then it’s a coin flip; otherwise, it’s a no brained for engineering — Meechigan.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:18 PM ^
Princeton is not as highly ranked in engineering as Michigan. I’m a doctoral student in electrical engineering. I did not do undergrad at Michigan. I never considered Princeton.
Her experience at Princeton would be very different than at Michigan. Princeton is a small ivy, while Michigan is Michigan. That said, people will still look at a Michigan engineering degree with extreme regard. When people learn where I’m getting a PhD, they look at me like I’m Superman.
If she’s interested in doing research, then Michigan hands down is the right choice. The engineering school is significantly larger than Princeton’s. There are many more choices in research here. Going to a small school means you’re limited to whatever the handful of professors there study, and additionally, getting a research position is much more difficult.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:22 PM ^
Is it possible she could play defensive tackle?
December 24th, 2018 at 3:24 PM ^
I am a Michigan engineering alum and loved my college experience with the combination of academics, Ann Arbor, and Michigan sports. I am currently semi-enjoying the experience at an Ivy for grad school, but it would not have been the right vibe for me as an undergrad.
When recruiting new engineers, Michigan has always been the top school we’ve targeted at every organization I’ve worked for even here on the east coast. Those in industry know how highly ranked Michigan engineering is. If she wants to venture out into something like consulting, or change career paths, a Princeton degree will always carry tremendous value.
My brother had a similar story to what you described: admitted at Michigan, deferred at an Ivy, planned to go to Michigan, then got the Ivy admission. He went to the Ivy as someone who would have gotten nothing out of the Michigan sports experience. College is where she will spend four formative and hopefully highly enjoyable years, the school’s cultural fit for her individually is important to consider.
TLDR: A Michigan engineering degree or any Princeton degree will set her up for success, which culture fits her personality better? If it is Princeton, is it so much of a better fit to be worth $160k? If grad school is in her future, $160k could cover the whole thing.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:28 PM ^
December 24th, 2018 at 3:29 PM ^
(Disclaimer: BSE Aero alum who works with tons of Ivy Leaguers)
Michigan's Engineering program boasts some of the most esteemed alumni of any program. ANY. It's almost stupid how well-regarded Michigan Engineering is.
The cachet that Princeton will offer may be slightly more, but only amongst people who are ignorant and confined to the Coasts.
If this were MIT or Caltech, it's a different story. Michigan 100%.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:58 PM ^
But Michigan isn't the center of the universe
THOU HAST BLASPHEMED
December 27th, 2018 at 2:02 PM ^
It is amazing to me that this isn't just the default position.
Seriously, I do not care where my kids go to college so long as they are going somewhere that works for them. It is baffling to me that so many of you seem to have created this atmosphere where Michigan is the expectation for your children... look, I graduated a decade ago and I live in Ann Arbor and it is not even remotely the same place. My future kids will not have the same experiences to me except in a very broad sense that would be true no matter where they go to college (most schools feature lifelong friendships being forged in a maelstrom of alcohol).
I plan on placing no pressure on my kids. They will learn to cheer for Michigan sports teams, that it is where mom and dad went to school, that it's a good school. They will also learn that there are many other fish in the sea, that every college in the country has a notable alumni section on their Wikipedia page. If they don't get in, if they get in and go elsewhere, if they never even want to apply... it's all good.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:47 PM ^
I wouldn’t even consider out of state tuitition, and getting admitted to U of M in state is a no-brainer. But that’s me.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:51 PM ^
I’m not an engineer, so it is the historic winged football helmets that would be the determining factor for me.
No, wait...
December 24th, 2018 at 4:03 PM ^
lol... I wonder how many people will understand this reference.
December 24th, 2018 at 3:54 PM ^
Tuition is a big factor is making decisions. Saddling a student with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans is a tough way to start a career. I would not do that.
The real pros of going to an Ivy is who you go to school with. A lot of students from east coast families with money. You can make wonderful and life long connections. I also think they teach you to dream and do. The risk of academic distress because of a lack of focus on your studies is less at a small school. There is a lot to do in Ann Arbor and some of it interferes with class and studying.
In the end, you cannot go wrong. The Michigan engineering degree is powerful. Engineering is a great profession and can lead to big things in the financial world too as engineers can do the difficult math.
Good luck with your decision.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:02 PM ^
I chose Princeton in 1982 over Michigan Aerospace Engineering. I ended up becoming an orthopedic surgeon. Princeton is fantastic. Small, beautiful, and fun. In the field of medicine, I don't think it matters what undergraduate school you attend. At the U. of Chicago school of medicine, there were many U of M students. They were great people. Also Princeton was 10-0 this year. They run run a no huddle spread which is fun for the fans. If money is a concern, Michigan for sure. If having teams to support later in life matters, then Michigan. I just wanted to say that Princeton was a great experience. You can't go wrong either way.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:06 PM ^
I was accepted into Princeton and Michigan Engineering a while back, and chose Princeton. Like others have said, their endowment is huge and I got lots of grants. It actually cost a little bit less for me to attend Princeton despite me being in-state. I don't regret it one bit. Some of the posters talked about how Michigan's engineering school is better, which is true for some of the engineering subspecialties.
But it is not true for some VERY notable exceptions:
Computer Science: Princeton is one of the best CS programs in the country, up there with MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon. It is the unquestioned leader in CS theory.
Operations Research and Financial Engineering: A unique major at Princeton, which basically boils down to statistics and finance. Here, too, Princeton is one of the very best schools in the country.
Even if you aren't in one of these two fields, employment is still very, very, good. Many students are able to get jobs paying six figures out of college. Also, if your goal is research/grad school, coming from a prestigious undergrad helps a lot.
However, if you want to do one of the less popular engineering specialties, Princeton may not be the best. I had a friend who liked robotics who kind of regretted coming because we don't have a strong robotics program, which hurt him when he applied to robotics graduate schools.
To summarize, if you know what you want to do specifically (and it is not in CS or finance), then choose Michigan. Otherwise, Princeton is the choice.
December 24th, 2018 at 4:10 PM ^
I think you accidentally answered your own question.... the 4 month wait would be too much for me too. If she is truly thinking it’s a 50/50 then the ability to plan ahead and move forward tilts it to UM.
But, man, the $160k difference in 4 years makes the parents’ choice a no-brainer. Hopefully the three of you end up on the same page and all are truly excited about the final result