Some interesting perspective from Joel Klatt: combine, Joe Milton, helmet comms/sign stealing
From yesterday - Joel Klatt talks about:
- JJ combine: JJ perhaps a top 10 pick and poised to have a good NFL career
- Joe Milton combine: great arm strength - may not translate to a solid NFL showing
- rule change to allow helmet comms (~ 44 minute mark): everyone supports it publicly but privately they don't want it because everyone steals signs
cool
Milton as a late day 2/day 3 pick is a nice lottery ticket but someone is going to take him way too early and he's going to be in trouble.
I don't have a horse in the "Milton" discussion. What I wonder is - how effectively does he throw an Out Route?
His arm is a cannon - no question there. The question will be his touch - since playing QB isn't just about velocity - it's fitting a pass into a window - at a velocity where the ball can actually be caught.
Wishing him well - and, it will be interesting to see where JJ goes in the draft.
Jeff George spent 14 years in the league because lots of teams took a chance on his cannon of an arm. Not a lot seasons were great, but it got his foot in the door.
George had an almost Marino level quick release and was fairly accurate. His attitude and work ethic were the problem. Imagine Stafford if all his coaches and teammates hated him or Jay Cutler without funny memes.
I don't think Milton is as good at football or as terrible a human being as George was during his playing days.
Jay Schroeder or Jim Drunkenmiller might be better comps as both could effortlessly throw the ball deep to no one in particular.
George was light years ahead of Milton in every respect as a passer. I watch the QBs throw in the pregame drills and Milton was frequently missing guys in those.
I harbor no major ill will toward him but he's had years now to show he can be accurate throwing the ball downfield and it's not happened yet. I doubt it'll start in the NFL. Even at the combine he was missing guys on the intermediate stuff with some consistency.
Lots of guys are appealing to NFL because of physical tools but I doubt he'll ever get the accuracy to the point where he'd be effective in the NFL.
JaMarcus Russell?
I don't need to dump on Milton anymore and I actually think his time at Tennessee has clarified for scouts what he is and what he isn't. Could he figure it out? Sure. I was someone who never thought Josh Allen would turn his inaccurate cannon arm into a successful NFL career and here we are. I wouldn't hate for a team I root for to gamble on him in the middle rounds.
I'm optimistic with JJ for all the reasons we all know. With that being said, being a successful NFL QB might be the hardest job in all of sports. There are probably only 20 of them in the world and just when you think you've figured out who they are, the list changes again. Baker Mayfield was a laughing stock....then a guy who lead a team to the playoffs and threw for 350 yards in two playoff games. Russel Wilson was a hero for years and now is unemployed. I grew up in the Henson/Brady era at Michigan and no one would have ever predicted how their NFL careers would have played out. I still hope JJ gets picked in the middle of the round so he's on a better team that can help him succeed.
JJ in Seattle with MacDonald makes a lot of sense to me. Plus he could sit behind Geno for a little bit if he needed to. That team is consistently in contention to make the playoffs every year, even when they don't ultimately make it.
" With that being said, being a successful NFL QB might be the hardest job in all of sports."
The only QB pick that succeeds at above 50% is the #1 pick.
Not first round. Just #1.
1st rounders as a whole succeed less than 50% of the time, and the number falls off severely after the 1st round.
If "everyone steals signs" (which I'm highly dubious on, and I think Klatt really doesn't have much empirical evidence for this claim of his) ----- why would they be against helmet comms?
If "everyone steals signs", nobody is gaining a competitive advantage from it, and having helmet comms just means teams don't have to spend their time stealing signs.
In MLB, Oakland had a "moneyball" advantage for a few years when they were the only ones doing it. Same with teams employing the shift earlier than others. But once everyone does it ....... no marginal advantage any more.
Because some teams are better at stealing signs and don't want to lose the advantage it gives them. It's harder to do than, say, implementing the shift in baseball.
The majority of FBS teams aren't National Title contenders with big budgets and 532 different analysts working on their staff. The membership is still mostly "Group of 5" plus "lower-tier Power 5" teams --- they are the numerical majority.
I have a hard time believing they are the group that "think they are better at stealing signs and don't want to lose the advantage it gives them." Those folks already think the big-money programs have every single advantage against them, including this one (spending more $$$$$ on people to steal signs).
If/when it comes to a vote, I'd 100% expect the helmet communication to pass --- easily.
Anyway --- electric manager/catcher/pitcher communication has become an established part of the college baseball world over the last couple years. That in a sport where sign-stealing is/was a thing too. They're evolving. College football will too.
Klatt said he expects it to pass. What point are you trying to make? That it's illogical to steal signs and want to be able to continue stealing signs?
It was already pointed out to you that the teams stealing signs do it because they think they're getting an advantage, even realizing the other teams are doing it too. But they just think they're better at it.
There are probably lots of teams that don't do it and wish it would go away, or do it but know they suck and wish it would go away.
As Klatt said, there's momentum for the change now. Do you know why there's momentum for the change? Do you?! It's because many butt hurt Big Ten teams gave up the game by having to be outraged about huddling and sign stealing and player safety (lol) and now they can't go back and pretend they're okay with it. This isn't hard to understand.
As for baseball, there was no college scandal, but there was an MLB one. Perhaps that was the momentum there? Or perhaps they are just more mature. The fact that baseball has already done this and football hasn't should make it more obvious that football coaches were the reason it didn't happen before.
You are the most contrarian MF I've ever seen. It's exhausting.
You calling me an MFer --- that's fine. It doesn't hurt my feelings!
Anyway, since you engaged me in discussion, some questions ---- do you concede there might be some validity to what I ask? You simply take Joel Klatt at his word, as regards "everyone steals signs?" If so, why? What makes him the expert on that regard?
No, in fact it's precisely the opposite of what you said. Coaches look at sign stealing as a place where an advantage can be earned, because it's legal. Everyone does it, meaning some are good at it and some aren't. By taking this away via the helmets, that's one less area where a coach could gain a legal edge.
Regarding Klatt, all he did was open his ears. The simp/tribal moron crowd may have made it difficult to hear, but the vast majority of players, formers players and coaches scoffed at the scandal.
Sign-stealing is legal in college baseball (as long as you don't use outside technology), some teams are good at it (observant teams have found ways to steal signs from the dugout and without a guy on 2nd base), and some teams aren't.
And by taking sign-stealing away via manager/pitcher/catcher communication, that's one less area where a college baseball manager/team could gain a legal edge.
That's your 1st paragraph, just re-worded for a different sport. Yet college baseball recently allowed electronic communication.
I may be wrong, but I'll be surprised if this football proposal doesn't pass easily.
he's not contrarian. he's a PSU fan who can't quite cope with their second-tier status... and, can't release his pearls, clutched so hard due to Conor Stallions...
Let me explain (as I've done before) my POV:
- I've never claimed "Michigan isn't 2023 National Champions." They won their games.
- That said --- yes, I have said that teams do have a right to be upset about Connor Stalions* showing up on the sideline of the opponent of a future U-M opponent. Absolutely. Doing that was galactic-levels of wreckless, inane and stupid on Stalions' part, in terms of its potential disrailing the whole season.
If it was discovered that MSU had one of their analysts dressed up on the ECU sideline the following day, U-M folk would have been VERY unhappy. Arguing otherwise: come on.
--------
* at this point, I think it's fair to say it was him. If it wasn't, U-M and/or Stalions would have shown that he was at Schembechler Hall, or his cell phone was pinging off an AA cell phone tower, or a receipt from him at an AA Chipotle that evening. Proving it wasn't Stalions --- isn't that difficult in our current era.
Derailing the whole season? I guess you missed the punishment precedent where a Baylor assistant coach (not a low level analyst, an assistant coach) got a slap on the wrist for being on the sidelines of a future opponent. The program, so far as we can tell, received zero punishment outside of that coach.
This is also the only real thing worth crying about in a vacuum, but of course you point to something completely inconsequential. "Teams" don't have a right to be upset, maybe one team does.
Dude, Stalions was stealing signs, real time for CMU. Since it was a Friday night game, he was moonlighting and explains his disguise to hide himself from Michigan finding out. There's no way in hell that CMU would let Stalions on to the sideline if he was not working for them. Anyways, most teams change their signs multiple time through the season, since some can diagnose signs through game film or even network television.
We would not care if MSU was stealing our signs, since we would still beat the shit out of them, 49-0!
If it was discovered that MSU had one of their analysts dressed up on the ECU sideline the following day, U-M folk would have been VERY unhappy. Arguing otherwise: come on.
No, I would have been DEEPLY amused that the same place going through the Mel Tugger scandal decided to do THAT. It would have been the funniest "sparty no!" of all time.
If it was discovered that MSU had one of their analysts dressed up on the ECU sideline the following day, U-M folk would have been VERY unhappy. Arguing otherwise: come on.
Coming on: I would have been very amused, maybe a little miffed, but not outraged unless someone could show he got a huge edge somehow. That was the one thing that was always missing from the whole kerfuffle, solid proof that Michigan got all that much of an advantage from whatever Stalions did.
Oh stop it dude. Clearly a lot of teams do this.
You know, they make a cream for chapped body parts these days.
I think you're being a bit of a nit...picker ;)
"Everyone" may not steal signs, but the practice does seem quite widespread. At least 4 Big 10 teams are confirmed to have stolen signs before the games they played in, 5 including Michigan with Stalions.
Also, I think the people complaining about helmet comms probably haven't thought it thru that much. Like much of the scandal - Stalions doing it, people whining about it, Pettiti changing rules to enforce it, Pettiti ignoring that some of his loudest complainers were outed as doing it and charging ahead with his enforcement, people still talking about it after Michigan won, "fair and square," - nobody is really thinking thru quite a lot of available evidence that this won't affect the game very much, except for a few staffers at every....er, excuse me, at a widespread number of programs
Sign stealing broke everyone's brains, including ours. Me and you and everyone on this site and in CFB. A guy broke rules, he paid a penalty, the people in charge of him paid a penalty, and there was lots of shouting. Oh and now it's not going to be a thing at all going forward.
OK, fair enough ....... it is "confirmed" that "at least 4 Big Ten teams have stolen signs before the games they played in."
But who exactly confirmed that?
I'm going to be excused by TIMMMAAY of being a contrarian again, but if the "who" is "someone associated with the University of Michigan", IMO it's not unfair to not take that at 100% complete face value without asking any addiitonal questions.
Wait wait wait. You’re taking the position that sign stealing is not common and is almost completely unique to Michigan? Absolutely none of the reporting—going back to the stories about Venables at Clemson—even remotely supports that claim.
I don't feel like googling the articles, but the who was the AP, SI and Yahoo Sports. I believe their source was a former Purdue staffer. Illinois confirmed they stole signs prior ti gameday but insisted they did it "the right way,." So that one the source is literally the culprit themselves
Sorry, this isn't a Michigan source. I'll Google at least Wetzel's opinion piece to jog your memory, but this wasn't something made up by Michigan... This was something confirmed. I like you bud, but you got the facts wrong here
The same people that confirmed Stalions at CMU, the manifesto, Warde head of the playoff committee after he lead a dirty football program. Lots of confirming that doesnt make sense. That is kind of our point.
"At least 4 Big 10 teams are confirmed to have stolen signs before the games they played in"
They are?
OSU giving team 40 teams Michigan's signs is ONE team stealing signs.
Because every coach thinks they're good at it
Corum looked like the smoothest back out there, and has a chance to be the first RB taken! Would surprise me, but great for Blake.
Proving the actual NCAA motto is “Just don’t get caught.”
Remember, the "sign stealing" controversy wasn't about sign stealing, which everyone does and is perfectly legal. The controversy was over us having someone attend other teams' football games. And as we all know, college football games are intimate, private affairs...
#VastNetwork
I don't know how much Milton Klatt actually watched. He's super high on Nix, but low on Milton. Fine, but then knocked Joe's ability to layer and add touch and then said, 'just look at the tape'. Joe showed that he was capable of making every throw during the combine and hit his go routes in stride. Meanwhile, Nix's combine tape didn't really dispel the arm strength questions. Nix completed the first go in stride, was like 5+ yards short on his next go route, 5+ yards long on his third go, and then well short on the comeback route after that. But, he has “quiet feet” so he’s a first rounder
I watched just about every game he played in and he's solid. People talk about his overthrows, but he had a great throwing session in the combine. He had a really solid career and unfortunately for Joe, his legacy is stuck to four games; Wisconsin 2020, Rutgers 2020, Bowling Green 2021, and Pitt 2021.
His numbers in those games were 32 for 66 (48.5%) 376 1 td 2 ints 95.3 qbr.
Since then, he was a 64% passer with 32 tds, 5 ints and 155.9 qbr at Tennessee.
His 2020 numbers before his thumb injury at Michigan were 65-107 (60.7%) 869 4 tds, 2 ints and 137.6 qbr.
There's zero doubt in my mind that the torn thumb ligaments, which required surgery, killed his performance and impacted perception. He's a really solid qb and better than he gets credit for. But that's life in the big leagues.
rule change to allow helmet comms (~ 44 minute mark): everyone supports it publicly but privately they don't want it because everyone steals signs
I feel like this was always fairly obvious to the fans outside of weeping Big Ten schools. Stallions just went so far out of line that he let OSU make a scene of it and now the fun is ruined for everyone. Absolutely there's a bunch of coaches out there pissed at Stallions and OSU for ruining the fun
For 5+ years, how has no one figured out that the Joe Milton Experience™ is practice footage of this guy bombing throws like 75+ yards, in direct contrast to what he does in an actual game experience? Seriously, it feels like another round of gauging Brent Petway's pro potential based on his windmill dunks in pregame warmups.
JJ needs to work his 20 yard outs as well. He only just got the seam down.
There is an it factor to NFLing. Some of "it" is good fortune (good line, coach, scheme) but mostly it is work and instinct. Purdy, Allen, Brady...you don't find those guys in the combine. They surface in practice.
I'm sorry to have lost Milton to Tennessee, but...yeah...we dodged a bullet there. A couple good games. The attitude was interesting. But it is about as hard to find QBs in the NFL as it is left tackles in high school. Milton could still figure it out. I just wish the college career was longer. Maybe summer league will become more developmental as the college game shortens pays portals declares. Whatever is happening with CFB.
Just finished watching replay of game vs Penn State and Klatt went out of his way to to agree with frames janklin on calls not being made by refs against Michigan. Klatt was also a major critic of Michigan's handling of the so called signgate along with picking Penn State, Ohio State, and Alabama to beat Michigan.
FU Klatt.
It's me not you.
Not much new from Klatt here if you are following these stories already.
Meh.
I find it very entertaining how this Joe Milton song and dance seems to happen every off season. It seems like only yesterday where people were losing their shit over Milton's performance at the Manning Passing Camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceNk9CkPvLg
Mark Schlereth talking about JJ. Thought this was good stuff.
It's a very strange thing to me that everyone would not want helmet comms b/c they steel signs.
Those who steel signs effectively/prevent their signs from being stolen would be hurt by a change in rules; those who do it poorly would benefit by making it impossible. It can't be the case that everyone is above average at it.
Now, maybe it's not that they're good at it, it's just they enjoy doing it. OK, fine, but you have to devote time and resources to it (and time and resources of avoiding getting your signs stolen). So, don't bitch about not having enough time.
If I were a coach, I'd be glad to have one less thing to have to worry about.
I suspect it's the Lake Wobegon effect...
"a place where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average"
While very few coaches are actually above average at it... but they all think they're above average at it.
Better late than never...