mGrowOld

August 16th, 2023 at 4:24 PM ^

I read a great book several years ago titled "What If."  It asked historians to produce a counterfactual reality based on some significant military or historical event having a completely different outcome: what if the battle of little round top had gone to the south, what if Luther doesnt post his thesis, what if Nazi Germany developed the Atomic bomb first and so on.  Terribly interesting to me.

Anyways a Michigan counterfactual I've always wondered about is "what if Pryor goes to Michigan and not OSU in 2008?"   RichRod has his QB and there's no way he goes 4-8 with TP at the helm so the transition is much smoother and the natives arent out for blood year two.  Shafer probably doesnt get removed as D Coordinator and the 2009 season most likely ends with a bowl, not 5-7. Similarly, OSU without Pryor looks very different for the next four years and not for the better.

That one decision changed a LOT of future outcomes IMO.

True Blue Grit

August 16th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^

I agree about the fascinating history what-if's.  There's one author who projected the possible outcomes if Archduke Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated, sparking WWI.  He made a great case that it would have re-written the subsequent history of Europe including avoiding both the world wars, no Holocaust, and a much better geopolitical situation today.  OTOH, some awful war could have started in some other way!

As for Terrible Pryor, I'm not so sure he would've changed our trajectory enough given other talent deficits on the roster.  But certainly much better than we saw with Sheridan/Threet.  

PopeLando

August 16th, 2023 at 5:50 PM ^

This exact hypothetical was part of my history degree.

You have to decide what kind of historian you are: do you subscribe to the Heroes Theory, where the *specific people* are of supreme importance; for instance, if you went back in time and killed Hitler the Holocaust would be avoided?

Or are you a Processes Historian, where the cumulative “weight” of trends and attitudes creates the situations that just so happen to have some dude’s name attached to them?

I’m firmly in the latter camp. I believe that stuff like WW1, WW2, the Holocaust, the Cold War, etc., would have found other ways of occurring. But they would have happened in some form or another. The network of mutual defense treaties was a time bomb in the late 1800s/early 1900s. The dogshit resolution to WW1 set the stage for WW2. Europeans HATE(D) Jews - I think the most surprising thing about the Holocaust is that France didn’t get there first.

One of my history professors told me “to understand any specific action, you have to look at - at LEAST - 400 years of relevant regional history.” That was in a Middle East course, so slide rules may apply in other parts of the world.

SalvatoreQuattro

August 16th, 2023 at 7:02 PM ^

I think it’s both. 
 

Germany was a new country albeit with old cultures. The idea of a fuhrer, a Germanic superhero to unify and elevate Germany to first among nations had great appeal among many Germans in the decades prior to Hitler. Bismarck could be considered the first of these men. Wilhelm aspired to be, but was lacking. Then came the chaos after WWI in Weimar Germany.

Germany in the 20’s experienced much tumult in the 20’s and early 30’s.Many Germans were looking for stability and national greatness.Hitler recognized that and made direct appeals to that need.

After the putsch and prison Hitler changed tactics. He would use democracy to destroy democracy. Through propaganda, agitation, and especially in his speeches, Hitler would win millions to the Nazi cause by reviling Jews, Marxists, Capitalists, Slavs, the French,and various others. He promised greatness beginning with a revolutionary struggle vs the “Jewish-Bolsheviks” he blamed for Germany’s defeat in WWI.

His ability to manipulate and excite masses of humans was critical to the rise of Nazism.While he was aided by assistance of people like Goebbels and Riefenstahl, Hitler with his ability to win extreme devotion and to unify disparate parts of the German Right was the essential man. Without him there is no Third Reich or Holocaust.

As we know antisemitism is baked into the Western mind(Thanks, Christianity!) so it is possible that a genocide of Jews could have occurred, but I have my doubts. The previous 900 years saw Jews be massacred, ghettoized, deported en masse from countries, denied basic rights, and subject to crudely vile conspiracy theories that accused them of appalling crimes. All this yet no one attempted or thought to annihilate the Jews as a race. That was the German contribution to Western antisemitism.

The post-WWI Marxist uprisings in Berlin and Munich happened to be led mostly by Jews. This was a crucial and intellectually solidifying moment for Hitler and other rabid antisemites. Jews were no longer just a foreign people who didn’t belong. They were an existential threat to the the German Volk. They were an enemy that had to be removed from Germany and Europe permanently.

Even with this desire to “cleanse” Germany and eventually Europe of Jews, the Nazis didn’t  gravitate towards genocide immediately after seizing power. What they did was steadily tighten the screws on German Jews to encourage them to immigrate.(But only after they had surrendered their wealth) The Nazis initially wanted to send Jews to Madagascar. But that wasn’t really practicable. Migration to Palestine was severely limited by the British(for fear of Arabs rioting).Europe, US, Canada, and the ANZACs refused to admit anything more than relatively small number of Europe’s Jews.

After the war started and Germany came into control of millions of Jews across mostly Eastern and Central Europe they altered their thinking on the “Jewish Question”. Germans placed millions of Europe’s Jews into concentration camps or ghettos. They wanted them separated from the rest of the populations of the conquered countries.In the months leading up to the start of Operation Barbarossa the Germans planned to use five Einsatzgruppen(they were deployed in Poland at the beginning of the war albeit not quite as lethal as they would be later)to carry out mass executions of Jews, Romani, Soviet Commissars, and recalcitrant native populations. This is the beginning of the killing stage of the Holocaust. 1.5 million Jews would be murdered between June 27, 1941 and January of 1942.  In January of 1942 in Wannsee, a suburb of a Berlin, a conference would be held by SS Gruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich  where the establishment of the death camps and the Final Solution was officially enacted.

Without Hitler there was no World War Two in Europe or Holocaust. Hitler emerged from anonymity and from the foulest, lowest level of European and German culture to lead both into an apocalyptic war that destroyed tens of millions of lives.
 

The structure of Nazi Germany was built upon the fuhrerprinczep(Leader Principle) where everyone worked to fulfill the leader’s desires. Working towards the Fuhrer is the phrase used to describe how the Nazis ran the government.  Hitler had the government structured in such a way that no one person could hope to create a power base strong enough to challenge him. The Nazis had competing overlapping agencies that frequently quarreled over who had power over what. The result of this is that Hitler was critical to the functioning of the Nazi state. Without him Nazi Germany would have collapsed into many fiefdoms fighting each other for power. Hitler was essential to what happened and he was a product of numerous historical processes in German and European history.

brad

August 16th, 2023 at 11:37 PM ^

I don't believe the Great War was avoidable.  Considering the setup of treaties, the very real animosity between Germans and French at the time, and how very easy it was to start that war, I would suggest that any historical study on what if WWI didn't happen has to be flawed.  WWI, in a very similar form to what it actually was, was inevitable.

Just to touch on the treaties alone.  If I remember correctly Queen Victoria and Otto von Bismarck had the whole European continent tied up in treaties that were juuuuust right to maintain stability.  But those two shuffled off the scene and the treaties became more handcuffs than safety net in the hands of the comparably very poor diplomats that were running things in the 1910's.  In fact, you could probably argue that the treaties themselves actually caused the war.

Amazinblu

August 16th, 2023 at 5:16 PM ^

I believe he was interested in Civil Engineering - which was his rationale for choosing the Tide.

When looking at a University's entire / overall Engineering program - Alabama's is ranked in the Top 100.   Tied for 99th.   Michigan's is ranked 7th overall.  

And, though I do not have specific data on Bama's ranking in Civil Engineering - Michigan's Civil Engineering department is ranked 5th - and, I can confirm that Bama's Civil department is not ranked above Michigan's.

(The data above is from US News and World Report.)

Jordan2323

August 16th, 2023 at 5:09 PM ^

I’m about 95% over it myself. I get sucked back in from time to time, depending on the recruit and the team needs. It’s much better being on this side of it than wearing out the F5 button all of the time and getting bent out of shape over every kid’s decision. Sadly I am 45 and it took me until about 2-3 years ago to get over all of it. 

mGrowOld

August 16th, 2023 at 4:08 PM ^

I think I speak for virtually everyone here when I say definitely, positively, most assuredly, without doubt, hesitation, equivacation and with all the assurance of the Lord God above us all that the twins will be coming here this fall.

Or, on the other hand, they may not.

Amazinblu

August 16th, 2023 at 5:58 PM ^

Go Blue ... Go Blue... it sounds twice as nice.

My twins are "boy and girl" - so, it might be a slightly different dynamic than you and your brother - however, a very special bond - nonetheless.

If I may - I have a question for you.   Are you and your brother the "same" - or "opposite" handed?   So, are you a combination of a rightie and a leftie - or both the same?

My theory is - the majority of twins are "opposite" handed - and, that dominant side develops prior to birth because you're pushing each other away to "find a bit more room".

huntmich

August 16th, 2023 at 4:17 PM ^

I'm pretty confident in the ability of this coaching staff to take a group of 30 high school seniors and turn 10-15 of them into amazing football players. If these twins fit the mold and they want to join that squad, I'd love for them to join. If they want to be somewhere else, I wish them the best of luck.

lilpenny1316

August 16th, 2023 at 4:22 PM ^

My uneducated guess: They will "re-open" their recruitment so they can announce their commitment to Kentucky together, in front of a live, hometown audience.