The person who began our descent into mediocrity, but gets none of the blame: Lloyd Carr
For the past 12 years, we've been passing the buck on why we can't beat OSU. It's RichRod, it's Hoke, it's JH, etc.
However, the more and more we struggle, it becomes clear that Carr was responsible for cratering the program in the first place, and no one has been able to clean up his mess since. He wasted his last five years in the program by becoming complacent and too loyal to his assistants, and clearly fell behind the curve on things like the spread. He also wasted insane amounts of NFL-caliber talent, such as (but not limited to) Mike Hart, LaMarr Woodley, Steve Breaston, Mario Manningham, Chris Perry, Jake Long, Leon Hall, etc. He quickly fell behind Tressel in coaching and recruiting, and the end was near.
But his crime wasn't struggling against OSU, but rather what he did when it was finally his time to step down. From interfering with the coaching search, to encouraging players to transfer when RR was incoming, to promoting his buddy Hoke when the job came open again, to many other transgressions, he's clearly set the program up to fail in his image.
I know a lot of people love to praise Carr as a "class act", and in many ways his upstanding work for things like Mott and helping his proteges and players indicate that he's a decent human. But his meddling in the program set us up for a decade of failure, and to remove us from the elite of college football. He deserves a ton of the blame that we've only won once since he's left, and it might be too much for any coach, even JH to resurrect.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:03 AM ^
JFC, shut up
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
Why should he shut up? What he says is all true. He wanted his guy...DeBord or English...to replace him. And when that didn't happen he sulked and acted out.
Lloyd Carr is an excellent human being and was a very good coach for the first two thirds of his tenure. But his actions around the coaching change in 07 has been a stain on his reputation.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:59 PM ^
And yet it had absolutely no bearing on the result of the 2019 OSU-Michigan game.
December 2nd, 2019 at 1:03 PM ^
Actually he did.
December 2nd, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^
I mean if you genuinely want to re-litigate all this stuff, I think the revelations of what happened at Arizona with Rich Rodriguez shed a lot of light on why Carr had such an immediate about face on him.
December 2nd, 2019 at 5:24 PM ^
RR never smelled right from the beginning.
An impromptu 2 AM meeting at a diner in the middle of nowhere with the Michigan SD and President raises more red flags than the People's Liberation Army.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:16 PM ^
But it’s such a fucking, shitty tired take. What other fan base sits around and goes “Oh that guy who won a NC and has more wins against our arch rivals than our last 3 coaches combined is the REAL reason we still aren’t relevant 13 years after he hung it up.” Carr accomplished things at UM that Harbaugh can only dream about so far.
And before anyone says any of that “OSU wasn’t as good back then” bullshit, you need to just GTFO with that nonsense. Off the top of my head I can list Eddie George, Joey Galloway, Terry Glenn, David Boston, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clemens, Orlando Pace, Shawn Springs, Andy Katzenmoyer, Mike Vrabel......those teams were loaded with studs.
Since the mid 90s OSU has generally had better players on their squads than we have, yet this “talent gap” bullshit didn’t seem to be a problem with Lloyd being able to play them even most years.
Lloyd‘s seven losses to OSU were by a total of 60 points, an average of 8.5 points per loss. Harbaugh’s 5 losses have been by a total of 95 points, an average of 19 points per loss, which could easily be higher if Meyer and Day hadn’t called off the dogs the past 2 years.
So not only is Harbaugh losing, he’s not even keeping it fucking close compared to Lloyd’s losses. Oh yeah and Lloyd, you know, actually beat Ohio State 6 times as well! Unless Harbaugh stays at UM for another 15-20 years and the 5 star magic fairies give him the power to rip those recruits away from OSU, Bama and Clemson, he doesn’t have a shot in hell at 6 wins vs the Buckeyes.
But, yeah, Lloyd is the reason..........
December 3rd, 2019 at 12:55 AM ^
Dude, bad take. College football offenses have changed dramatically since the days Lloyd Carr was in charge, so don’t waste our time citing statistics about how Harbaugh has done against OSU compared to Lloyd—they’re absolutely meaningless. They’re not even playing the same game any more. Ala-fucking-Bama is giving up 40+ points in a game. Besides, I shudder to think how many points Michigan would give up if Carr had to defend against the current version of OSU. Do you not remember how poorly Carr stacked up against what at the time were perceived to be extraordinary offenses—I’m talking about Syracuse in ‘98 and Oregon in ‘03? Brutal to even think about.
December 3rd, 2019 at 2:23 AM ^
Yeah stats and numbers can be such a pain in the ass sometimes.
So in the last 25 years Ohio State’s offense has evolved to be more high scoring.......got it.
By that logic, shouldn’t Michigan’s offense have also evolved to be more high scoring so that, even if overall scoring has gone up, the margin of victory/defeat still remains fairly constant?
Gee, I wonder who is to blame for the fact our offense still looks stuck in the 1990s......Must be Lloyd I guess.
December 3rd, 2019 at 2:44 AM ^
Offense has got mojo these days.
I'm looking forward to it.
And defense is *typically* great -- just not against OSU.
I'm thinking we get there.
December 3rd, 2019 at 9:33 AM ^
As much as I can’t believe I’m saying this, a lot of that mojo was due to Patterson’s performances over the last part of the season. We still can’t run the ball consistently worth shit.
I’m not altogether that confident whoever is QB next season will continue that trend. At least not until we drop a few games and are once again fighting from behind.......Even though it won’t happen, I Personally think sitting Patterson and playing McCaffrey in the bowl game would be more beneficial for next season. A QB with a complicated offense making his first start is tough enough. Making that first start at a place like UW makes it an even taller order.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:03 AM ^
I’ll never forgive him for letting Ohio State pass us by light years.
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:27 PM ^
Yeah and John Cooper sat around holding his pud as he allowed Michigan to race past them for the better part of 13 seasons.......It took Jim Tressel all of one season to put an end to that dominance.
Meanwhile, we’re on our 3rd coach, the SAVIOR nonetheless, who haven’t been able to stop what Tressel started 19 fucking years ago.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:04 AM ^
Oh cool, a new angle that we haven't discussed before.
Yes, I know it's true, but I'm still pissed off so it's not helping.
December 2nd, 2019 at 10:39 AM ^
FWIW if there are two people who had a worse football weekend than us I'd sure like to meet them. Between Michigan getting curb-stomped by the fucking Buckeyes (again) and then the Browns choking up a chance for playoff relevance in Pittsburgh (again) I was seriously questioning my life choices in actually giving a shit about the stupid game.
Then add in that douche Mineral King going after you and it was the cherry on my misery sundae.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:12 AM ^
That was the worst game I have ever watched. This is the worst coached, most immature, and most unprepared team I've ever seen wear this uniform. Considering the last 20 years of shit sandwiches we have had to eat, that is saying something.
Our head coach wearing a t-shirt that 20 year olds wear on their way to a kegger is a new low point.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:25 AM ^
Michigan alum, Cleveland born and raised (and back there now)
Kitchens is awful. Say what you will about Gregg Willaims but he would have a disciplined team out there. I was against his promotion from the beginning and that has seem justified each and every week.
And sure, I may be biased about losing Pep for Odell, but we clearly aren't getting the most out of OBJ here. What a waste.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:29 AM ^
Nothing has killed us more than the Zeitler/Vernon trade. Vernon does absolutely nothing, and the O-line has cratered without Zeitler.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:51 AM ^
At least the Clowns have/had a chance to make the playoffs, even if it is once every 7 years. The Lions in general have no chance.
BTW, I agree with the "It's Lloyds' fault" topic.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:05 PM ^
The Lions have made the playoffs three out of the last six years.
Then they fired that coach because "it wasn't good enough" to be relevant but not elite, and their team immediately cratered.
I'm not pointing this out as a proxy to any other conversations that are happening on the board, or anything.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:28 PM ^
Lions are also playing with like their 5th string QB. Of course they are going to suck even more than they normally suck.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
You are not alone MGrow. Any M alum who also is a Lions follower knows your pain.
Matt Patricia. Freddie Kitchens. Where do they find these guys?
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
You are not alone MGrow. Any M alum who also is a Lions follower knows your pain.
Matt Patricia. Freddie Kitchens. Where do they find these guys?
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:23 PM ^
Your owner is a douche. You cannot overcome it. I know as a former Washington and Chargers fan.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:05 AM ^
Ok Rich Rod. Thanks for all the insight. Oh and welcome to MGoBlog. I take it you have some free time and decided to join last month.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:06 AM ^
Yost stayed way too long.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:06 AM ^
pretty sure the guy making $8 million a year isn't sitting back at night saying "that fucking Lloyd Carr.....he's why I can't beat Ohio State"
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:09 AM ^
I dunno man, kinda feel like we're past the statute of limitations on that at this point. While what you said isn't totally wrong, I think a decade is enough for the program to recover.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:36 AM ^
There is a necessary addition to his observations. RR was in the process of rebuilding (3-9, 5-7, 7-6) when Dave Brandon interfered and brought in Hoke to dismantle things (11-2, 8-5, 7-6, 5-7). Carr couldn't do it all on his own.
December 2nd, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
RR was in the process of plateauing at 8-5. The man's offenses were overrated and I don't think anyone ever told him what defense was. The thing that took RR's roster to 11-2 was competent defense
December 2nd, 2019 at 6:59 PM ^
We'll never know. RR was still in the process of rebuilding. It's worth noting that three freshmen were integral parts of the 2011 defense: Jake Ryan (redshirt), Blake Countess and Desmond Morgan. RR's early recruiting focused on offense out of necessity.
December 2nd, 2019 at 8:35 PM ^
RR had no clue about defense and special teams, 2/3 of the game. His record at all stops supports this.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
In Big Ten play, RR went 2-6, 1-7 and 3-5. I don't think we were headed for big things with him in charge.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
As others have pointed out, maybe it already has recovered. This is it.
M is winning at its historical norms. What has changed is the CFB landscape and fan expectations. Lloyd won about as much as Bo did, and now JH is in that realm too. What Carr did in '97 was an outlier, 8-4/9-3 really isn't unusual for M, at least historically. RR's and Hoke's crimes were failure to maintain historical norms.
OSU became a football factory and recruit similarly to many SEC schools. It wouldn't bother me if M went the same way, but it's unlikely. I'd be willing to bet M's Pres cares a whole lot less about football than OSU's pres or many other university presidents do. So status quo it is.
So... here we are. M will win most games and lose to OSU and 1 or 2 other good teams going forward. The bright spot is JH's teams usually beat the teams they're supposed to, so there's that.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:10 AM ^
No.
It all changed when the Cooper Years broke OSU and they decided to hire a notorious cheater from Youngstown State. Then another one in Meyer.
Pay the players.
The End.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:12 AM ^
I think the cheating angle is overblown. Carr was just getting outcoached in the later years.
If you want proof, go watch the Horror or the follow up Oregon game.
December 2nd, 2019 at 10:34 AM ^
...and then go watch the bowl game again.
You'll be screaming where the fuck was that play calling for the last 6 - 7 years?!
December 2nd, 2019 at 1:18 PM ^
I remember being 15 and screaming those exact words as we came out in a 5-Wide Shotgun formation to start the game.
December 2nd, 2019 at 1:56 PM ^
It was beautiful. Michigan ran the spread. Without "spread players". The game would have been more of a beatdown not for Hart fumbling in one game more than he did in his entire career. Ha!
December 2nd, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
Other than the 97 PSU game that might have been Lloyds best game ever.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:27 AM ^
I’m hopeful paying the players will help but i doubt it solves the problem.....coming to Michigan means you still have to “play school” and you don’t have to do that at OSU.
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^
I think this is a greatly underappreciated point.
I still hear stories from Michigan students about players in their classes. Joe Burrow walking over to the student section after his last game to meet students and thank them for their support because he'd never actually met any...the light finally clicked fully on for me.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
This sure makes me feel better.
/S
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
Agreed Comrade.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
Wow... In the quest to find a scapegoat, we now have to look all the way back to 2003? Fuck off...
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:14 AM ^
What does Carr have to do with any of this? It's Harbaugh's program, he has all his recruits at this point, and his teams with his own recruits have less talent and NFL draft picks than his teams with Hoke's recruits.
Does Mack Brown get blame for what Tom Herman is doing at Texas too?
Jesus Christ the guy hasn't coached in 12 years. Some of you try to find blame in absolutely anything besides the current head coach.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:46 AM ^
Harbaugh was supposed to be the savior. Poor Jimmy can do no wrong, so let’s blame everyone else.
However it does seem like the program is resistant to innovation. Harbaugh is kind of open to it kicking and screaming...
Bill Martin is the only person you can truly blame if that. He should have handled all the personalities in the AD better. If he hired Les when given the opportunity, we’d be way better off right now.
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:15 AM ^
I’ve been saying the same for years. The usual response is how could you say that, he won a NC. The worst thing that ever happened to Michigan football was Lloyd Carr!!
December 2nd, 2019 at 9:26 AM ^
The worst thing to ever happen to this program was winning a national championship. That set expectations. The end.
/s
sort of