NCAA may use "willful violators" clause for Miami - Why not OSU?
If the NCAA does indeed use this "willful violators" clause to go back further than 4 years for Miami, why not do the same for OSU? I mean, they could go all the way back to Youngstown State. Clarett took money. Troy Smith took money. Funny to see that the OSU vs Miami National Championship game was cheaters vs cheaters... much like Auburn vs Oregon.. Sad days for college football indeed.
August 19th, 2011 at 11:31 AM ^
Is anyone else worried this entire Miami situation will drown out/divert attention away from violations at other schools?
August 19th, 2011 at 11:48 AM ^
I'm concerned that Miami may become OSU's whipping boy.
Granted, the whipping boy fondled the princess and subsquently was provided a free abortion. While the Miami case is much more damning, I don't think that means that OSU should not answer for their violations. I just have a feeling they will crucify Miami and let Auburn/OSU/Oregon skate with a slap on the wrist...
August 19th, 2011 at 11:51 AM ^
August 19th, 2011 at 2:27 PM ^
This was exactly my thinking...why punish a "tragic" figure in OSU that was taken advantage of by a misguided coach when you can slap down the traditional bad guy who wears the black hat (or cammos pre-bowl game)?
I really hope the NCAA gets the ban hammer out for OSU as well as Miami (YTM), Auburn, Oregon, UNC, Alabama, etc.
August 19th, 2011 at 2:40 PM ^
I don't think the ban hammer will be used as liberally as it should be, but a world where OSU and a few top teams from the SEC can't compete for championships would be great for us.
Plus they deserve it.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:17 PM ^
Yeah, who even likes college football anyways? Let's just get rid of that shit.
August 19th, 2011 at 3:53 PM ^
In terms of bad press alone, there's no one happier about this Miami mess than Gordon Gee and his toady Gene Smith.
Well, them and the skanky hos in South Beach who hope to launch their acting careers with a tell-all book called "Getting On the Shapiro Boat." Or is that "Getting Off the Shapiro Boat?"
August 19th, 2011 at 7:17 PM ^
+1'd for your Omameh quote
August 19th, 2011 at 11:50 AM ^
August 19th, 2011 at 3:21 PM ^
I'd like to think that the NCAA, with its hundreds of rule-enforcement staff members, can conduct more than one investigation at a time.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:17 AM ^
Let the NCAA do its job.
Michigan should do its job and prepare to beat ND, MSU and OSU (and everyone else on the schedule).
Too many people too hung up on the OSU investigation. Let it go, and start concentrating on Michigan football. That's what really matters.
August 19th, 2011 at 11:33 AM ^
August 19th, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
What part of it is speculative, other than the part where I employ the word "may"?
August 19th, 2011 at 11:37 AM ^
I would think the use of "may" in the title is enough to imply speculation
August 19th, 2011 at 11:44 AM ^
entitled "Source: Willful violators clause could apply at Miami" stating that "The NCAA informed University of Miami administrators it will consider invoking its “willful violators” clause and make an exception to the traditional four-year statute of limitations in the Nevin Shapiro case, a university source told Yahoo! Sports" where Emmert said “We need to make sure that we’ve got, for the committee on infractions, all the tools they need to create those kinds of deterrents".
August 19th, 2011 at 4:52 PM ^
August 19th, 2011 at 11:44 AM ^
"Funny to see that the OSU vs Miami National Championship game was cheaters vs cheaters... much like Auburn vs Oregon.. Sad days for college football indeed. "
I know he is quite villified on here but Mike Valenti has been saying for a couple of years now that the only way to truly compete on a national level these days in college football is to break the NCAA's rules. I'm not sure I believe him but I am starting too.
August 19th, 2011 at 11:47 AM ^
Are you sure you're not starting two?
August 19th, 2011 at 11:50 AM ^
Hah, yeah. Well, it's hard to disagree with everything Valenti says, because he says quite a lot. Let's take a look at the programs in the BCS National Championship game in the past 10 years:
Miami
Nebraska
Ohio State
LSU
Oklahoma
USC
Texas
Florida
Oregon
Auburn
Alabama
Ok, out of those programs, six of eleven have been penalized (or are about to be) by the NCAA. That leaves Alabama, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska. Alabama oversigns... is there anything fishy going on with the other four remaining?
August 19th, 2011 at 12:08 PM ^
Oklahoma has had sanctions and is right behind tOSU in secondary violations.
August 19th, 2011 at 12:09 PM ^
Also, Bama lost a bunch of scholarships in the early 2000s for the Albert Means thing and was on probation from 2002-2007 as a result I believe.
August 19th, 2011 at 12:10 PM ^
Oklahoma had the Rhett Bomar (and 2? other players) getting no-show or seriously overpaid jobs in the last few years, Alabama has had tons of trouble with the NCAA in its past and seriously oversigns, and Florida had many, many players arrested for varying degrees of bad. Texas and Nebraska both weren't in the same class as the teams they lost to in their last title appearance. Texas won a title with Vince Young, which was basically unfair regardless of whether or not he was cheating and Nebraska last won a title around the time it was letting Lawrence Phillips back onto the team after being arrested for assaulting his girlfriend.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:00 PM ^
didn't have any Ncaa violations, but I'm pretty sure I heard they had the most players with criminal records.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:54 PM ^
Just proves the old proverb “cheaters usually win“. Let that be a lesson to all you kids out there.
August 19th, 2011 at 2:09 PM ^
are you predicting the fabled and anticlimactic tie for the 9/17/11 OSU@Miami game then?
I usually loathe on air commentary (much prefer radio) but this is one I'm excited to hear. Do they talk about the massive elephant in the room for the entire game? Just the first quarter? Half? I hope however they do it, they don't corn it up to remain Politically Correct. Speak your damn mind you network puppets.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:58 PM ^
The rumor about Nebraska has long been: steroids
August 19th, 2011 at 11:52 AM ^
Because the two situations are still drastically different. What's been dug up on OSU is really nothing to what was going on at Miami over the past 9 years.
Sure there may be more evidence against OSU that hasn't been turned up, and maybe the actual situation there is as bad as it is in Miami. (I doubt it). But the accusations and evidence in Miami's situation is far far greather than that against OSU. That's why you see it as a possibility for Miami, but not one for OSU.
August 19th, 2011 at 11:55 AM ^
engaged in willful violations will depend on whether the coaches and other in the athletic department actually participated in the violations themselves, I don't even think intentional blindness will land them in that category.
Miami is not going to get the death penalty, neither is OSU. From what I have ascertained, both instances arose from rogue activity within a program, not a pattern of program santioned activity. With SMU, coaches were actually receiving money from a fund set up for the very purpose of providing them and the players with money. The coaches knew and approved of cash payouts to players, and the violations occurred while SMU was on strict probation for past violations.
Shapiro has provided damning information, but the information is relative to the character of 18 and 19 year old players absorbing a culture that both they and Shapiro were a part of. Shapiro is descrining South Beach, his allegations are that the players for the U did not say no to living an extravagent, excessive life style when presented with the opportunity, not that the University itself was sanctioning the activity.
I am not absolving the University of Responsibility, but Shapiro was not let onto the field and through the tunnel for providing the players with "prostitutes" (I wonder how many of the "prostitutes" were "prostitutes" before arriving at the party in question, I think a 1.6 million dollar yaght may have a way of turning a "hot girl" into a "prostitute" the same way a VIP section can turn a good wide receiver into a "thug"), he was given that kind of access for his payments to the University, payments that could have appeared clean during the time period in question. There have been rumors that coaches were involved, but those rumors are not confirmed by Shapiro's appearance at the same table as the basketball coach during a booster fundraises. Shapiro was in fact that, a booster, but that doesn't mean he could not have been night club VIP scum also when no coaches were around.
I remember the Freep Jihad like it was yesterday, speculation turned to fact within 24 hours, most of which later was found to be complete fiction. I want to see this actually be investigated by those charged with investigating it before talking about shutting down a football program.
August 19th, 2011 at 12:31 PM ^
If Haith(sp?) was actually going to strip clubs with Nevin and players, there is your smoking gun. If basketball and football coaches were actually bringing recruits to see Nevin so he could recruit them/pay them to sign with Miami, then yeah. That isn't on the kids, that is on the coaching staffs of your two major sport cash cows. As you said, Freep Jihad and all, so if they can actually prove this stuff, it is dynamite. If this falls through, thats a different story. I'd be curious to see what Andre Debose at Florida and some of the other kids who signed elsewhere have to say about this stuff. If they can verify some of it, hoo-boy!
August 19th, 2011 at 12:36 PM ^
The former OSU AD, Geiger, was thought to have been forced out in the midst of the Clarret scandal. Now, we learn that he gave Tressel a negative review for not reporting NCAA infractions. Tressel reportedly said to him "stop pissing on my back.". Who could have forced Geiger out? Only the President and Board could do so.
An NCAA infractions committee member, Smith, then was hired as AD when OSU sought to keep out of of jail (from the Clarret accusations). He never gave Tressel a written evaluation of his performance. Who could have assessed Smith's lack of monitoring? Only the President and Board.
The head of OSU compliance, who himself accepted free cars, was contradicted regarding his communications with a Car dealer in Columbus, who was reported to have given special deals to OSU athletes.
An OSU booster (never contacted by the NCAA) reportedly gave free golf, car expenses and cash to Pryor and fellow teammates . Who was his past employer? None other than the chairman of the OSU Board of Trustees---who had been a good friend of Tressel, asked him for political favors, and suggested, in response to the scandal that OSU has nothing to be ashamed of.
So, despite the admitted differences from SMU, do we really know that the problems were all due to a renegade coach or player? Do we know how far up the problem really went?
August 19th, 2011 at 1:41 PM ^
Andy Geiger retired in 2005, not exactly "in the midst of the Clarrett scandal". He was also 65 years old at the time. If you think he was forced out because he was too watchful...you're an idiot. I am amazed at the tin foil shit you are running here, honestly a brilliant trolling campaign. Conspiracy to commit "failure to monitor". A orchestrated sequence of actions to create an atmosphere of non-compliance...really....you really think that happened? PS, coaches and staff can drive free cars, it happens all the time. I would bet UM coaches and staff have loaner cars from a local dealership, almost all schools do.
The best part is your theory about Les Wexner conspiring to give free golf at a dog track country club through some dip shit that worked at The Limited (10k+ employees). If you really believe this, which I really find hard to believe, you seriously must be a deranged person. I would feel bad for you if your post wasn't so hilarious, I think you're being humorous but I can't be positive.
August 19th, 2011 at 3:45 PM ^
Was it ever confirmed that Talbott was an SVP at Limited Brands? As far as I know, the only source for this is Talbott's linkedin profile. That profile included a fictional degree in a fictional major, not to mention a fictional athletic career...I think we're entitled to suspect that he exaggerated his work credentials a tad, too.
I'm sure Talbott would have liked to be able to claim a connection to Wexner; he's obviously capable of stretching the truth to do so.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:36 AM ^
Can anyone think of a way to verify this?
PS I was unware of the fictions you mention on his resume. Not that I doubt his capacity to lie, but how exactly do we know that he lied on his resume?
August 20th, 2011 at 8:07 PM ^
The same newspaper article described Talbott as graduating from Kent State. His profile posted on a social media site, under an "education" heading, lists Kent State University 1989-92. His major is identified as English. Kent State officials told ESPN he attended the school for two semesters -- the fall of 1989 and of 1990 -- majoring in pre-business. They have no record of his being involved in the baseball program.
A Dispatch article on him has similar disinformation, including a supposed minor league baseball career in the White Sox system (the Sox also have no record of him). According to his stepmother he never played any sports at all.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6652125
I've been thinking that SVP of Human Resources at Victoria's Secret is the kind of lie that might occur to a guy like this.
But here's a Bucknut claiming his mother-in-law knows Talbott and his wife from Limited, so maybe that part of the resume was true? (4 comments in)
http://ohiostate.247sports.com/Article/Boarding-House-Monday-Edition-28…
August 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM ^
Thanks
August 19th, 2011 at 12:00 PM ^
Maybe they will if they find more violations. Remember the NCAA isn't done in Columbus yet. Could still be more on the way.
August 19th, 2011 at 12:17 PM ^
Miami still doesn't reach the level of SMU. SMU's Board of Regents had a fund set up to keep paying players after they were caught paying those players and were sanctioned for it.
People keep talking about the check Shapiro handed to Donna Shalala (Miami's President). To reach SMU scale, Shalala would have needed to turn to Ken Dorsey and endorse the check over to him.
Nothing OSU is purported to have done reaches SMU's or Miami's scale. I personally don't buy shoving all the blame onto Tressel, but no one seems to believe he was doing anything that came close what was happening at Miami.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:04 PM ^
The SMU "payroll" was a fraction of the Money we're talking about with Miami, even adjusted for inflation.
That, and SMU didn't involve prostitution.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:20 PM ^
What's wrong with prostitution?? Your really think that's the worst I'm the Miami case? Try and unbury your head from the sand!!!
August 19th, 2011 at 2:15 PM ^
are you referring to? The $1,000 offered to players for big plays? Notice how the article does not say the money was "paid" to players. The only number that I can find with regard to amounts actually paid by Shapiro to players for attendance was the $10,000 to a basketball recruit, and that portion of the story is not even confirmed. Nothing prevents Shapiro from being a booster, the money paid by Shapiro may have been money illegally obtained, but that does not make the money paid to the university as a booster dirty money in terms of the NCAA inquiry. Shapiro ran the Ponzi scheme, that was the criminal activity, and I will give you that that was big money. But don't confuse the scheme with the university.
The connection that needs to be made is Shapiro money to player on behalf of university, The fact that the universtiy accepted money from a booster who set a player up with a prositute after already being enrolled and playing at Miami, with no affect on the player's attendance at school is not a willful violation, it may not even be a violation at all unless actual knowledge can be shown.
This is what I am saying. The Yahoo report while certainly interesting, may not be as state of the art and revealing as it attempts to make you believe. It is a well-written peice, but I am not sure how much it really says.
August 19th, 2011 at 8:01 PM ^
The Yahoo article did make a connection between Shapiro and the University. According to the article, a couple of coaches took benefits from Shapiro. In the NCAA's eyes, they are representatives of the university and thus, the university knew about the benefits.
The difference between SMU and Miami is that the payments in the SMU scandal were actually organized by the Board, which makes it much, much worse in the NCAA's eyes.
As to your assertion about the prostitutes (and I'm assuming everything else) maybe not being violations, if Denard Robinson walks into Jimmy John's and the manager (who happens to be his hypothetical best friend) gives him a free Turkey Tom, that is a violation, so yeah, buying prostitutes for players is a violation.
August 19th, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
Does that mean they can take away UM's 97 NC and Woodson's Heisman since Woodson received impermissible benefits?
August 19th, 2011 at 2:01 PM ^
What did Woodson get?
August 19th, 2011 at 12:59 PM ^
Tressel has allegations in his past but nothing meaningful is proven. There were rumors of that Phar-Mor guy back at Youngstown but aside from taking care of a speeding tickets nothing was every proven.
Whereas Miami basically had itself a shady rapper booster who not only paid players but had his tentacles the whole way down into youth football leagues. After they got slapped down for that they turned right around and got themselves a white collar criminal booster to pay the players.
Major differences in terms of what is proven. Also in terms of who is doing it. In the tOSU case I think you'd hit Tressel with a show cause and a ban from contact as he did at multiple schools. As far as tOSU knew Tressel was fairly clean when he came to them, so they did not willfully hire a corrupt coach to the best of their knowledge. At Miami it was the school turning a blind eye to multiple people doing it. It sounds like willfully ignoring booster activities (at least until the Shannon era).
August 19th, 2011 at 3:03 PM ^
Would this be a good time to point out that he was chairman of the YSU search committee that hired Tressel in the first place? Or that he was chairman of the YSU board of trustees?
"That Phar-Mor guy" sounds like he was some rogue booster type and diverts attention from the importance of the man in launching Tressel's career.
August 19th, 2011 at 5:57 PM ^
Irony is Uncle Luke WAS NEVER A BOOSTER!! Miami wouldn't allow him to be! He went to school with many of the players at that time...and nothing was ever proven by NCAA or Miami that he was giving money. It was the Pell grant scandal that got the U in trouble...
August 19th, 2011 at 7:29 PM ^
with tressell BUT one of Gieger's last written evaluations of Tressell said something to the effect that he wasn't very good with compliance.
August 19th, 2011 at 1:15 PM ^
Intentional blindness is a willful act known to be the most common modern means used to violate the rules - like a dirty policeman who acted as a lookout for a murderer - the policeman used intentional blindness to assist the murder, and his is a willful action, as willful as the murder; and appropriate to justice is an action subject to the same punishment due the murderer. Willful blindness cannot be taken too seriously; but everywhere it seems not taken nearly as seriously as it ought to be. This encourages Racketeering, or put another way, it encourages the hiring of criminals of the worst sort to take over the police departments, as in the Mexican drug cartels where roadside bombs are now becoming a problem.
SMU was flaunting rules (old-school) by using SMU stationary for passing along bribes, etc. The stationary did not violate the rules, the bribe money stuffed in an SMU envelope did. Similarly, the intentional blindness does not violate the rules; however, the lies, denials, and conspiratorial fabrications encouraged by and used to support permissiveness in order to profit from wins and bowl-games did violate rules at OSU. Their blindness was willful; and it cannot be overemphasized, blindness in their case was (and is) not literal in any sense of the word "blindness"; it is a figure of speech.
Once again, Emmert and the NCAA are incredibly disappointing and derelict; only this time they are telling us ahead of time they have no regard for ethical standards, signaling their ability to make up categories they do not need to invent to make efforts to cover up the fact they have inadequately applied, rather, they have abused the existing rules with all contempt. By example, not counting Sarniak as a booster begins to show how they minimize one violation, but it encourages additional violations. Then the NCAA adds onto this folly when they say what was done at OSU is not willful, which in my estimation they want us to allow, when they are partly responsible for the worsening of a situation due to their own obvious disregard of the rules.
The NCAA negligence in the case of Sarniak, is in a way apt by comparison unto giving a gun to a known murderer, only to act surprised said gun was used for an additional murder. Then the NCAA realizes all this involves their complicity, and therefore leads them to declare the work of the lookout in the additional murder was not a willful act implicating the dirty policeman who acted as the lookout for the murderer. This perversion of the accessibility to administrative justice tends to undermine what little is left of the fabric of our society. The NCAA is full of BAGEL-MATTER! The answer is, a resounding "Yes" to willful violation of rules involving an entire administration in both cases - Miami and Ohio. I fully expect the death penalty for Miami. I am being patient with the NCAA as far as concerns Ohio, though; and I think Miami will have no ethical impact on the proceedings or resolution of the matters in Ohio.
August 19th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
the CliffsNotes for that ^ ?
August 19th, 2011 at 3:52 PM ^
Speaking of willful violations, has anybody heard anything about Mr. Ellis and his meeting with the NCAA? That was supposed to happen today but I haven't heard or seen anything.