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EVEN MORE EXPANSIONZZZ

By Brian — December 17th, 2009 at 12:57 PM — 83 comments
Filed under:
  • big ten expansion
  • lloyd carr
  • lolblogs
  • sec

I give up. All anyone wants to talk about is potential expansion, so more potential expansion bits.

Inside info! Someone close to the Rutgers athletic department says that RU will push hard for Big Ten entrance. Not like that is surprising, but there you go.

No, just no. Sorry, Teddy Greenstein, but…

Don't discount this: the Big 14.
Seriously.

I am discounting it. It is now 100% off for a limited time only, and by "limited time only" I mean "forever." Just because some guy in the Big Ten office says "anything is possible" does not mean that we shouldn't be shocked if a conference that's attempted to expand three times in the last fifteen years only to come up empty all of a sudden adds three teams to become an unwieldy beast of a conference in which you only play about half the teams every year.

Fourteen is ridiculous. The WAC was sixteen for a while until it exploded because at that point you're not a conference but a Thomas Jefferson-style loose confederation. Where is the common sense? Where is it? Is it in Russia? No.

Lloyd != Bo. This is not exactly "to hell with Notre Dame":

"I'd love to see Notre Dame join the Big Ten," Carr said. "I think certainly it would be a great thing for the Big Ten, and I think it would be great for Notre Dame.

"But, of course, they're fighting a lot of tradition there (at Notre Dame)," which has resisted overtures from the Big Ten previously, Carr added.

This, of course, is not happening. Notre Dame people believe that the Big Ten's only desire when it comes to engulfing Notre Dame is to destroy the university and therefore the very soul of America itself, and in this they are correct.

Also no just no. Sporting News colleague Dan Shanoff is a nice man who has a bad habit of coming up with an off-the-wall idea and posting it without running it through even the most cursory sanity check. Witness his suggestion that Navy should be the 12th Big Ten team:

*Academic credentials are impeccable.
*Football program is solid.
*Triple-option is "3 Yards/Cloud" 2.0
*Can keep trad'l games w/ Army, AFA, ND.
*Better than Notre Dame.
*Nearly beat Ohio State this season.
*Non-competitive recruiting strategy.
*But expands B10 footprint in the East.
*Feds could use the BCS bowl revenue.
*It is entirely uncontroversial.

Wrong, debatable, irrelevant, irrelevant, wrong, tiny sample size, irrelevant, wrong, irrelevant, irrelevant. The Big Ten is not a charity. Navy is not an AAU member, does not have any national TV cachet, would not be a compelling reason for local cable operators to carry the Big Ten Network because no one in DC is going to have a riot as long as the Army game is on CBS.

Simply comparing Navy to Pitt and finding that Pitt was better in literally every way other than supporting the troops—why does the Big Ten hate America?—would have shot this down before it worked its way onto the internet and sat there being embarrassing, like if the GEICO money was made out of shots of you picking your nose when you were six.

Yes, yes, Terrance Cody's gravitational pull makes everything revolve around the SEC. Braves & Birds tends to see things through two lenses: World War II and SEC superiority. So in retrospect this was obvious:

I have no doubt that this move is motivated by a major case of SEC envy. Barry Alvarez was probably sitting on his couch for the first weekends of the past two Decembers, watching the #1 and #2 teams in the country play each other in the Georgia Dome and thinking to himself "man, we need something like that." However, what the Big Ten needs is not the game in early December; what it needs is teams of the quality of Florida and Alabama. …

And so, to come full circle, the Big Ten right now reminds me of the Third Reich in the summer of 1944. Germany was about to get hammered in the East by Operation Bagration and in the West by Operation Cobra. Faced with major issue, Hitler decided that the way to win the war was by firing a bevy of V-2 rockets at London. His decision was a classic case of praying for some sort of saving throw the the dice when faced with basic shortcomings.

Did Clay Travis steal B&B's login information? The Big Ten has looked at expansion every five years since Penn State joined; were those all motivated by jealousy of the SEC, too? Did the Big Ten come off championships in 1997 and 2002 only to think to itself "that god damned SEC" and look at expanding the following year? How many rhetorical questions can I stick in one paragraph? Five?

I blame Joe Paterno for this annoying meme floating around. Here's his quote from March:

We go into hiding for six weeks," Paterno said, referring to the hiatus between the end of the Big Ten regular season and the BCS bowls. The other major FBS conferences play into the first weekend of December.

"Everybody else is playing playoffs on television," Paterno said. "You never see a Big Ten team mentioned. So I think that's a handicap."

People forget that Paterno is an 81-year old man who has little say over his own football team, let alone the conference it is in. The Big Ten is pushing its schedule later in 2010. Which is next year. To get increased exposure late in the season, all the Big Ten has to do is play.

This has nothing to do with the SEC except insofar as everything designed to get money is part of the arms race and the only conference that even competes with Big Ten is the SEC. They'll do it if they think it's a good idea; they won't if they don't. The big difference this time around is that Notre Dame seems permanently off the table and Pitt has built itself into an attractive basketball power with accompanying decent football program. B&B then goes off on the league's mediocre coaching as if expansion and hiring Danny Hope are in any way dependent. They are not linked.

morgan-freeman-argument is invalid

Yes, expansion is an attempt to make the league better on and off the field. I can't fathom why this has anything to do with the SEC except insofar as everyone who lives in the South is legally obligated to assume everything is because of the SEC. Clay Travis is writing up a column right now about how the New York Times is holding up health care reform by wasting their time on recruiting hostesses.

Hey, at least it's not just us. This post at Pitt Blather starts off with this sentence…

I really, really, really don’t look forward to 18+ months of mindless speculation over Big 11 expansion.

…which I think we can all agree with. But then it appears that what Pitt Blather wants is speculation about Big East expansion that includes adding Villanova, a I-AA team, and Charlotte, a nonexistent team, instead of Memphis, a team with a billion dollars from FedEx guy.

Welcome. Now give us money. I don't actually know about this but I thought it was interesting. Smart Football's Chris Brown asks about a potential holdup with Team 12 (and team 13, and 14, and 52):

Someone sent me a question regarding whether a new Big 10 member could afford to join, and you seemed like the guy to mention it to.

The concern was whether any potential new Big 10 school could afford to "buy-in" to the BTN. Specifically, he said: "News Corp paid $66M to Big Ten for BTN in '07. Rough numbers put the value today at ~$400M. What school has ~$40M for buy-in?"

According to wikipedia, the member schools own 51% and Fox/News Corp owns 49%. The buy-in would not necessarily be 1/10 the value of the overall entity; it just needs to buy enough shares or units to have 1/12 of the 51%. I don't know how it is structured, but I bet the member schools jointly own an entity which itself owns 51% of the joint BTN venture with News Corp. That way a new school could just buy the units from the other schools, or they could issue new units, such that each school would then own 1/12 of the member schools' portion of the entity. Make sense? If you assume BTN really is worth $400m, that means that a new school would just have to buy 1/12 of the 51%, which comes out to around $17m.

But again, how do we know what the BTN is worth? Mandel threw some revenue figures together but those seem pretty darn loose. And in any event the biggest factor would be what kind of growth rate do you see from the Big 10 Network. I think we both agree the business model is fluctuating.

Finally, my friend made the point that he didn't think a school had that much money. I don't see why an athletic department couldn't borrow that money and then pay it down with future revenues; any school but Notre Dame would undoubtedly have their overall sports revenues increase.

Any thoughts on this? Specifically, whether buying into the BTN would be any kind of hurdle for a new member school? Also let me know if I'm looking at the structure wrong. I don't have any firm info and am just going off some stuff I saw online.

Chris

That would depend on how much the school in question brings to the table. If Notre Dame got really drunk and decided to sign up I doubt the Big Ten would push the issue much since adding them to the network would be a big win. Pitt or Rutgers or whoever might be asked to pay for their slice of the pie.

I don't think that would be a major hurdle since you're really cutting the school in on something with excellent growth potential; the school in question could justify buying in with a section of their general fund since it's an investment that should grow in value.

For the record. One man's list of the five most insane schools proposed for Big Ten expansion:

5. Iowa State. Yes, their athletic programs are that historically bad that a land-grant university in the geographic footprint makes this list.

LOOK AT THIS

beat-iowaEND OF STORY

At this rate by the end of these 18 months I'm going to be guest-posting trash talk about Iowa State on BHGP.

4. Toronto. Only mentioned because it's in the AAU and Toronto is so starved for entertainment that they'll sell out MLS games. Problems: the pilot program for NCAA induction of a few Universities only applies to D-II and will get a few schools out West in within ten years, Toronto doesn't play American football, and Michigan State would have to forfeit all its games there because Canada wouldn't let them into the country.

3. Navy. Previously discussed.

2. Cornell. Cornell is an Ivy-league school without a I-A football program. And yet…

1. Rice. It's got all the downsides of Texas combined with all the downsides of Iowa State. Its only asset is that its band integrated e^x during the Rice-Michigan game a while back just so they could spell "sex" in front of 110,000 people.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 8:09 PM #1
psychomatt
Joined: 2009-08-25
Points: 1366
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ND Far from "Permanently Off the Table"

I don't know about the 14 (or 16) team ideas, but anyone who thinks that ND is not the primary target of this entire exercise does not understand how the economics of college sports has changed over the past 10-15 years. And this trend will continue, with it being harder and harder each decade for ND to remain independent. The following article does a good job of explaining NDs situation:

http://www.slate.com/id/2203927/

Moreover, everyone likes to throw around NDs contract with NBC as the main problem. As indicated in the above article, the average team in the B10 makes about $15 million per year from TV revenues v. the $9 million per year ND makes from NBC. Moreover, the B10s TV revenues would increase if ND joined because their existing contracts would be renegotiated upward and the conference would add a championship game. ND easily would make much more in TV revenues as part of the B10 than it has ever made from its contract with NBC.

Another way to look at this is to compare ND's financial situation with other elite programs. Here is a list of the athletic department budgets of the major D-1 schools:

http://newsburglar.com/2009/08/18/college-athletic-department-budget/

Notice that virtually all of elite teams are now ahead of ND. ND is, in fact, dwarfed by Texas, OSU, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin and PSU. And when Michigan is done with its luxury boxes and club level, its numbers will jump significantly to rival the two names at the top of the list -- Texas and OSU. Like it or not, ND has to live within the realities of the financial world. ND has to pay head coaches and assistant coaches, the salaries of both of which are on the rise. ND has to pay for facilities upgrades to woo recruits, again which get crazier every year (have you seen Texas' Godzillatron?). ND has to pay for everything that every one of these other schools has to pay for, and as those costs continue to rise, ND will either need to find a way to increase revenues to keep up with the elite teams or continue to fall behind.

ND absolutely will fight this as long as they can. ND wants to remain independent, but not for financial reasons. Nonetheless, the writing is on the wall. PSU wanted to remain independent too, but the best financial decision they every made was to join the B10. This example will not be lost on ND. Similarly, there was a ton of hand-wringing when ND was considering whether to expand ND Stadium. Despite the traditionalists, the stadium was expanded. Why? Money. The only things that will prevent ND from joining the B10 (eventually) is if either (1) ND comes up with a better idea or (2) the B10 gets impatient and adds another team before ND cries uncle. If ND simply continues to sit still in an attempt to maintain the status quo, it will continue to decline in relevance as more teams catch up to them and pass them in financial resources. And if there is one thing that ND loathes more than the idea of joining a conference, it is becoming permanently middle-of-the-pack in football. I only hope the B10 does not get impatient and add Cincinnati or Louisville or Pitt (or some other forgettable team) in the interim. Nothing would suck more than to see the B10 end up with Cincinnati and then have ND join the Big East in response under a sweetheart deal because the Big East needs ND so badly just to survive.

"Screw you guys. I'm going home." E.C.

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 8:27 AM #2
Simi Maquoketa
Joined: 2009-12-03
Points: 398
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WOW!

Great post!

I rant about Nebraska--but that's because I'm in the group that believes ND will never join.

Your analysis is dead on, though, and ND's stubbornness and belief the college football sun rises and sets in South Bend looks pretty weak when you go through what you have to say. I never imagined the Big Ten TV revenues dwarf their TV deal. And I do agree that with them in the fold, TV revenue would increase for everybody well beyond what they get from NBC. In the end, they look pretty shortsighted and just might find themselves more marginalized as time goes on. Too bad.

I think you're right about patience for the Big Ten being key here. That's also why I do not like the idea of Pitt or any other team (besides Nebraska)--once the Big Ten makes this decision, it actually might push ND to another conference and the Big Ten will be left with Cincinnati of someone like that while the ACC nabs Notre Dame.

I think that's why we see the timetable of 12-18 months to explore the idea. It gives the Big Ten and ND time to go on a few dates, have some drinks (thanks Brian), maybe even spend a romantic weekend together somehwere and hell, who knows? Possibly run off to Vegas and elope!

I do not like math

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 11:24 PM #3
psychomatt
Joined: 2009-08-25
Points: 1366
Offline
Agree on the 12-18 Months

The B10 knows ND is a home run for both of them. ND has to know it too, though they are having trouble admitting it. This is going to be a long courtship.

"Screw you guys. I'm going home." E.C.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 6:27 PM #4
HHW
HHW's picture
Joined: 2008-10-25
Points: 651
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Am I way off base?

I have zero interest in who they add, is that wrong? I assume that they will select a team that will fit in with our league. Because of that I could care less until they make the announcement.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 7:48 PM #5
los barcos
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Joined: 2009-03-27
Points: 1486
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no you're not wrong

your attitude is much better than mindless speculation for the course of over a year. this story will be beaten to death over and over again and it makes me pine for the ubiquitious "i love rr" threads.

lloyd was better.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 5:55 PM #6
brianshall
Joined: 2009-11-08
Points: -1196
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Is adding Navy a way to force

Notre Dame? (I mean, then it's Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Navy as Big 10 team they play regularly)

Big 14 = current + Navy + Rutgers + Notre Dame

Could happen

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 10:04 PM #7
KSmooth
Joined: 2009-11-14
Points: 12
Offline
No

Navy won't happen. Academically they stack up well enough, and there are weaker football teams being tossed around (Syracuse for example) but as a service academy they just don't fit culturally, plus they are pretty close to irrelevant in basketball and that's something that can't be ignored.

So who does get in? I wouldn't rule Notre Dame out completely. The economics for ND's independent status just don't hold up well over time. Their football program has been wallowing in mediocrity for better than a decade. Most of the scheduling issues should be fixable. I mean, it can't be that hard to arrange an off week for UND to play USC. Not making a prediction that this is going to happen, but I smell conventional wisdom here and that doesn't always pan out.

I have nothing to say at this point.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 5:36 PM #8
Bronco648
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Joined: 2008-08-20
Points: 641
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Pure Comedy Gold

"like if the GEICO money was made out of shots of you picking your nose when you were six."

Hahahahahahahahaha

Nobody home...

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 5:07 PM #9
modaddy21
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Points: 52
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sick of it

already...to much talk..lets wait and see what happens

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 2:48 AM #10
Gene
Joined: 2008-07-01
Points: 97
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Then ignore the thread. Let

Then ignore the thread. Let the people who are interested in it talk.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:30 PM #11
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 2009-10-04
Points: 5742
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Where is Pitt Basketball ranked right now?

Let's be honest...we'd be bringing in an above average basketball team that lost their really good coach to UCLA, and if they have any success, will lose their coach to whatever power is looking for it now. They've been a pretty bad football team having an ok season losing to everyone that matters with a laughingstock coach. By those standards, we should be inviting West Virginia, which handled Pitt and has a top ten basketball team right now.

Frankly, not getting an ND or Nebraska, I don't see the value of adding a team just for a $5 million dollar game that will make EVERYTHING split with an extra share to another institution. A team like Pitt adds NOTHING to the Conference. Certainly not enough to upheave how the whole thing is arranged, messing around with traditions and rivalries and all. If you can get a value added team, fine. To just pick somebody to go to 12 to follow everybody else? A waste.

The Big Ten is supposed to be the leaders and innovators, not the followers. Whether it be expansion, replay, their own network, they set the standards, not follow them late. If we're headed towards mega conferences, as the Big 12 and Pac 10 absorb the top of the MWC and WAC, and the Big East scoops up the Conference USA, and so forth, we should be the one making the seismic changes, and that involves adding three teams, getting who we want now out of the other conferences, and become the power conference in an indisputable financial way, if we can't get someone who can do that on their own.

Otherwise, it's a waste of time. Just leave things as they are, till you're really ready to do something important. Because that sound you hear around the country is crickets chirping over the idea of Pitt moving to the Big Ten. Over the yawns.

...I have shown him...a man without hope...is a man without fear...

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 12:41 AM #12
psychomatt
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Ditto

1st Choice = Texas
2nd Choice = ND
3rd Choice = Wait until one of above choices are available.

"Screw you guys. I'm going home." E.C.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 11:31 PM #13
M-Wolverine
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If the big Pitt fans wants to

If the big Pitt fans want to post a rebuttal, I'd love to hear it...

...I have shown him...a man without hope...is a man without fear...

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:20 PM #14
Frank From FVSp...
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only way

i see the B10 going to 14 teams is if the commish and Co. want to become the largest conference just to snub the others. something i could see happening.

saying that.... no way it happens.

Check FV's Sports Message Boards
http://www.fvsports.com/forum/index.php

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:05 PM #15
footbox
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navy

I would have to disagree with you assesment of of Navy as a whole. First of all they have been toa bowl game 7 out of the last 8 years and have beat ND two out of the last three, so its not liek they have a bad football team. I would be more worried about that rest of their teams playing in the big ten, thats where it would be ugly for Navy in almost every sport other than their lacrosse team is awesome. And for the academics portion, i understand they may not do the reasearch that Pitt does but that is only because they have no graduate programs. But you in terms of undergraduate studies you cannot compare it to Pitt, NAVY blows a pitt undergrad degree away, not even close.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 11:00 PM #16
Needs
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The CIC could care less about

The CIC could care less about undergrad education. It's a research and doctoral education oriented consortium.

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 12:34 PM #17
footbox
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I understand

that but I was just stating that in terms of undergrad, which is all Navy has to offer, they are far superior to Pitt.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:17 PM #18
dahblue
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big ten conference; not service academy conference

There is no way Navy should be in the conversation. It's a service academy! Navy would be a giant turd in the Big Ten punch bowl. Nothing against Navy as an institution (or service academies in general), but they don't have any fit in the Big Ten.

For me, the standard (all deep thinking and statistical analysis aside) is...who feels like a Big Ten team. I'd say that PSU has a natural Big Ten feel. Who else? Colorado, Nebraska, and worst case...PITT. Maybe there are logical reasons why some or all of those fail, but if we're looking at Navy...why not TCU...they also have nothing in common with the Big Ten.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:35 PM #19
footbox
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my bad

i should have mentioned that im not for Navy going into the Big Ten, just thought some of the arguements in the post were not quite correct. I think overall Pitt is the best option the Big Ten has at this time.

But how does Colorado feel like a Big Ten team, they are terrible at almost every sport right now and have been for some time and most of the time thier stadium is not anywhere near full and its not a big place. They even have been getting beat by Colorado State in football and basketball which is a bottom feader in the mountain west. Besides all the boulder/denver area cares about are the Broncos, CU is an after thought.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 5:05 PM #20
dahblue
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CU feels right

CU feels right to me for a number of reasons:
1. The Mork & Mindy intro was filmed on their football field.
2. Boulder is a much-loved college town like Madison or A2.
3. They have been down, but I'd put them on the historic level of Iowa for somewhat modern-era athletic success.
4. Very cool helmets.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:01 PM #21
m83econ
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I'm with Oldblue

Expansion is a bad idea for Michigan. It further dilutes the revenue stream, will result in a divisional structure that causes unbalanced schedules and throws another obstacle in the path to conference champion, BCS championship berth, etc. Just extend the schedule to 1st weekend in December and add another bye week (beyond the 2010 plan). Cold weather? Don't worry - Algore has promised global warming!

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 8:12 PM #22
psychomatt
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2nd Bye Week

Definitely a great idea. They should at least do this while they "search" for a 12th member.

"Screw you guys. I'm going home." E.C.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:29 PM #23
jmblue
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Great line

"The WAC was sixteen for a while until it exploded because at that point you're not a conference but a Thomas Jefferson-style loose confederation."

And the Rice performance - wow, how did I never hear of that?

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:28 PM #24
mgovictors23
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Pitt

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again today, Pitt is the best option.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 9:58 PM #25
Engin77
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Not from a BTN revenue perspective.

This isn't about saving travel dollars, it's about increasing revenue.

One of these clouds must have a Maize and Blue lining ...

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:24 PM #26
Number 7
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more absurd choices, but with reasons

Colorado (like Missouri or IA State, but a better university, and less integrated into the Big 8 -- yes it's far, but it's not like anybody would by hopping a greyhound to Springfield, anyway).

Marshall (like Pitt or West Virgina, but more willing to switch conferences -- they do it as a matter of school policy twice every decade as it is.)

Memphis (Fed Ex Billions? hmmm.)

Tulsa (GLUEBLUE4EVR jestingly says we'd get to see McGuffie if Rice got in -- But only Tulsa offers Shavodrick Beaver on a platter (or a bench, as the case may be).

U. of Chicago (an orginal member, I believe, so history is on the side here. Not sure if they have a football team -- or even an athletic department -- but it wouldn't hurt to have an in-conference Baby Seal against which to play most years. Natural rival for Northwestern.)

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:18 PM #27
MayzNBlu
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History

U Chicago was historically in the Big Ten, but I actually think this goes against them. Their administration decided to pull out because of the undue focus on athletics over academics. I don't think that's changed, so I doubt their administration would change their mind about being in the Big Ten.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 6:16 PM #28
Newk
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Chicago to B10 would be the

Chicago to B10 would be the most absurd suggestion yet. They're D III. They have no stadium. They don't give athletic scholarships. No one here cares about college sports. If talking about Kant or Thucydides and wearing turtlenecks were a B10 sport, U of C would dominate.

c/o '02

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Posted on: December 18th, 2009 at 8:57 AM #29
Simi Maquoketa
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Don't Mock The Turtleneck

Tommy Amaker apparently has a job in waiting!

I do not like math

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 9:56 PM #30
Engin77
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Thucydides would kick ass in any era.

The guy basically invented history as we know it. It was happening, but no one thought to write it down or analyse it.

One of these clouds must have a Maize and Blue lining ...

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:19 PM #31
FrankMurphy
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I would actually put Toronto

I would actually put Toronto at the top of the list of insane schools. You might as well suggest the Indian Institute of Technology ("They've got a great cricket program, and cricket is on the verge of taking off in the US! The Big Ten should get in on the ground floor!").

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:17 PM #32
DoubleB
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A couple of comments

The Rice band is like Stanford's in that they traditionally do a lot of off-beat stuff like this.

While I'd argue Cornell is more ludicrous than Rice as a Big Ten member (I don't think Cornell would ever leave the Ivy League as I think Rice would leave the disparate mess that is C-USA), there is absolutely nothing Rice brings to the table other than a top 3 baseball program. It's half the size of Northwestern. 2008 notwithstanding they are poor in football. They are probably worse in basketball. They draw d!ck in both sports and don't bring any television market. As a contrast, more people ATTEND the University of Texas than have EVER GRADUATED from Rice. It's the rough equivalent of taking Northwestern's hoops program, Indiana's football program and the support of a I-AA athletic program.

Navy is definitely neither an athletic or cultural fit in the Big Ten, but its a good school that fits in academically.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:43 PM #33
matty blue
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rice baseball...

...is why they would never join the big ten.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 7:26 PM #34
DoubleB
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Rice baseball

has managed to thrive over the last 15 years despite the dissolution of the SWC, playing in a watered down WAC that included conference games against Hawaii-Hilo (yes, that's Hawaii-Hilo, not Hawaii), and now C-USA. They could probably survive as an independent in baseball if they had to.

I'm not convinced they would join the Big Ten if offered, but the baseball team wouldn't be a reason at the top of the list--they will be fine regardless as long as Graham is still there.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 6:05 PM #35
Yinka Double Dare
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If we wanted to be like Rice

If we wanted to be like Rice baseball, we'd need to surgically implant devices into our pitchers' elbows and shoulders that cause them to self-destruct within a year after leaving Michigan baseball.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:11 PM #36
FrankMurphy
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I would actually put Toronto

I would actually put Toronto at the top of the list of insane schools. You might as well suggest the Indian Institute of Technology ("They've got a great cricket program, and cricket is on the verge of taking off in the US! The Big Ten should get in on the ground floor!").

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:20 PM #37
Mat
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yeah but

think of the IIT's impact on academics! and talk about exploring new markets! I like where you're going with this.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:56 PM #38
stmccoy
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I live in Iowa

I live in Iowa and no place in the country is laughing harder about Iowa State joining the Big Ten. They lose to nearly every BCS conference school they play every year and the fans treat the Iowa game as a bowl game. They have a hard time selling their games out for conference matchups and half the people actually in the stadium are in the parking lot tailgating by halftime. They bring nothing to the table whatsoever.

HELLO HEISMAN!

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:36 PM #39
brianshall
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this post is the sports blog post equivalent of

Howl

And it should be studied in universities across the country -- and read out loud.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:27 PM #40
bluebyyou
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Per ESPN, ND isn't interested

Per ESPN, ND isn't interested in coming on board.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4750901

Note this comment:

"Our independence is tied up in a lot of the rivalries we have. We play Navy every year and have the tradition of USC weekends. Frankly, it works pretty well to play USC in October at home and in November at their place."

What an asinine comment. They do realize that a quarter of their schedule is already against Big Ten teams. Playing Michigan in front of the largest crowd in the country should mean something to these guys but I guess they assume that is a given. Add OSU to the list instead of poor whipping boy Navy (in most years). Tradition...what a bunch of pussies.

It is really an enigma to me that I despise ND so deeply yet want them to join my conference.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 3:01 PM #41
stmccoy
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If Notre Dame is intent

If Notre Dame is intent on remaining an independent, perhaps the Big Ten should think about refusing to play them out of conference. This is undesirable from a rivalry standpoint but Notre Dame earns revenues and is given attention for playing Big Ten teams. Maybe it is time that they no longer have access to Big Ten resources and fans.

HELLO HEISMAN!

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 6:32 PM #42
The FannMan
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To hell with Notre Dame

Bo made this same point mutiple times in different interviews following the various times ND refused to join. He basically took the attitude if they didn't want to play Big 10 schools, then the Big Ten should oblige them. This would probably have more of an impact now than ever. Top tier teams are not going to add home and home series with ND and give up big paydays every other year. (Like we do.)

With that said, the Big Ten ADs have not taken Bo's advice.

Am I the only one with a suspicion that if we get anyone to say they'll join, the next call will be to Notre Dame to give them one final, last change to join while Delany prays that they'll say yes like a nerd asking a cheerleader to prom?

"Integrity can only get you so far." - My little brother, the State grad.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 6:10 PM #43
thethirdcoast
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Agree...

...a Big Ten scheduling boycott would force ND to travel longer distances to play big conference opponents or beat up tomato cans in their own backyard.

Either situation would be a net benefit for the Big Ten in the long run.

The former bluewolverine

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 5:04 PM #44
jsimms
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answer to stmccoy

I agree with your post 100%. If ND gets all the B10 opponents it needs without joining the B10, then this is another reason not to join. So, let's find out...let's not play ND. Either ND will capitulate, because it needs B10 opponents----or the B10 will give in, because it needs to play even a non-conference ND.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 4:09 PM #45
Engin77
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A Golden Domer

would tell you that strategy has already been tried; the result was Notre Dame scheduling outside the region and becoming a "national power".

One of these clouds must have a Maize and Blue lining ...

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:34 PM #46
CRex
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Let me translate that Notre

Let me translate that Notre Dame speak:

Iowa, Wisconsin, Penn State and tOSU as our October schedule and promptly go 0-4? No thanks, our traditional body bag games, errr rivals, are very important to us.

/Michigan of course is played in Sept

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:11 PM #47
Mat
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Brian

That was an awesome post. I love it when you're not moping and drunk...or drunk and not moping, whatever.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:09 PM #48
jamiemac
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Navy

While I agree the idea of Navy joining the Big 10 to be insane and something that would be beyond counter productive, I dont think you can say its debatable they are not solid football program. If 7-8 bowl years in a row isnt solid, then I dont know what is.

Otherwise, I'm not buying this expansion talk. It seems like we've been debating the 12th team for almost 20 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

The Winter Olympics at www.justcoverblog.com

God Bless Your Cotton Pickin' Maize & Blue Hearts

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:04 PM #49
CRex
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Why Does The New School Need To Pay Up Front?

In terms of buying in to the Big 10, can't the conference just "loan" them the money. As in give the new school the stock and then say over a period of 5-10 years, a portion of the BTN revenue that the new school would get is instead paid back to the conference. If the new school leaves or gets kicked out of course they'd have to return the stock, but it doesn't seem like we're so starved for money we'd need a check for 17 million (or about 1.5 million per school) right off the bat.

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Posted on: December 17th, 2009 at 2:00 PM #50
el segundo
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BTN Buy-in

I'm not sure that any new member of the Big Ten would necessarily have to come up with a lump sum cash payment to the BTN. This could be true for a couple of reasons.

First, assuming the entering school was a full-fledged member of the conference from day one, there is no reason why tne new school has to get BTN revenues from day one. The BTN could --on paper -- start splitting up its profits 12 ways on day one but withhold the new school's share and distribute it to the existing schools. The amount of withholding could reduce over time until the existing schools had received a total amount from the new school's shares which would equal the buy in cost. For example, in the first year of membership, the new school gives up 100% of its share; in the second year, 80%, and so forth, until the total of amounts withheld equals a 1/12th share of the network's value. This would be like having the BTN finance the new school's buy-in.

Second, why assume that the member is going to be a full-fledged member right away? There might have to be a transition period while schedules are adjusted, particularly in football. During the transition, the new school might have to make its games available to the BTN to the fullest extent possible but not take any revenue from the BTN. This would be like an in-kind buy-in: the new school gives free programming to the BTN for a while and gets a share of BTN ownership at the end of that period. This might be hard to pull off because it's probably hard to value programming on a per-game basis.

There are probably other options. The point is that there are a wide variety of ways to finance a new school's buy-in to the BTN. This should not be an obstacle for any school that joins the conference.

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