Lehman Brothers Comment Count

Brian

10/30/2010 – Michigan 31, Penn State 41 – 5-3, 1-3 Big Ten

greg-robinson-fail greg-robinson-fail2 greg-robinson-fail3
these were the same pictures used in the very first Greg Robinson post and were named –fail1, –fail2, –fail3.

A few years back my fiancée (then girlfriend) and I had one of those conversations that draw out over two weeks. You have them when the other person's position is so bizarre and unbelievable that unlocking the reasoning behind it is important if you're going to hang around this person for a long time—because it's possible the reasoning goes something like "I'm a stabby person who stabs you in the stab places."

The argument was about the narrative of overarching, capital-P Progress that the world is or is not making. I, the engineer, pointed to various statistics that all point in the right direction. She regarded all of it as different paths to the same thing: misery for all but a few. A Foxconn factory is just a handy place to jump off, and they take even that away from you.

I don't think we ever came to a satisfactory conclusion despite the lingering threat of stabbing, but I don't think we have to anymore. Since that conversation the world's financial system exploded, the economy fell into a deep and lingering malaise that figures to last most of a decade, and Greg Robinson was hired to coordinate Michigan's defense.

-------------------------------------

The worst part has been the illusion. Actually, the worst part has been the actual progress. The worst part has been a combination of the illusion and the progress. The worst part has been a combination of the illusion and the progress and the relentless losing.

The illusion: two straight years Michigan has leapt out to a hot start only to see all the supposedly quality wins evaporate. A thrilling win over Notre Dame devalued as the Irish collapse into a heap of laughable crap. UConn goes from team on the verge of a Big East championship to a team that can't even keep its head above water in a horrible conference. Indiana is still not a surprisingly good, competitive version of Indiana. It's just Indiana. Then there is losing, and not competitively.

The actual progress: Michigan has the #1 yardage offense in the Big Ten by a huge margin. The gap between Michigan and #2 Ohio State is considerably bigger than the gap between Ohio State and #7 Iowa. The prophesied Rodriguez Leap, which did happen last year, happened again this year. Rodriguez is what he was sold as.

That progress looked like enough to get Rodriguez through 2010 into a prove-it 2011 until some walk-on shredded Michigan for 28 first-half points. If Progress means not being Minnesota, Michigan is failing. At some point last night the extremely depressing score was 31-10 and the ticker scrolled to the OSU-Minnesota game, which was also 31-10. The Gophers managed to hold Penn State to a mere 33 points and caused them to punt an astounding six times. Michigan did it twice. A comprehensive description of the ways in which Michigan's defense failed last night is impossible, but here's an attempt: Penn State scored 24 points against Kent State, 22 against Temple, 13 against Illinois, and 44 against Youngstown State… with their starting quarterback.

Youngstown State is a 3-6 I-AA team ranked 94th in total defense. They are the closest comparison to Michigan's D amongst Penn State's opponents to date.

So.

Greg Robinson should be fired. Tomorrow, yesterday, bring in Gary Moeller, bring in anyone, don't care. He should never have been hired, just like Jay Hopson and apparently Scott Shafer. At the time of his hiring he was a decade removed from his last sustained success, fresh off driving a respectable Syracuse program into Washington State territory. As a head coach, he sounded like an idiot. His team played like he was an idiot. Michigan hired him and has gotten exactly what they deserved.

The worst part other than the illusion and the actual progress and the relentless losing is that this was obvious at the time:

Anyway: being a stunningly incompetent head coach does not necessarily mean one is a stunningly incompetent coordinator. Numbers will have to make that case. Go, numbers, go!

Year Team PassEff Rush Scoring Total
2008 Syracuse 101 101 101 101
2007 Syracuse 109 108 104 111
2006 Syracuse 81 110 72 107
2005 Syracuse 37 97 67 57
2004 Texas 31 16 18 23

Er.

tweek-aargh_1440

I'm a little stressed out by that. Robinson walked into a good situation at Texas* and managed not to screw that up, then went to Syracuse, where he had an average defense on a horrid team (1-10), which he then proceeded to crater for the next three years. Before his brief, star-making turn at Texas—again, for doing nothing more than treading water—he presided over one of the worst defenses in the NFL, getting fired after three years. The last actual success you can plausibly attribute to Greg Robinson came during his tenure as the Denver Broncos' DC, when his defenses were top ten in the NFL and a significant aid in Denver's back-to-back championships. Since then it's been abject failure save the one year in Texas.

Now it's even more blitheringly obvious. Syracuse is 6-2 despite Doug Marrone having R-U-N-N-O-F-T huge swathes of Robinson's leftover pack of unmotivated jackaninnies and while Scott Shafer's defense has gotten bombed in a couple games and is severely overrated because of games against two terrible I-AA schools and the worst I-A school (0-9 Akron, 56-10 losers to WMU and everyone else), the last two weeks they've allowed 7 and 14 points in road games against West Virginia and Cincinnati. Neither of those teams is good at offense, but neither is Penn State.

Greg Robinson is a terrible football coach. Hiring him was literally the dumbest thing Rich Rodriguez could have done, and he did it. Hiring Jay Hopson to see him leave two years later was a terrible decision, as was whatever the fiasco was with Shafer. The rot on defense goes deeper than Robinson, though—Michigan has insisted on being "multiple" this year, to what purpose is unknown. Week after week Michigan plays teams that sit in a 4-3 with a two-deep shell and play defense adequately enough for this Michigan team to be headed for a New Year's Day Bowl; Michigan has not maintained the same system year-to-year during the Rodriguez era, largely because the leftover guys on the staff are all 3-3-5 guys and they keep insisting that these DCs who have never run the system become One of Us. Braves and Birds nailed this problem when he compared it to Tommy Tuberville's zombie offensive assistants submarining Tony Franklin and eventually Tuberville himself.

Michigan's addiction to the 3-3-5 is causing them to do the exact same thing Rodriguez rejected as dumb his first year when he installed the spread because that's what he knew how to coach—they're shoehorning a coach into a system when that coach doesn't even know how to properly align his middle linebacker. At left, Michigan's horrible defense. At right, West Virginia's excellent 2007 D:

ezeh-nt-right-1wvu-2007-inside-zone

Kenny Demens finally moved further from the LOS in the second half of the Penn State game. The supposedly attacking, slanting, different-front-making defense has been a passive heap of quivering goo coached by someone who clearly doesn't understand what the system he is running is supposed to accomplish. Robinson's been put in a terrible position, but he has no track record save blithering idiocy and there is no reason to retain him.

As for Rodriguez, well, hell. The are four games left, for one. Michigan is #4 in total yardage nationally and isn't scoring at an insane pace only because the special teams and defense have been beyond terrible. The special teams were not a problem before this year and really the only problem this year has been the kicker*, which is a thing that just happens sometimes in college. If they overhaul the defensive coaching by either bringing in an actual 3-3-5 guy like Jeff Casteel—who may be in need of a job after the season—or toss the Tuberville saboteurs overboard and bring in a Serious Man, I'd be willing to see where the Denard Robinson era ends up.

*(Willing to bet that by year's end Michigan isn't giving up any yards on an average exchange of punts; kickoff returns have been bad but that's an incredibly minor facet of the game—an average team is gaining one more yard per attempt than M.)

Bullets

Change please. How many terrible decisions does Jeremy Gallon have to make before he loses his job at returning things?

Also: gararagagagargh Vincent Smith third and two. Hopkins's fumble was not his fault; Robinson put the ball in his shoulder. (I'm surprised he handed the ball off high—if Smith was in the game Robinson's handoff would have been in Smith's facemask.) Shaw can't be healthy, Cox is not healthy, Toussaint is not healthy… it's actually possible that Angry Michigan Running Back Hating God has been more wroth than Angry Iowa Running Back Hating God this year. The tailback situation is so bad that even Fred Jackson has gone no sugarcoat:

“We have to play better,” Jackson said. “Let’s call a spade a spade. We’ve got to play better. We’ve got plays there to be made and we’re not making them, I’m talking from the running back position.

“We have to play better.”

This is different from Jackson's usual approach of calling a spade a fantastical thousand-story casino in the clouds.

DerpBord. The circumstances behind hiring Greg Robinson are eerily similar to those behind the re-hire of Mike DeBord after his "no mas" faceplant at Central Michigan, down to the seemingly more competent guy being pushed out due to unconfirmed but widely speculated conflict. One dollar Robinson is assistant (to the) linebackers coach in the NFL next year.

The Ron English Effect. The next defensive coordinator (or next head coach, depending) is in line for a mega Ron English Effect, wherein some guy takes over a crew of players returning a ton of starters and looks like a genius for improving them when all he really did is not prevent his players from aging normally. In 2006, Ron English inherited Alan Branch, Lamarr Woodley, David Harris, Prescott Burgess, Shawn Crable, and Leon Hall and looked like a genius. The next year absent all those guys save Crable he was bombed into oblivion during The Horror and Post-Apocalyptic Oregon Game.

Anyway, next year's DC gets every starter back save Mouton, Rogers, and Banks, adds Troy Woolfolk, and should have a healthy Mike Martin. He could pick his teeth and look SMRT.

Martin doom. It's clear by now that Martin's injury is the dreaded high ankle sprain and we probably won't see him play effectively the rest of the season. Hurray.

Elsewhere

Aw, hell, it's just variations of this with either equal or slightly less tolerance for Rodriguez's terrible choices on the defensive side of the ball. I do like the Hoover Street Rag saying the "shields are down." That's about right. Zook is loading his photon torpedoes.

Comments

TennBlue

November 1st, 2010 at 1:37 PM ^

If Michigan needed a head coach and Rich Rodriguez was available, I'd still want him hired in a heartbeat.  Bad luck choosing a DC doesn't make him a bad coach.

Long term, I can't think of anyone else I would want coaching this team.  Solve the DC problem and we're set for a very long time.

Blue2000

November 1st, 2010 at 1:47 PM ^

Bad luck choosing a DC doesn't make him a bad coach.

Yes, but bad decision-making might.  The GERG hire had red flags all over it, but RR hired him anyways.  That's not bad luck.  That's bad management.

I don't think RR should be fired, because of the success he's had on offense.  But I think the defensive decision-making should be taken out of his hands entirely. 

M-Wolverine

November 1st, 2010 at 2:24 PM ^

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and three times is enemy action?
<br>
<br>I guess you could say it's bad luck, or coincidence...but you're right, because it's happened more than once. So that's a lot of bad luck going on other there. Makes you think luck has less to do with it.

myrtlebeachmai…

November 1st, 2010 at 2:37 PM ^

GERG is not solely to blame.  I think it's obvious this isn't his style of D.  Seeing that we've gone thru 3 guys now, and at least one has been publicly stated to "not have been a good fit", and our current guy is not coaching any Ds that he's ever utilized before, I think the issue lies with the rest of the D staff.

Back when that group was brought on board I remember shuddering.  Too many Louisville/WVU (and others) that were absolute shootouts.  Last team with ball won.  It scared me to death.  I remember thinking how I'd love to win by outscoring for once, but I din't want us to be pointless on D.

Truth is I don't think even Casteel could win with this group of players.  It's not as if he's some "missing link".  We may be better, sure, but not that much.  The youth and inexperience will never be given enough credit.  To that point though, I do think the rst of the D staff comes to blame again:  Coming out of HS alot of these kids are atheletes, period.  They need coached up on technique and scheme.  Those are both "position coach" issues.

I doubt we can change things much by replacing the D coordinator, not if it means "fitting" someone else in to work with the rest of the staff.  I also doubt we can keep GERG and get assistants that would work better with a different system.  I dont think RR would ever go for it, he's too loyal (to a fault now). 

If there's change to be made, I think the only solution is to clean house on the entire D side.  Whether we ride this out, or make changes, ultimately we will also have to agree to give any system a year or two to get more experienced players in it, whatever "it" is.  Or, as Brian points out, we can keep hiring a new guy every year, and in two years, someone will look like a genious.

lunchboxthegoat

November 1st, 2010 at 1:42 PM ^

I've sunken past the Morrissey level depression and onto Elliott Smith level depression.... I can't say I know what's lower than here. Please Michigan Football Program do not let me see what's below here....

swdude12

November 1st, 2010 at 1:44 PM ^

Im all in for RR...I hope and believe that he will be given 1 more year.  I trust Brandon will make the right descion and that the program is headed in the right direction.  The offense is awesome, the problem is all the youth on the defense side of the ball and GERG doesnt seem to be a good fit running the D.  The LBs are just horrible and he has not had good development with them at all.

htownwolverine

November 1st, 2010 at 1:45 PM ^

Our offense is prolific and not just against bad teams. DRob is breaking every rushing QB record known to football.

We don't need the 86 Bears squad, we need the 2010 Auburn and Oregon squads. The top two teams in the BCS have meh D.

After seeing that photo of Demens, I now believe it is the D system/coaches. We are at a serious schematic disadvantage.

Bring in a new D staff next year and give RR one more go. With his offense we only need an average D to win 10 games.

Brandon could say, "Look mofo you lucky I don't can your azz, but your D sucks and you better get a new recipe." It worked for Dominos, just saying. Then again Dave probably has better phraseology being a CEO and all.

Why is today numb vs. MSU loss angry?????????

funkywolve

November 1st, 2010 at 2:45 PM ^

and not just against bad teams.  Unfortunately, this prolific offense hasn't been that prolific when we needed it in the last 3 games.  In the last 3 games, UM has found it's itself down:  31-10 to MSU entering the 4th quarter, 28-7 to Iowa entering the 4th quarter and 31-10 to PSU early in the second half. 

In the last 3 weeks, 49 of the 76 points UM has scored have occurred once the opponent has built a comfortable lead.  It'd be nice if this prolific offense would score some points in the first half.

Six Zero

November 1st, 2010 at 1:53 PM ^

is a Dreadlock-On-Fire Surgical Strike Team that's only going to get more dangerous... I love watching Denard play and he's a great player to have in the winged helmet.  I also daydream about what will continue to happen as this system is further absorbed by the team.  Congrats, Rich, on what you've done well.

Beyond that, the Rich era has been an utter failure.  Let's stop being polite and and stop talking about potential-- WE'RE 13-19, and there's no way to argue that we're in the darkest era of modern Michigan football.  It's not all Rodriguez's fault, but either way he is the man responsible.  Bill Martin is the next closest scapegoat, but that's a moot point now anyway.

I can't sit here and agree that having the #1 offense in the country just isn't a substitute for for the box scores.  I'd rather have the most boring offense in the country and be 8-0 or 7-1 than having a record-setting offensive juggernaut alongside a laughable, beatable defense.

The idea of surrendering my allegiance to the Michigan Wolverines is a laughable and as realistic as me trying to grow wings and fly to Jupiter.... BUT I'll go public:  my faith in Rich officially was lost in Happy Valley on Saturday night.

CRex

November 1st, 2010 at 2:06 PM ^

If you coupled our current offense with say the "Defense of Death" we had in the days of Branch, Woodley, Harris, Crable, Hall, etc.  Where the other team is constantly punting it back to us and Denard is getting the ball.  

During the UConn game a lot of us remarked how our best defensive player was Denard.  Those long drives he was running kept the UConn offense off the field.  The tables have been turned now though and Denard is the guy sitting on his hands for 14 play drives while some big old B10 RB waddles down the field and eventually punches it in.  

bouje

November 1st, 2010 at 2:17 PM ^

Be a dominant defense if only the coaches weren't ham-stringing these poor kids..
<br>
<br>Come on dude. It's a little of
<br>
<br>A: not enough talent
<br>B: not enough experience
<br>C: not enough depth
<br>D: coaching
<br>
<br>

mgoblue0970

November 1st, 2010 at 5:57 PM ^

I can't sit here and agree that having the #1 offense in the country just isn't a substitute for for the box scores.  I'd rather have the most boring offense in the country and be 8-0 or 7-1 than having a record-setting offensive juggernaut alongside a laughable, beatable defense

Les Miles would be coaching then.

stubob

November 1st, 2010 at 1:48 PM ^

C'mon Brian, where's the Morrissey lyrics?  Amongst the incoherent jabbering from the announcers on Saturday (seriously, Terrell Wheatley?), when they said Martin was out for the game, I should have turned the tv off.  But no, like a loyal fan, I watched Penn State convert a 3rd and 15 and run out the clock.

Without one solid player on defense, I don't care if it's a 3-3-5, 4-3, or 7-7-4, the offense will exploit the defensive line for 3-4 yards per play.  I understand the use of the nickel to help our headless chicken secondary, but ultimately the offense will take what they are given.

I've seen enough to be convinced that RichRod isn't a defensive coach.  I get that, I'm ok with it.  Bad recruiting decisions, bad personel decisions, all that stems from this fact.  He's an offensive coach.  Fine.  He's even said as much this season.

I've been against coaching changes in favor of stability, but if we can get someone who knows the scheme, get him.  Hire Jeff Casteel.

SysMark

November 1st, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^

Rough stuff, but probably all true.  I don't think it makes much difference whether GERG is gone now or after the season - depends on whether you want the drama of an in-season move.

I will say this.  I thought the defense picked it up somewhat after RR's tirade at PSU.

TennBlue

November 1st, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^

It looks like they're all afraid of making mistakes, so they're being too tentative as a result (and thus making even more mistakes).  This is where the lack of senior leadership is really hurting.  They need someone to step up and start playing balls out.

blueheron

November 1st, 2010 at 1:59 PM ^

"... having R-U-N-N-O-F-T huge swathes of Robinson's leftover pack of unmotivated jackaninnies ..."

Thanks -- I needed that.  Cheers, also, for "DerpBord" and "The Ron (1-19) English Effect."

Ziff72

November 1st, 2010 at 1:59 PM ^

So guys that win the Super Bowl as defensive coordinators are terrible football coaches?  

Brian you need to calm down.  

Option 1-Greg Robinson lied and cheated his way thru 40 years of coaching.   Pete Carrol, Mike Shanahan, Dick Vermeil, Mack Brown etc... all knew Greg was the slow kid in class so they risked their million dollar a year dream jobs just to keep him employed and they secretly allowed their other assistants to mold the gameplans behind Greg's back so they could field competitive defenses and in Shanahans case 2 Super Bowls.  This was devised so that Greg could eventually get his own gig and they wouldn't be saddled with carrying him anymore.   Rodriguez was then unwittingly duped into continuing the cycle when his wife became friends with Greg's wife and now RR sits.

Option 2- He's made some bad decsions in trying to figure out the best way to cobble together shit,  chicken wire, and duct tape into a house.  Could he have made a shelter to keep you somewhat dry and warm if he put it together just the right way?   Probably.   Does it mean he doesn't know how to build a house because his shit roof collapsed?  We don't have enough data.

G Robinson has not impressed me as our coordinator and maybe he is not a great playcaller, but he has enought knowlege to get it done here.   To suggest otherwise you must be Oliver Stone.  

Ask yourselves this.   When you see RR on the sideline and you see all the shit he has been thru do you think he wouldn't fire his own mother if she wasn't holding up her end of the bargain?

Stay the course, stay the course.

 

 

   

iawolve

November 1st, 2010 at 2:23 PM ^

At KC, who I follow as my pro team, he was a disaster for the reasons that the defense did not develop their talent, improvement of the unit performance did not materialize and he wasted one of the top offensive units his last year by bleeding so many points. The guy was dropped into a Texas unit of draft picks including a first round MLB and a Vince Young offense to pick up slack. However, we still put up some great offensive numbers in that Rose Bowl with a freshman (!) quarterback. If you look at his recent performance elsewhere, his performance now and the fact that he is only a scheme guy, not a recruiter, prospects do not look good in regards to his ability to turn it all around since he will not be the person to bring in the talent to fix the holes. 

Sometimes we are able to succeed due to the situation around us. Maybe that was the situation in Denver, this is not that situation for GERG. That being said, Tall and Gibson should be also testing the real estate market as they are the other two consistent pieces for the the 3 worst defenses in the history of UM. I would not support a change of GERG and not clean out the entire unit. Actually, I would rather have someone besides RR make the hire, would trust Brandon and a hand selected group of former alums to make that choice with consultation from RR. 

greenphoenix

November 1st, 2010 at 2:31 PM ^

This is the same defense that was playing for the last seven games. Outraged calls for Robinson's head were not part of this follow-up, or (more tellingly) after the UFR.

So settle down. Here's an alternative theory: defensive coordinators were very disappointed with what they had so far, and decided to try a lot of shifts based on the assumption that the players had enough experience to make the adjustment. Their goal was to completely confuse Penn State and maybe get some additional value by putting bodies in places based on their speed, height, etc.

Aaaaaannnd....total fail. Whose idea was this? Hard to say. But last week they did the same thing with Demens and everyone wanted to throw a party.

This was an aggressive maybe even desperate decision, based on the hope that this undermanned, shockingly young team might have learned enough about football in the last three months to make some major adjustments to position. It didn't work.

The alternative was probably going to be similar: grinding, painful, long descent into failure. But at least they tried.

Misogopen is much more on about this than Brian. Simmer down, Mr. Cook. This is the part of the season where your fandom starts to show. We love you for it, but NOW you call for his head? Deep breath. UFR. Onward.

snowcrash

November 1st, 2010 at 2:55 PM ^

It's possible that he's good at putting a defense together when he has a good collection of players, but not so good at improvising when he doesn't have much to work with.

If he is let go at the end of the season, we should try to find a DC with a track record of (a) developing young players and (b) putting together defenses where the whole appears to be greater than the sum of the parts. Most importantly, he needs to be able to run his own scheme and pick his own position coaches.

jmblue

November 1st, 2010 at 2:55 PM ^

G Robinson has not impressed me as our coordinator and maybe he is not a great playcaller, but he has enought knowlege to get it done here.   To suggest otherwise you must be Oliver Stone. 

Somehow you forgot about Option 3 - that GERG was once a good coordinator, but no longer is.  The game changes.  Offenses are hugely different than they were a decade ago, much less two decades ago.  And coaches' careers follow the same trajectory (rise, then decline) as people in any other profession.  There's a reason why so many of them falter late in their careers.  The game changes and they can't always adapt.  There is nothing logically inconsistent in believing that GERG was a good DC in 1998 but is not in 2010.  Conversely, it takes a willful ignorance to believe that he is a good DC in 2010 when we've seen him consistently fail for the past decade. 

Ziff72

November 1st, 2010 at 3:32 PM ^

The point of my post is not to say Greg was ever a great defensive coordinator.   I personally don't like the timing of his blitzes or the fact he sells out on those blitzes.  

What I tried to say was that people in an irrational state seem to think he devised some defense in his basement that nobody else uses and is fundamentally flawed and doesn't work.  I find that silly(even though it sure looks like it).

We have yet to hear from any of his former players or coaches that he was some lunatic that did not know what he was doing.  We have consistently heard about how he is a good teacher of the fundamentals.   We have not heard he is some great schematic coordinator.  If we had it to do over I would have liked to hire someone else, but as I've stated all over the board today I think next year can be special and I'd like to keep the continuity going because we will still be a little young in the back 7 so I'd like to build on the little bit of experience we get this year.   He doesn't have to get us to the 97 defense.  I think we can win the Big Ten next year with the 50th defense.   He may have lost something, but if a guy with his experience can't cobble together a 50-60th defense with that dline next year than he is senile.

 

Magnum P.I.

November 1st, 2010 at 9:13 PM ^

Dude, no one's saying he's a lunatic or that he draws up defensive schemes with his own shit while smoking crack. We're saying that he's not an effective coach now, whereas he possibly once was.

Maybe he's just old and tired and doesn't work as hard or spend as much time keeping up with developments in the field. This happens in every profession. Maybe he can't connect with kids as well anymore or doesn't have the energy to nurture relationships as much. Who the hell knows what the reason is. What we do know is that he has demonstrated no capacity for success as a football coach over the past near-decade.

cjpops

November 1st, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^

Anyway, next year's DC gets every starter back

I don't understand how this is cause for any kind of optimism about the defense next year.  None of these guys look good now.  Just what any DC wants...all the starters back from this horrifying defense.  1 year doesn't seem like it will make that much difference.  Look for UM to be 100th or worse in defense again next year...no matter who is coaching.

Blue in Yarmouth

November 1st, 2010 at 2:25 PM ^

and it suggests to me that you know nothing about football (or any other sport for that matter).

By your logic, athletes have reached their peak when they are between 18-20.......Do you honestly contend that it isn't likley for these guys, most of which are freshmen and sophmores, won't improve from one year to the next? Have you followed this sport before?

I am not saying they will be a top ten defense, but to suggest they won't improve when the only player they are losing is a decent (maybe using the term losely) LB while returning everyone else, is one of the least intellegent things I have read over the past few days on here.....and that is saying something.

M-Wolverine

November 1st, 2010 at 2:34 PM ^

The question is, will it be "greatly"? The biggest question facing Michigan football, that will determine a lot of decisions is "is the defense young, talented, and inexperienced" or "is it young, inexperienced, and talentless"? (Martin excluded and rating on a Michigan not Purdue scale).

funkywolve

November 1st, 2010 at 3:21 PM ^

It depends on IF players improve.  If Ezeh and Mouton had improved over the last 3 years we might be looking at a decent defense.  Unfortunately, I don't think there's been a lot of improvement in these two players in 3 years.  Has JT Floyd shown much improvement since last year?

It's nice to think that everyone will improve some each year. However, that's not always the case.

08mms

November 1st, 2010 at 5:26 PM ^

Maybe, but god knows every traditional metric in recruiting (stars, quality high schools, ect.) indicates they should be at least decent when they mature.  Ideally the coaching ensures that it is a "when" and not an "if" but mayhap the unlucky fate that has brought the high attrition also applies to their underlying abilities as well.

cjpops

November 1st, 2010 at 11:08 PM ^

I certainly hope they mature to become decent.  Actually, I hope they get better than that.  However, question still remains as to whether they will make that improvement in one year or more than that.  Since most of these cats are freshmen (not redshirt freshment), I'm betting on two years.

M-Wolverine

November 1st, 2010 at 2:04 PM ^

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PAAANNNNNIIIIICCCCCC!!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
<br>
<br>So you're saying she won the argument, Brian?
<br>
<br>(And I kiss as much Lloyd ass as anybody, but with no real post-leaving track record data to prove me right, I still think the biggest mistake Lloyd ever made was not grooming Terry Malone to take over the program for him. Innovative offensive mind who got thrown out for one bad year with 0 healthy offensive linemen with a multi-year failing defense, that had the character and youth to be a good coach for a long time, and enough coordinator experience after 2 more years.)

ijohnb

November 1st, 2010 at 2:11 PM ^

ultimately falls on Rich Rod's shoulders.  Talk of Greg Robinson's future is just deflection.  This would be the second time the defensive coordinator was the problem, correct.  You will not hear me say that Rich Rod should be fired, etc., but if the conversation is actually going to center around firing Greg Robinson it is not a conversation worth having. 

mgoblue0970

November 1st, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^

I'm amazed at all the lingering hate for Matt Millen.  He was only in Detroit for 8 years.  The Lions haven't won crap in 52.  Have you forgotten about Russ Thomas??????????????????????????????????????

GoBlueInNYC

November 1st, 2010 at 4:15 PM ^

After Millen's resignation, I remember hearing a talking head describe Millen's tenure as "taking a perpetually mediocre franchise and turning it into the perrenial basement of the league." It's not that he took a good team and turned them bad, he took a team that was generally in the middle (OK, maybe low-middle) of the pack and turned it into a constant embarrassment.

mgoblue0970

November 1st, 2010 at 5:49 PM ^

Listen, I'm no fan of Millen, WCF, or any of them.  Especially now Mayhew too... given the $15 M he left the team with in dead money this season.  But with 1 playoff win in 52 seasons, how can anyone call the Lions a "middle" team???

By way of comparison, the other 0-fer team, Tampa, has won a Super Bowl in that time frame.

FIFTY-TWO seasons!!!