MLIVE article on why Frankie transferred
This was published yesterday and has some very informative nuggets. I don't see it posted on the board or quoted on the Llewyllen front page post or posted in the comments there or on the transfer to ASU post.
https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2022/05/why-did-frankie-collins-transfer-from-michigan.html
Apparently Collins family was really (irrationally, IMO) concerned about competition at the PG position as they apparently called the staff after Dug was recruited (c'mon, he's a class behind you), and when Sessoms named Michigan as a finalist despite Michigan not even being interested.
The money quotes:
“He is a point guard who could play combo (guard), not a combo who could play point,” Martelli said.
Thought this was interesting because the thinking was that he was brought in as two guard but they like him better at point.
“I know that Juwan more than anybody was prepared for the conversation (with Collins),” Martelli said. “He didn’t think it would be an easy conversation when Llewellyn’s information came out.”
They knew there was a strong risk of him leaving so it wasn't the surprise we thought. Seems like they effectively directly chose Llewellyn over Collins. I had surmised as much, considering that they probably wouldn't have given Frankie the assurances he needed if they still thought he'd play a lot of minutes and that makes me feel better that this was an anticipated outcome.
would* have given Frankie the assurances he needed if they still saw him playing a lot of minutes...
also just realized I didn't make it clear that the first quote is talking about Llewellyn, apologies!
I hope Frankie does well, but players who are afraid of competition usually don't become stars.
The “Ben Simmons” rule.
I don't think Ben Simmons is afraid of competition. He's been the best player on the court his whole life without needing the ability to shoot the ball and when he got to the NBA and learned he's no longer as good as he thought and has to improve he got scared. His confidence is gone. That's my armchair psychologist opinion of Ben Simmons.
I will just point out that, when Simmons was consensus #1 prospect, he chose to do his one year of college at... LSU. Which had zero other NBA prospects, had not developed a top-level NBA prospect since probably Shaq or Pistol Pete, and which offered no useful training for the NBA. What LSU also didn't have was competition -- no other NBA guys to bang with in practice and compete for time with. Dook, Kentucky, Kanses, etc.... there is a reason guys like Simmons go to THOSE places and not LSU. Simmons' choice of LSU, to me, was an early indication -- this dude doesn't like competition that might suggest he's not what he thinks he is. He wants to be told he's #1, the best, better than everyone, but doesn't react well when it turns out he isn't. Hence... everything that happened after he passed up that wide-open layup/slam.
Simmons specifically chose LSU because Wade assured him he'd have no accountability in regards to school, training, or on the court. That alone should have been a massive red flag to the NBA.
I agree with most of the comments so far, but I think we may restrict our understanding if we frame Frankie's decision as fear.
As the article and comments also suggest, players transfer for a mix of reasons. That is, like decisions all of us make at times.
And though Michigan has Tom Brady as a key example at one extreme, considering a transfer but staying to become a star, other players transfer and it works out for them.
Wishing Frankie luck.
I don’t begrudge any player for doing what they think is best for them, but I think there has been a VERY small hit rate for players transferring away from Michigan and finding success where they’ve landed.
Sam McGuffie notwithstanding
Dude runs a mean bobsled.
It is very small. Thomas Rawls comes to mind.
And in basketball, I'd say it's a bit higher. Ibi Watson had a really nice couple of years at Dayton and Colin Castleton also did at Florida. Neither became pros but they did seem to find good spots for them.
Frankie is probably on the same trajectory. He wanted to start so he'll get time. He'll probably be a solid college player.
But Michigan didn't really miss any of those players either. Sometimes it works out for everyone.
Castleton just graduated--whether he becomes a pro is still to be determined.
Yes, sorry I should clarify to say "neither are likely to be NBA players".
Ibi Watson is technically a pro as he plays in the G League.
And Castleton will almost certainly play there or overseas at the very least.
". . . other players transfer and it works out for them."
True.
Colin Castleton might’ve been worried about playing time at Michigan when he learned that Hunter Dickinson would be joining the team in 2020 with a good chance to move ahead of Castleton to start at center. During his two seasons, playing in 44 games with no starts at Michigan, Castleton went back to his home state of Florida, became a starter for the Gators and was second team All-SEC during his two seasons there.
After two seasons at Michigan, point guard David DeJulius also left after the 2019-20 season to play for Cincinnati. He started every game for the Bearcats, led them in scoring and was third team All-AAC this past season.
Cole Bajema also left after the 2019-20 season to go home to play for his home-state team at Washington where he’s been a reserve shooting guard and averaged 5.4 points and just under 20 minutes a game this past season.
Brandon Johns Jr. and Zeb Jackson will be playing for the VCU Rams next season. VCU was 22-10 this past season and lost in the second round of the NIT.
I liked Castleton a lot and thought he could've learned a lot under JH, a noted expert of big men/post play. And I really thought Bajema had a ton of potential and was surprised in his first season when JH would put in Nunez ahead of him. Same thing for Zeb, a similar player to Bajema, I thought he was really going to break out this season but I guess he just didn't click with the staff.
I love DeJulius too. Frankie feels like a notch up from his talent level but I bet he ends up like second team PAC whatever. Still don't like he left. I thought Princeton kid and him had complementary skills and could spell each other while Dug developed.
Bummed to lose him but program will survive fine and as a school, we are built to better thrive in this era more than most, despite our admissions office. Sure would have been nice to be able to grab TTech kid, but next up.
Not to mention Llewellyn can play the two. It's not like Bufkin is going to play 40 min a game.
80 minutes at the guards spots means quite a bit for three guys. Even if Frankie wasn't starting, he'd be playing 20+ minutes if he thinks he's a decent P5 player.
Yeah, I hope Collins's choice reflects his camp's fear more than his own. At least that means as he continues to grow up and make his own decisions later it will be easier for him to shed the fear of the adults close to him.
But yeah, idk, i thought Collins at the 1 and Lewellyn at the 2 would have been fine, not sure why he felt the need to leave with a freshman 5'10 point guard behind him.
I think his parents might have an inflated opinion of Frankie's shooting ability.
They've would have been the only ones. Frankie is "drive & dish" and has little next level potential. His parents think he is LaMelo.
Frankie went to 4 different HS during his 4 yr HS career, enough said.
He's on track to go to four different colleges in four years.
*Four different colleges in six years.
(The free transfer rule is only for the first transfer...)
I understand there's a lot that goes into recruiting, but I cannot imagine (if there are stats to back it up) that a college has good success with an athlete that goes to more than two high schools. I start getting nervous when I see two high schools attended and if there is three or more I just assume that they will transfer at some point.
I would think two schools is now a positive sign since a lot of the best players leave school after their Jr years to play at the basketball factories like Montverde, IMG, etc.
Three is a bit of a red flag. Four is...something.
Amen.
But why did we invest in this family. The minute he faces adversity they (family) run. Miss by Juwan. Hopefully he learns.
Talk to the first 3 coaches. I get 1 transfer to upgrade. Coaching staff had some thinking to do it's emoni Bates without the potential nonsense.
Maybe his parents should have taught him how to shoot
This is the problem with parents. They think that little Timmy should be the starting pitcher, so they take him away from his school friends at the local team and put him in another league. When he gets older, they sell their house and move to another school district because the high school coach isn't starting him. On and on it goes until the end of a child's unsatisfying amateur career.
My best friend's parents growing up were certain he was the next Nolan Ryan. Moved him out of the school he knew against his wishes to the much worse (academically at least) school across town because he was guaranteed a spot there. Never played beyond high school but lost academic opportunities and friends for the trouble.
Ace had a tweet showing that basically no one with Frankie's freshman shooting numbers ever became a starting guard at a power 5 program. Love his athleticism and playmaking ability but he shot even worse than X in his freshman year.
He's the most overrated player I can ever remember at Michigan. He quite frankly (no pun intended) had a horrible freshmen season.
With an Ortg of 82.6, he was probably the disaster factory of the year in the Big Ten.
He did have a nice first round NCAA game. He'll always have that, but man, he was not good on the whole and all people seem to remember were a couple highlight plays.
I hope he learns to shoot because he is wildly athletic. But right now, he's the guard version of Air Georgia.
He didn’t play near enough to qualify for the disaster factory
Maybe not, but 25% of team minutes. That's quite a bit. Its a true rotational / top 8 minutes guy.
Collins had a really nice two games. That’s it. And he also had the element of surprise there. Teams will adjust to a player with zero shooting ability. He seemed like an ideal backup guard, but not a future star.
Having concerns about bringing in another grad transfer PG is understandable to a certain extent. Calling the coaching staff because Dug McDaniel committed is the most telling part. This was going to be an ongoing problem regardless.
Yeah, that's just bonkers. Michigan was set to lose two guys that can play PG (jones and brooks). Of course they were going to recruit another PG. They had to.
And to be concerned about Dug McDaniel? Come on. Have a bit more confidence in yourself / your kid.
If your goal is the NBA and you think you can make it to the League and you get scared off by an Ivy League player...that seems to be next level cognitive dissonance.
Sounds like he was scared off by a guy recruited a class behind him. And if the coaches thought Dug McDaniel was ready right now they wouldn't have brought in Llewellyn.
Llewelyn would have made Frankie a better player.
It’s really sad when a kid should know better but he has to listen to foolishness from people he is supposed to trust.
Do they all think we should be running with one point guard with no backup and no shooting guard. Seriously wtf. Smash my head on the table.
Is that a request?
Last night it might have been. Today I think I prefer it just be a figure of speech.
As is not liking what you don't want to hear and then going to play for a Hurley.
“There’s nobody in our program saying, ‘He abandoned us.’ With the guidance of his family, he’s looking for a great college basketball experience. We support that. We absolutely support that.
“There will be no bigger fans of Frankie Collins than our coaching staff.”
Martelli is such a good guy. Just further proof of how lucky we are to have him as the head coach.
What you say and what you’d like to say….
Nice find. Sums this up perfectly. And i honestly thought there was no bigger competitor than Frankie Collins.
He even mentioned last year, when Devante came in, that he embraced the competition. Maybe he was just saying that because he thought Devante would only be there a year, then he would get the keys.
He was saying it because he thought it was the right thing to say. He clearly didn't mean it. Actions speak louder than words.