Serious Football Defense Question
Something that I’ve noticed for the past couple years is the lack of rotation on defense. Not just early on, but the starters playing almost the whole way through games even when the rout is on.
This makes me wonder if there is really that much lack of depth/confidence in anyone past the backups or if Don Brown uses that time to further iron out the kinks? Is this why we got boat raced by tOSU the past couple years because the starters got gassed late in the first half and there was no one with experience to spell them?
I just thought it was weird to see walk on players go on the field for the offense and, say, Devin Bush (last year) or Khaleke (both years) are still making plays for the defense.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
i think there are several things going on.
- Bush is a guy who you never want to take off the field because he's a generational talent;
- Hudson was so unique that he's a bit like Bush, but we also didn't have anyone with great experience backing him up;
- players like McGrone don't come out because they're still gaining valuable experience and every snap counts;
- Brown, like other DCs, wants to rotate. his inability to do so is more about lack of players than lack of desire.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:33 PM ^
Fair points, but wouldn’t it help with player retention to let say a Jordan Anthony touch the field? Not sure if it would change anything but at least it keeps hope in their head. It would at least, in theory, bring up the floor of the rotational players and get them some experience as well.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
he did touch the field. he was first in when Ross went out, performed pretty meh and then McGrone was given the next change. McGrone was great an that's history. i think Brian's point on the front page is that Anthony now is passed and might see the writing on the wall. your OP wanted to know why, even if Anthony got passed he still wouldn't get some good PT as a rotational piece. i think it's a fair question.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Have you been worrying about Anthony's future all along, or is this just now coming up because he's transferring?
December 5th, 2019 at 1:04 PM ^
Not really worried about anyone’s future, just wondered if seeing the field more would have led him to stay. Like I said the lack of rotation is something that I noticed the past couple years. It’s not single player specific but more depth development specific. Anthony’s departure just kind of brought this back up in my mind.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
It would have been nice for someone to backup Khaleke. that was his worst game that I have seen him play
December 5th, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^
I think we will see more rotation for the viper spot now that we’re starting to develop more depth for the position. Barrett should be the starter and Solomon should be his backup. Velazquez, Mohan, and Moten will provide depth. Moten will probably project to pure safety with possibility to play Viper if needed (but probably not needed)
December 5th, 2019 at 12:40 PM ^
You could be on to something, but this has nothing to do with the instances Michigan's D has been beaten badly lately. In the last 2 OSU games, Michigan wasn't able to stop OSU from the get-go. Same thing with Penn State this year when they scored early. Same thing even with Indiana this year when they put up 2 quick touchdowns before Michigan took over.
If you look at a lot of the games Michigan's defense has gotten blown away, it's mostly been from the start and lasted the duration of the game. The only time I think you could say Michigan's defense started fast but then let up is the bowl game against Florida last year. And that was not because of tiredness. That was because of multiple starters sitting out and some defensive players getting hurt.
December 5th, 2019 at 6:17 PM ^
Yes. The D seems totally shocked and taken by surpruise when they suddenly face opponents that are faster/more talented than they are used to. Sometimes they settle in, but more often than not, they seem to lack confidence throughout the rest of the game.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:41 PM ^
That's the only way to make DB look like a good DC.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^
Honestly man what is the point of watching football if 4 years with a Top 10 defense does not qualify their coach as even GOOD in your mind?
"I drove a Lambo today but it's not a Bugatti Chiron so it's a slow piece of shit."
December 5th, 2019 at 2:42 PM ^
It's the equivalent of a basketball player averaging 20 points a game, 40/game against terrible teams and 0/game against good teams.
He's known for his defensive adjustments, but why does he have to adjust his game plan every single game? How can he possibly have a terrible game plan going into every game? What a great coach.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:58 PM ^
So the entire rest of the country is just playing harder teams than us for the past 4 years? That's the only way your theory can be correct.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:24 PM ^
Not if he keeps his starters in and never plays the backups, which is what this post is about. It's really not that hard to figure out.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:42 PM ^
I actually think this is a great topic because there is a glaring lack of rotation on Defense. Ish made a solid point above talking about not rotating certain players, like Bush, Hudson, and McGrone. Those are superior players at their position, so why take them out. With the press-man coverage, you'd think those CB's wouldn't come out much. The DLine is where you would see the most rotation. 2015-2016 had a great rotation because the depth was outstanding. We haven't had that type of depth since then, which has resulted in very little rotation. The lack of developing talent, securing talent, and retaining talent, has been a huge hindrance for Jim Harbaugh and Don Brown. Because of that, you get OSU results against big-time opponents. This, along with QB play has made Michigan average.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:23 PM ^
So I'm not crazy, because I too remembered a lot of rotation in 2016 especially.
We're currently lacking depth all over the D, but there are backups. Shouldn't we be giving the 2's, 3's, and younger guys a chance to see the field and improve, especially during blowouts? Especially considering how many guys have left the program early due to lack of playing time or whatever else.
We all laughed at Rutger putting up points against OSU. But that's because their starters were already kicking back with a cold one. Which to my mind means their backups are more ready than ours, and they're also less likely to transfer away.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:42 PM ^
Username doesn't check out this time around, Mad Hatter. One of my biggest beefs with Harbaugh is the lack of getting the younger guys time during blowouts, whether winning or losing. Instead of putting in Milton/McCaffery in the last 6 minutes of that blowout against OSU, we had Shea finishing the game like he had something to prove and risking him getting killed.
McCaffery is in his third year under Harbaugh and maybe the starter next year, and yet, he's such an unknown. When he gets in its the most basic run attack you can fathom. Handoffs or keeps. Why not air it out and allow us to see what we have in the hooper?
What happened to the Harbaugh that pissed Pete Carroll off so much at the end of a beat down that Pete asked Harbaugh if everything was ok with him?
Besides a few games (MSU and Indiana) Michigan lacked the killer's instinct. The mindset of we're going to put a lot point on you and there's nothing you can do about it. Once we know you're done for we're going to put in our backups and their going to do the same. It's not running it up. It's not disrespectful. It's us exerting their wills and prepping for the next game. Instead, we'll play vanilla football for 5 years, where if we're going to beat you we'll do it with class by allowing you to hang around for 3+ quarters. This is why I just don't think Harbaugh is the right coach anymore.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:21 PM ^
I think not being able to beat OSU yet is making him insane. He knows we got fucked in 2016 and would have won in 2017 if not for JOK, and winning either of those games (2016 especially) would have changed the trajectory of the program.
Instead, he's playing from behind and catching shit from all sides, trying to figure out how to beat not only the best team in the country, but every other damn team that treats playing us like it's the Super Bowl.
It's really all about OSU. Beat them, just once, and the pressure is off. Can another coach do any better than Harbaugh? Maybe. But we're still too close to 08-14 for me to be wanting to blow up the program again.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:04 PM ^
The question that we should be asked ourselves then is how long does Harbaugh have to beat OSU and get Michigan to the Playoffs? Another 2-3 years? 5 Years? Lifetime contract because he's Harbaugh? How much of our belief in Harbaugh is due to the fact that he played for Michigan during the glory years of Bo? Can we separate emotions from business decisions?
I've always been on the opinion that coaches should get 5 years to build their programs, with the predicate that you see growth in the program. Can we say Michigan has grown from Year 1 to Year 5? Michigan is no closer to accomplishing those goals after Year 5 then he was in Year 1. I would argue this team is further away now.
Say what you want about RR and his faults (there were many), at least he improved his record, year-over-year. That wasn't good enough for Michigan, mainly because the alumni base, boosters, and new AD didn't like the idea of a non-Michigan Man running the show, so we fired him after Year 3. Hell, we gave Hoke (Michigan Man) an extra year even though the prior years showed a decline in performance.
With that said, Harbaugh has most definitely stabilized the program from RR and Hoke Era's, but are we growing? I don't see the growth. This team still hasn't been to the B1G title game, beaten OSU, or appeared in the playoffs. He's been close, but when push came to shove Michigan crumbled under the pressure.
Harbaugh has yet to develop a winning QB. The offensive line hasn't been as dominant as we expected it to be. Recruiting hasn't been up to snuff since his first two years. There are glaring issues on the defensive line and depth of the overall team. All of these issues come back to Harbaugh.
I'm just curious when does the fanbase have the right to hold Harbaugh accountable without being called a "Troll"?
December 5th, 2019 at 4:53 PM ^
Solid post and some good discussion points.
Personally, I think it's clear that Michigan has gotten way better in 5 years. But Ohio State has gotten way better too (they've probably improved more than us). Penn State has also gotten way better since he came.
I agree that the goal seems as far away as ever, but that's not because the program is stagnant. That's because OSU has literally become one of the three premier programs in college football in the last decade. And ever since Harbaugh has come they've just gotten better. The recruiting difference is just so massive at this point. And before you say that comes back to Harbaugh, there are always going to be kids that want to go to the top programs (Bama, Clemson, Ohio State) and we just haven't been that premier program in 20+ years, so it's not a realistic expectation to expect him to get some of the players OSU can. As dope of a school as Michigan is, I doubt that plays too much into the decision process of some of these 17-year-old future superstars. Recruiting on their level is a catch-22 until we can consistently beat them.
I only became a Michigan fan in 2008, and I live in Canada having never attended the school, so maybe my perception is drastically different from most of you. But how are you not seeing growth? 2 times in Harbaugh's 5 year tenure we've been 1 game away from going to the big10 championship and then a shot at the college football playoffs. It sucks we lost both of those games, but we were NEVER in that position with RR, and only once with Hoke. Even in Hoke's best year we came 2nd place in a division that didn't have Ohio State or Penn State. Oh and now is probably the first time in my 10 year tenure that Michigan can confidently say they're better than Michigan State.
All of these issues don't solely come back to Harbaugh. Especially if the only focus you want to look at is Ohio State. Ohio. State. Isn't. Solely. A. Harbaugh. Problem. We have 3 wins vs Ohio State in this Millenium. If you expected Harbaugh to just come in and magically start winning this matchup consistently then your expectations were unrealistic.
Again it's just from my perspective, but in the 10 years of being a fan of Michigan football Harbaugh has taken this program to new heights. It's definitely not the pinnacle we want to be at, but too many people seem to be focusing on this big game problem (Ohio State) that Harbaugh has when really it's just the fact that OSU is better than us in every facet. And it sucks to hear and it sucks to say, but its the truth. They've been better than us for so long, it's not just going to change within 5 years of Harbaugh coming along. Especially since most of his tenure has been against one of the most prolific college football coaches in the game.
I hold Harbaugh accountable for poor planning and execution in this game. I would love to be like Auburn and somehow always making plays against a clearly more talented team (bama) than us. But we made way too many mistakes on Saturday for that to be a possibility. That needs to be cleaned up for sure. It's not that we don't have talented players that are capable of winning this game. It's that we have less talented players, and we gave them the help that they definitely didn't need.
But I don't hold him accountable to an unrealistic expectation. At this point, I'd expect, at best, that Michigan could beat Ohio state 1 in every 5 years (that's been the rate this Millenium). He hasn't done that so far and it's been disappointing, but nowhere near a fireable offense.
As for all the transfers, welcome to the new CFB where the portal grants you instant eligibility and other coaches promise you a starting role.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:59 PM ^
That’s an interesting perspective, that the man who took our football program from respectable to a historic low of three wins is somehow a better coach than the guy who routinely wins 9/10 games because “growth”. I’m as frustrated as anyone about not beating OSU, and I don’t know the solution. But I’m pretty sure constant coaching changes aren’t the answer.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^
We were getting boat raced by OSU's offense from the first snap, so, no, that is not the reason.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:53 PM ^
We did force that one 3rd and 14.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:59 PM ^
[waves tiniest flag, which Cam McGrone fails to pickup out of the backfield]
December 5th, 2019 at 1:00 PM ^
When they converted that, that's when I knew things were not going to be a real good time.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:29 PM ^
The fumble in the red zone and then offsides on 4th down put me fully into BPONE. I enjoyed the first 3/16 of the game I guess?
December 5th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^
Coaching, the type of players being recruited and player development are major issues under Harbaugh and Don Brown. Urban Meyer stated that it is a myth that Michigan doesn't have players because he recruited them as well. If this is the case then the problem is flat out coaching which involves player development. Even if you have a 5 star recruit they have to be developed well. As far as Hudson. He was an average OLB and being drafted will be a long haul for him.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:52 PM ^
It’s beneficial to Urban Meyer to say he competed against like for like talent vs Michigan.
Several of the players on Michigan’s D over the years were recruited by both schools but 1) not all, and 2) not all who were recruited were takes by the time their senior year came around.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
Didn't Meyer point out the huge difference in size between OSU's o-line and UM's d-line? Is that coaching?
December 5th, 2019 at 12:45 PM ^
Did Josh Ross play in the game? I didn't notice.
I will wait for the UFR to tell me.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
He doesn't UFR the Ohio State game. I suspect he would if we won, but we never win.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:20 PM ^
He does UFR them. He's just 8 years behind.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^
Ross did not play according to the participation chart, so it would seem he'd be available for the bowl game.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:46 PM ^
I wonder if part of it is so the D doesn't get caught substituting or something? Simplicity? I gotta think these guys are gassed in the 4th quarter a lot, but then again maybe not because they're kicking people off the field so often
December 5th, 2019 at 12:47 PM ^
This is one of my complaints about Brown. When we are winning by 3+ TDs in the middle of the 4th quarter, he still has a bunch of starters in there. Those are great opportunities to build depth and morale for non-starters, and avoid potential injury to starters. Other than padding stats, I don’t understand why Brown does not rotate earlier in games where the result is already determined. I think this is bad for the program.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
Via rotation and packages Michigan plays a ton of guys on D regularly most years so don’t think this is a thing.
Since Don Brown came in they always play 3 corners, 3 safeties, 4+ LBs and 6-8 DL each game depending on if they have the horses.
They do like to leave in starters in blowouts which I think is mostly Don Brown hating garbage time stats.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
I blame Rutgers. The year they hadn’t gained a first down until the fourth string went in is when Don Brown stopped rotating.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
Depth was an issue this year, and if some key guys go pro depth could be an even bigger issue next year.
Think where we would have been without Mike Danna this season. We'll probably need to look for another grad transfer this off season.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^
Such a serious football defense question.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^
This is what makes me want to bang my head on my desk when I hear people talk about how light we were on the defensive line.
We had two giant humans who were recruited to play there. Both highly regarded. And they barely played all season. Instead the staff wasted God knows how much time throwing Ben Mason out there when he had no chance of being viable.
Yeah, Hinton and Smith are true freshmen. Who cares. They should have been getting reps all season to try to be ready for OSU.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^
Hinton probably doubled his total snaps during the year in the OSU game. Would have been nice to get him more snaps earlier in the year so he was better prepared.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:08 PM ^
Shirley
December 5th, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
Why so serious?
December 5th, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^
Mainly I didn’t want it to turn into HotTake-a-palooza. Deep down I hoped that someone with a greater football IQ than myself would have a real answer.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^
Don Brown's scheme is SO terrible...we should run the scheme OSU ran to get that #1 defense...oh wait...that is Brown's scheme...
December 5th, 2019 at 2:02 PM ^
I guess you missed it, but for the most part, the D-line was rotated all season. That's something they always want to do because it's hard to keep those guys going all game. For the OSU game, there was some rotation early and that stopped once it was clear we needed size at the DT position. Kemp stayed on the field at all times and Hinton played a lot because he's big. Not sure why Danna didn't get many snaps.
December 5th, 2019 at 4:53 PM ^
I know the dline rotates and so do the corners at some point because I see Gray out there. I meant like 4th quarter get the 3rd string and beyond into the game. I know he heavily rotates the dline but he’s switched to more 3-3-5 so even that is two ends out of Hutchison, Paye, Danna, Uche while rotating between two starting tackles.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:31 PM ^
Yeah I think virtually any DC worth their weight will rotate players for the sake of freshness. There are exceptions, be it absolute monster players that change the game (Bush) or high-importance guys that don't have a viable backup (Hudson, etc). The lack of dline rotation indicates what everyone else has seen and said; there is an alarmingly low amount of starter quality depth and that inhibits rotations.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:59 PM ^
Not sure I understand this take. Over the last few years our D Line rotated heavily. We basically had 7-8 deep on the D-line with Mattison and we rotated a ton. This year we didn't even have depth for 1 line, hence no rotation. I don't think this is something Don Brown is AGAINST, it's something our roster dictated this year.