Questions on "StalionsGate"
Since we are now deep into Scandal Obsession, here are a few questions that I have that I'd like some Board feedback on:
1. It seems to me that the only way this kind of signal intelligence could really provide a competitive advantage to the team is if Stalions was literally standing next to OC/DC during the game (probably with an electronic device in-hand) and telling the OC/DC the play that is about to come based on the signal. Isn't that right? And if it is, well, there should be plenty of video of Stalions on the sidelines doing exactly that in earlier games this year. In which case, this should be easy to prove or disprove, no?
2. Connected to the above, does having this kind of information really provide much of a competitive advantage at all? In my opinion, it would be a really, really limited advantage. Even assuming the opponent is using the exact same signals for all plays as used in earlier games (which seems crazy to me), the OC/DC would have literally seconds to learn what play is coming and then call in a revised formation to the offense or defense. That seems like it would do little but cause confusion.
3. Finally, is anyone else madder about the fact that it was done in such a sloppy way than about the alleged "cheating" itself? If this guy really bought tickets in his own name and transferred them to friends, he is painfully stupid. We live in 2023, the age of Venmo, Bitcoin and the Dark Web. Send cash, dude!
October 23rd, 2023 at 4:57 PM ^
This is going to get worse. Whether it has helped us or not is irrelevant now. This guy has clearly done some shit and it's gonna lead to probably something bad for the program at the worst possible time
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:08 PM ^
Maybe. This is what made the sense to me and seemed pretty obvious from the start. It is not clear at all reading the bylaws that what he has done is against the rules. He transferred tickets to people around the country. The people doing the filming are almost certainly not getting a W-2 from the University of Michigan athletic department. The reading of the rule says staffers can't scout in person. It doesn't say anything about friends or alumni voluntarily scouting.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:19 PM ^
In the court of public opinion, your legalize means nothing though
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:29 PM ^
I make a concerted effort to never base my opinion on what the crowd thinks. If it is clearly against the rules it will probably be not so great for the program. If it were volunteers doing the filming, I see it as being smart and praiseworthy. I don't care what anyone thinks. if it is legal.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:01 PM ^
I'm not opposed to that mattering not, to you. I'd be concerned about reaction leading to results. We've seen that the school will just take it on the chin to demonstrate their compliance. Court of public opinion certainly can influence that decision. If that impacts what we do on the field, then I think you'll care, yes?
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:50 PM ^
legalize it
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:25 PM ^
There's obviously a lot of gray area but does an unaffiliated person using tickets purchased by a Michigan staffer make them temporarily affiliated with the university? I guess it depends on whether there is any paper trail of communications where he directly tells the people he is providing tickets so that they can record the sidelines and provide him the video. I would think he wasn't stupid enough to leave a paper trail like this but then again he bought all the tickets under his own name and transferred them to others.
I could be way off on this take, we're all just kind of guessing here.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:13 PM ^
If they receive anything of value, they are likely to be considered part of the University. An blue ink pen with maize Michigan on it probably does not have value. Tickets definitely have value. Value in this context isn't necessarily the monetary amount.
Taking a wild guess ... Maybe they also got Michigan tickets or free lodging at his Airbnb as compensation? Or he rented his house to students for a discount and gave them tickets in exchange for them traveling to games and filming?
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:32 PM ^
What part of “persons affiliated with the institution” tells you they need to be on the payroll?
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:09 PM ^
Yeah the level of competitive advantage is meaningless.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:02 PM ^
The cheeseburger didn't get us one iota of competitive advantage and we lost our coach for 3 games
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:15 PM ^
Very true. Tattoo gate didn’t gain OSU a competitive advantage, but damn if I didn’t have to hear about that for 10 years plus
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:59 PM ^
They can try, but I suspect that the NCAA will be sued if they do try anything too severe.
Between their unprofessional conduct in how they have handled both investigations with the leaks and commenting, the lack of prescribed punishment for alleged violation(indicating lack of concern about said violation) that only concerns a method of acquiring information, and inability to link the program to any premeditation I don’t see wins being vacated.
I could see Harbaugh the program being fined and placed on probation.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:58 PM ^
Michigan is not going to sue the NCAA over this. The alleged behavior goes to the core of the rules -- competitive fairness -- and arguably fits within what is prohibited by the rule. The rule does not require premeditation, nor do NCAA slipups negate their ability to punish member institutions.
Also, the leak didn't necessarily come from the NCAA and might have been the best thing that could have happened to us in this situation. Every team from MSU forward knows that their signals might be compromised and therefore cannot later claim that Michigan's "signal stealing" cost them a win.
We can hate on the NCAA all we want, but Michigan has little choice but cooperate at this point.
October 23rd, 2023 at 8:10 PM ^
I honestly don’t think people have been able to process the magnitude of the implications of what will happen if the allegations are proven to be true. The NCAA will pursue this as an “integrity to the game” issue.
October 23rd, 2023 at 4:58 PM ^
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but shut the fuck up already.
October 23rd, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^
The fact he did this without trying to cover his footprints suggests ignorance, not malice. I'd view this as an extenuating fact, not an aggravating one.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:00 PM ^
That's an excellent point. Having others go to games but not trying to hide the fact that he bought and transferred the tickets makes him appear to be truly ignorant of the rules, at the very least.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:11 PM ^
Or aware that he wasn't breaking any rules, which is my theory. This guy wasn't a dumbass. He was a Naval Academy grad and USMC captain who wanted out of the military and into CFB and read the rules books to find a loophole, which he did successfully. It's actually awesome.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:20 PM ^
He might be able to understand this, and even argue this, on a technicality. Heck, even I can read the rules that have been referred to and show how no rule was technically broken. I didn't pass the bar exam, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
But, I don't think the NCAA is interested in technicalities. I think it's interested in a public hanging.
The biggest problem for us isn't what Stalions did, or whether it was technically illegal, or whether there's any competitive advantage gained.
The biggest problem is that the language about head coach responsibility and institutional control is broad enough to drive a bus through it, and the NCAA is revving the engine on their 18-wheeler.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:58 PM ^
But, I don't think the NCAA is interested in technicalities. I think it's interested in a public hanging.
Part of me thinks the reason the investigation is so public at this point is bc the NCAA knows that the letter of the law wasn't broken so they're just trying to sway public opinion on interpretation
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:52 PM ^
And a member of the committee on infractions, who happens to also be a Michigan alum, has it out for Harbaugh for some reason.
October 24th, 2023 at 3:44 PM ^
Yep. Harbaugh ate his lunch from the staff refrigerator, even though it was CLEARLY labeled!!!
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:12 PM ^
double post sigh
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:30 PM ^
This is exactly where I’m at. This guy did what every fan on messages boards does on a daily basis. They try to find tea leaves on what everything means. For crying out loud everyone is doing it now. This guy is a legend imo.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:01 PM ^
Yeah not that it would have an affect on punishment, but I wonder if he didn't know this was against the rules. I definitely didn't know in-person scouting wasn't allowed
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:10 PM ^
My theory is that he knew the rule, but thought he found a loophole since his vast network wasn't employed by the school.
I also didn't know that in person scouting was prohibited. And I'm positive that OSU does it, or at least did do it when Meyer and Tressel were there.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:14 PM ^
It would be pretty awesome for Michigan to present evidence that OSU and other B1G school staffers have purchased and attended UofM games in-person
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:31 PM ^
Someone should absolutely be cross referencing every opponents entire staff against the ticket database.
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:58 PM ^
I have been thinking the same thing. OF COURSE msu had someone at michigan stadium when we played Indiana. OF COURSE Penn state had someone in e. Lansing Saturday night.
It's baffling to me that this could be an actual rule, and since cellphones have had cameras literally thousands of people are recording every game.
I remember hearing lots of stories about opponents illegally filming opponents' practices (w no repercussions). these are live games we're talking about - public events witnessed by many thousands. It's profoundly absurd this warrants anything more than "please stop doing that until we get rid of this stupid rule from 1991".
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:00 PM ^
This is actually our best hope at this point.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:53 PM ^
I didn't realize 3 people was considered a "Vast Network." From ESPN:
Stalions forwarded the tickets he bought to at least three different people in different areas of the country, sources say, which hints at the breadth of the operation.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:30 PM ^
My biggest question is what are they going to find on his computer/cell phone? Assuming everything reported is true, if they don't find actual video evidence I don't see how they could level a punishment that would hold up if Michigan were to sue. It seems pretty obvious what's alleged is true but you can't level punishment based on assumptions.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:25 AM ^
- Well now it appears an intern went to the game. Is an intern a part of the actual staff?
October 24th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
Yes, and 11.6.1.2 says "An institutional staff member may attend a contest in the institution's conference championship or an NCAA championship contest in which a future opponent participates" (and the bylaws make clear that "an NCAA championship contest" doesn't mean "the final," it means all the games that make up a tournament or playoff).
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:12 PM ^
I would argue he was intimately familiar with the rules and identified what appeared to be a blind spot that isn't technically, or at least explicitly, prohibited.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:33 PM ^
Does paying for another persons entry into a football game for the purpose of recording signals make them "affiliated with the program"? I think it boils down to that, unless they have more dirt on Stalions.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:44 PM ^
There's no specific bylaw that I can that overtly includes "affiliates."
The bylaw that Michigan is accused of breaking, 11.6.1, is under the subheading
ATHLETICS PERSONNEL -- SCOUTING OF OPPONENTS -- IN-PERSON SCOUTING PROHIBITED
Is a random college student with no connection to Michigan who is recruited to go watch a game and take a video "Athletics Personnel"? I guess we'll find out.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:11 PM ^
Let's say Stalions went rogue on this (which I'm not fully convinced of that) so he thought he was being clever by finding the loophole (but apparently not clever enough to not buy tickets in his own name and to ask his buddies to sit in different seats), he may have thought he did a good job, but it's not going to end up mattering. Warde isn't going to push back.
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:16 PM ^
Here's an analogy from the world of law. The police may not search your home without a warrant. If a private person searches your house without your permission, finds contraband and then hands it over to the police, that evidence can be used against you at trial, since the police were not involved in obtaining the evidence. If, however, the police asked or instructed the private person to do that, then the evidence will be suppressed, since the person was acting as an agent for the police.
The bottom line will be, harkening back to the Watergate hearings, what did Coach Harbaugh know, and when did he know it?
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:36 PM ^
I like your analogy. So . . . What if the husband or wife of a cop wants their spouse to look good, and asks someone to go search the house and find evidence. Is that person who did the searching still “an agent of the police”. Because maybe no one on staff knew about this activity for 2 years and Stallions just wanted to get hired, proving how good an analyst he was (using video from friends). Then maybe Michigan didn’t know he was doing it this 3rd year either.
To the OP’s question about Stallions whispering in Minter’s ear, I’m assuming analysts do this regardless of whether they watched video of signs
in the end, maybe they were all involved, but I think we have to let it play out and assuming some guy that did this for 2 years free, and was then hired for $55k per year, seems like a WTF. Why would Michigan do this if they knew his methods for 2 years?
October 23rd, 2023 at 7:16 PM ^
The Fourth Amendment’s exclusionary rule is probably not the best parallel for the NCAA internal discipline procedures. But I do like the analogy, just not sure if I agree with your conclusion.
Stalions is a Michigan staffer. He cannot scout games in-person. He is also the police in the analogy, not just Harbaugh. If he directed/coordinated people to go to games (and it certainly seems that way), the people at the games are arguably the agents of Michigan staffers.
But it’s a gray area. Michigan can credibly argue they weren’t agents — the key characteristic of an agency relationship is control, and it seems unlikely Stalions had control over these scouts. Plus, *if no money can be traced back to Michigan,* they can look at the legislative history of the rule and argue this is not what the rule is trying to ban. Given the textual ambiguities of the rule, this is a credible (though far from conclusive) argument, in my opinion.
Ultimately, how this ends probably depends if Michigan is willing to fight and litigate. The NCAA is so generally averse to litigation that the threat could persuade them to accept a favorable settlement that leaves victories intact. Either way, Stalions is probably personally fucked, unless the NCAA somehow decided this is legal.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:13 PM ^
Is it possible they don't think it is illegal to have someone not on the staff do this? It seems pretty clear the rules are written such that it's illegal for staff, but it does not say anything about non-staff. So couldn't you have an argument that you interpret the rules (which are silent if it's illegal for non-staff) that it would be legal?
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:06 PM ^
Unless NCAA has direct evidence that coaches knew, I can UM making this argument if they want on appeal. But, given UM's record, they don't necessarily fight things. That is not how UM operates
October 23rd, 2023 at 6:15 PM ^
I think if the coaches knew, then they would HAVE to say, gee, we didn't think this was against the rules because look at how the rule is written.
But if the coaches knew, including Harbaugh, that was a terrible denial statement from him because he said he didn't instruct anyone on staff "or others" to scout in person.
If the rest of the staff says, oh, Stalions went rogue, then they could still make the technical argument, but like you said, they won't.
October 24th, 2023 at 7:26 PM ^
Right. If the rule was put in place “to promote economic equity among institutions” then why couldn’t someone do it for free? Any school could technically try to recruit someone to do it for free, provided they were not “Athletic Department Personnel “.
Just a thought or 2.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:00 PM ^
To your second question, audibles. Peyton Manning is probably the best example of what an offense who thinks they know what the defense is giving them can do in response.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:03 PM ^
1. They do have pictures of him standing next to Minter.
2. Only if you have time to adjust your defense accordingly. I honestly don't think this has had much of an impact if any. It is against NCAA rules though, so.....
3. Stopping sign stealing from being effective is easy. don't use signs. Teams that run up- tempo offenses that rarely substitute depend on sign usage the most.
I think this is going to come down to whether Stallions used the video footage from his friends himself, or if they did their own interpretation of the signs and then passed it to him. If Stallions used the footage, that will be bad for us and land us some kind of penalty. If he didn't, it's much more in the gray areas IMHO.
(Edit)Recording them offsite is illegal if done by staff. Sign stealing is not.
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:07 PM ^
Can you share the pic of Stalions next to Minter? TIA
October 23rd, 2023 at 5:20 PM ^
Please do NOT